"Christian"

[Hoshiyya]

What is most important to a true follower of Christ is the meaning of the term Christian as defined in the scriptures and how to embody the qualities of a Christian. Seeing through the eyes of Jehovah/Yahweh and not the heathen is a requirement for overcoming sin.

John 9:39-41 King James Version (KJV)

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

The term Christian has been polluted by those calling themselves Christian.

Ezekiel 7:20-22 King James Version (KJV)

20 As for the beauty of his ornament, he set it in majesty: but they made the images of their abominations and of their detestable things therein: therefore have I set it far from them.

21 And I will give it into the hands of the strangers for a prey, and to the wicked of the earth for a spoil; and they shall pollute it.

22 My face will I turn also from them, and they shall pollute my secret place: for the robbers shall enter into it, and defile it.

Romans 1:23-25 King James Version (KJV)

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

The Bible is not a dictionary.
The word Christian is never defined in the Bible.
The Bible never defines any word.

The inescapable and undeniable reality is that the English word "Christian" is understood to mean, among other things, a person who either doesn't keep the Torah or who even specifically denies the need to keep Torah.

Hence, if you want to advertize that you do not keep Torah, you can call yourself a Christian in public. But if you don't want to give that impression to everyone hearing you, then say something else.

The relevance of words is not "definition" but communication.

Gay just means happy. But if you want to say you are happy, you will not use that word, unless you WANT to be misunderstood !

 

[Elihoenai]

[/size][/font]
Similar to the treatment Yeshua received as well as His Apostles and His Faithful Followers. Similar to the treatment received by some 21st Century Christians from Xtremists like ISIL and Isis.

Hebrews 11:35-38 CJB
35 Women received back their dead resurrected; other people were stretched on the rack and beaten to death, refusing to be ransomed, so that they would gain a better resurrection
36 Others underwent the trials of being mocked and whipped, then chained and imprisoned.
37 They were stoned, sawed in two, murdered by the sword; they went about clothed in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted, mistreated,
38 wandering about in deserts and mountains, living in caves and holes in the ground! The world was not worthy of them!

Thankfully, Messianic Judaism isn't Anti-Christian. It's taken for granted that Messianic Judaism is Pro-Christian so no need to make any reference to "Anti-Christian" views not being tolerated in the MJ Forum's SOP.

Isaiah 44:6-8 King James Version (KJV)

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.






Matthew 10:28-31 King James Version (KJV)

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Isaiah 44:6-8 King James Version (KJV)

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.






Matthew 10:28-31 King James Version (KJV)

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Fear is not the issue. Proper identification is the issue.

Identifying as Christian is usually much safer than identifying as a Jew, by the way.

 

[Open Heart]

Although the term "Christian" was originally a term of derision used by those in Antioch for example, it came to be adopted by believers in Christ. Peter referred to us being Christians: "However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name." I Peter 4:16

Today I call myself a Christian at least as often as I call myself a Catholic or a Hebrew-Catholic. Calling myself a Christian proclaims that I am unashamed to be a follower of Jesus Christ!!!

 

[Elihoenai]

Although the term "Christian" was originally a term of derision used by those in Antioch for example, it came to be adopted by believers in Christ. Peter referred to us being Christians: "However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name." I Peter 4:16

Today I call myself a Christian at least as often as I call myself a Catholic or a Hebrew-Catholic. Calling myself a Christian proclaims that I am unashamed to be a follower of Jesus Christ!!!

The term Christian has been polluted by those calling themselves Christian.

I am a Judeo-Christian that is an outcast from the mainstream denominational and non-denominational churches.

We are seeking true members of Christ's Church to partake with them in his body and to lead and to be led in the Eyes of Jehovah/Yahweh.




John 10:27 King James Version (KJV)

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:





Matthew 13:16-17 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

16 `And happy are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear,

17 for verily I say to you, that many prophets and righteous men did desire to see that which ye look on, and they did not see, and to hear that which ye hear, and they did not hear.

Above post posted on 11th April was moved from New Member Intros forum to Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion forum by moderators.

 

[AbbaLove]

The inescapable and undeniable reality is that the English word "Christian" is understood to mean, among other things, a person who either doesn't keep the Torah or who even specifically denies the need to keep Torah.

The inescapable and undeniable reality is that Messianic Judaism is no more Anti-Christian than they are Anti-Paul. Oh, there will always be some MJs that come across as being Anti-Christian or Anti-Paul ... just the same old, same old religous pretense of superiority.

What a pity all the divisive walls religious man erects and of course it's mostly those OTHER walls that are the problem. Before there were "Christians" it was the Northern Kingdom against the Southern Kingdom OR was it the Southern Kingdom against the Northern Kingdom OR was it more a case that you wouldn't pin a Medal on either. So, too with Messianic Judaism and Christianity with each able to see the blind spot in the other, but not their own blind spot. More often than not it's usually the one that is the least loving and/or most judgmental that ... well, do i need to say anymore lest you say my blind spot is blinder than your blind spot

Matthew 18:2-4 CJB
2 He called a child to him, stood him among them,
3 and said, “Yes! I tell you that unless you change and become like little children, you won’t even enter the Kingdom of Heaven!
4 So the greatest in the Kingdom is whoever makes himself as humble as this child.

