"Christian"

[Hoshiyya]

" At any rate, these abuses were among the things that St John Paul II apologized on behalf of the Church for in his 2000 Jubilee speech. "

Much good it did. Brought those corpses right back to life. Might as well have him apologize for the crusades too (iow, the attempted reconquest of Roman imperial territory), while we're in the business of wasting breath.

 

[Messy]

Please don't use this verse to "justify" the abuses of the inquisition.

.

I don't justify anything. Just saying If someone does that it isn't a christian.
Michael Brown has a good book:


A Deadly, Anti-Israel Theological Error

 

[Open Heart]

...And, all / most people who hear you call yourself a Christian will assume that means you also are in willfull rebellion to the Holy Torah, the Word of God.

Willful rebellion? Gentile believers are not required to keep Jewish law. Universal laws, yes. But not the laws given specifically to Israel. Now if a Gentile wants to keep those laws out of love, more power to them. But they are under no such obligation. So if Christians choose not to keep the sabbath, they are not "in willful rebellion."

If someone identifies themselves as Christian, what reason do I have to assume they are actually Torah-keeping Messianics ?

For myself, I consider my observance of Torah to be rather private. I try not to make others uncomfortable with it. If I go to a church potluck, I pass by the dishes silently and don't make a stink. My close friends know that I attend synagogue, but I don't constantly remind them of it. I see no reason to beat up other Christians over this.

 

[ContraMundum]

I agree, but you must understand:

That may be the dictionary definition, but the DE FACTO definition is more important.

If you tell someone you're Christian they will assume you don't keep the Jewish (ie. God's) law.

That is the ineluctable reality of the matter.

Nice point...but if you say "I'm Messianic" (or worse still "I'm a Messianic Jew") the reaction is far worse in my experience.

 

[ContraMundum]

This is a hard subject for me as I am Sephardic. I have yet to apply. I had no problem with Spain after they annulled the decree, well; they did it before I was born. I have met the King and Queen of Spain when they visited our Synagogue in Seattle and the Rabbi at the time was from Spain. I almost feel that I would lose something if I accept it or dishonor my ancestors. I don’t know.

Half of my family are Sephardic, others Ashkenazi. Both persecuted, some quite recently. The only sane way to live with good mental health when it comes to the "past" is to forgive and move on. To adopt the victim mentality that the community pressures you into is unhealthy. To think that the goyim owe you even further apology or reparation is weak. If you are Jew suffering real, genuine persecution- make aliyah. The best response is a good life and lots of kids. Leave the kvetching to the seculars and Zionists (who don't believe the Torah anyway! Hence the lack of trust in HaShem).

 

[visionary]

Forgiveness for past is good and worth doing. Forgetting the past is dangerous as it will come back to bite you if repentance is not real.

 

[Dave-W]

At any rate, these abuses were among the things that St John Paul II apologized on behalf of the Church for in his 2000 Jubilee speech.

It was probably the work of Dan Juster, Marty Waldman and David C Rudolph from the Toward Jerusalem Council II that got that much out of him.

They are still working for a full repentance and change of heart.

 

[visionary]

As with any group, some are not liking it or swallowing it. http://www.novusordowatch.org/wire/francis-jews-chosen-people.htm

 

[Open Heart]

As with any group, some are not liking it or swallowing it. http://www.novusordowatch.org/wire/francis-jews-chosen-people.htm

Yeah, I checked out the website, and it looks like a typically schismatic group (meaning that it is not Catholic). They DO exist. They may look Catholic on the outside, but because they have broken with the church and with the bishop of Rome, they are basically a protestant sect.

 

[kcmonseysr]

Hello y'all. Good to see that the family hasn't changed all that much . Now that the abuses of some of the Gentle wing of the church have been aired, I just wanted to add that it is interesting to me to see how various members of the Jewish community view the term "Christian". I always seem to have only heard it used interchangeably with the word "Gentile", with no real connection to it's proper use. Nice discussion. Please carry on ;-).

 

[pat34lee]

There's a difference between infallibility and impeccability that RCC haters just don't get. And yet there were some pretty unChristian Popes too- and one wonders about the claim to Papal infallibility when one Pope can declare another a heretic- both couldn't be infallible then, could they?

But as an aside, I do believe in ancient ecumenical consensus as being infallible based on the promises of God.

I believe it is possible to be infallible if you are following Yahweh completely, though few ever do that. As for the popes being infallible, not a chance. It is a political office, not a spiritual one.

 

[pat34lee]

Fanatic is the polite word…

You have no idea what a fanatical party would do then.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

You have no idea what a fanatical party would do then.

How so?

As soon as the government of Israel starts to demonize a particular group of people and force them to live in fenced in enclaves and seriously limits their ability to travel and curtails their rights and removes their citizenship and ability to hold jobs in Israel, only then I will start to worry.

 

[pat34lee]

How so?

As soon as the government of Israel starts to demonize a particular group of people and force them to live in fenced in enclaves and seriously limits their ability to travel and curtails their rights and removes their citizenship and ability to hold jobs in Israel, only then I will start to worry.

All that would be minimally effective. Drive out the Palestinians totally. Capture them, load them on planes and drop them off anywhere that will take them. If nobody will, create a new Palestine for them in Antarctica.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Sounds just like 1936. Funny how easily the oppressed can become the oppressors.

 

[pat34lee]

Sounds just like 1936. Funny how easily the oppressed can become the oppressors.

No. There is a difference between persecuting the innocent and punishing the guilty. It is usually liberals who can't tell the difference, but not always. Like the difference between capital punishment and abortion.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Well it’s a good thing that Jesus is a republican then.

 

[Lulav]

All that would be minimally effective. Drive out the Palestinians totally. Capture them, load them on planes and drop them off anywhere that will take them. If nobody will, create a new Palestine for them in Antarctica.

What about the Palestinians that are Christian? you wanna round them up to and put them in a worst place than a ghetto?

 

[ContraMundum]

All that would be minimally effective. Drive out the Palestinians totally. Capture them, load them on planes and drop them off anywhere that will take them. If nobody will, create a new Palestine for them in Antarctica.

Awfully insensitive. Anyway- the problem with the Palestinians is that no one will take them! When the Jews were booted out en masse by the Muslim nations last century Israel took them in. When the Palestinians started a war that they lost no one would take the displaced Arab refugees. Rather, they stuck them in refugee camps and blamed the Jews.

 

[pat34lee]

Well it’s a good thing that Jesus is a republican then.

Don't ask what your answer makes you.