 

[Open Heart]

The term Christian has been polluted by those calling themselves Christian.

Do you mean by sins committed by Christians or do you mean by doctrinal impurity?

 

[Elihoenai]

Do you mean by sins committed by Christians or do you mean by doctrinal impurity?

Both! Those who call themselves Christian and have received false doctrine do what they see. This produces a misrepresentation of a Christian.






John 8:38 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

38 I -- that which I have seen with my Father do speak, and ye, therefore, that which ye have seen with your father -- ye do.'






John 8:44 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

44 `Ye are of a father -- the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do; he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh, because he is a liar -- also his father.





John 9:39-41 King James Version (KJV)

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

 

[Messy]

I thought they were called christians because they were as anointed as Christ and doing the same works.
Thorben Tondergaard speaks about disciples because anyone can call himself a christian. It is weird that you have to use another word because people who aren't even anointed nor follow Him call themselves that.

 

[Open Heart]

Both! Those who call themselves Christian and have received false doctrine do what they see. This produces a misrepresentation of a Christian.

Well, I agree that Christians have committed great evils down through time, but it doesn't surprise me. The church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for perfect people.

I would disagree with you, however, about doctrinal impurity. I think the church has it right. I think when Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church, He didn't lie.

 

[Elihoenai]

Well, I agree that Christians have committed great evils down through time, but it doesn't surprise me. The church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for perfect people.

I would disagree with you, however, about doctrinal impurity. I think the church has it right. I think when Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church, He didn't lie.

2 Peter 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV)

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:






Genesis 17:1 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

17 And Abram is a son of ninety and nine years, and Jehovah appeareth unto Abram, and saith unto him, `I [am] God Almighty, walk habitually before Me, and be thou perfect;





Matthew 5:48 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

48 ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who [is] in the heavens is perfect.

 

[Open Heart]

2 Peter 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV)

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

...etc

I'm not sure what any of these verses have to do with the church.

 

[Lulav]

The snippet about church being a hospital for sinners is something I've heard a lot, it's not my own idea.
I certainly think many of the popes have been horrendous sinners.
The inquisition in particular was the sin of the Spanish government, not the Pope.

I didn't say the Spanish Inquisition. The institution of Inquisition still remains today just under a different guise. You are apparently speaking of Torquemada, but I am speaking of the whole history of it.

A few facts

The Inquisition was instituted in Rome by Pope Innocent III (1198-1216)

That's quite a oxymoron isn't it?

In 1233 the proceeding Pope, Gregory IX established it to combat heresy in France.
1255 saw it all across Europe except in Britain and Scandinavia.

Punishments included confinement to dungeons, physical abuse and torture. Those who reconciled with the church were still punished and many had their property confiscated, as well as were banished from public life. Those who never confessed were burned at the stake without strangulation; those who did confess were strangled first.

It originally was against Christian heresies but the Rambams books soon turned the Inquisitors eye towards the Jews.

Talmud burning became rampant in 1242 which was followed up by a mass burning of JEWS in France in 1288.

It wasn't until 1481 that the Inquisition turned towards Jews in Spain at the request of Queen Isabella. Many Jews were murdered and it then overflowed into Portugal. The Inquisition continued into the 18th century there and was not abolished there until 1808. An estimated 31,912 heretics were burned at the stake, 17,659 were burned in effigy and 291,450 made reconciliations in the Spanish Inquisition.

It did not remain on the continent but actually spread across the sea to the New World and in Brazil and Mexico Spanish tribunals were set up there.

Burning anyone, Christian, heathen or Jew for not obeying your religion is unacceptable not to mention ungodly.

Show me one place in the whole Bible G-d commands people to convert or burn?

 

[Elihoenai]

I'm not sure what any of these verses have to do with the church.

False Christs and false Prophets produce false churches.



Matthew 24:24 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

24 for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.

 

[Messy]

Burning anyone, Christian, heathen or Jew for not obeying your religion is unacceptable not to mention ungodly.

Show me one place in the whole Bible G-d commands people to convert or burn?

They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. 3 And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

I’m not seeing convert or burn in those verses.

 

[JeffTheLearner]

I am a Separatist fully unashamed of practicing the act of Separatism ...I have no clue why people are so obsessed with false "unity" where there is no unity. If someone does not follow Torah, or is a dull eared, half sighted hypocrite, I have no problems disassociating myself from such people, or even openly denouncing them ...In fact scripture instructs me too.

"Now in return, I speak as to my children, you also be open wide. Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers, for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

What agreement has Christ with Belial? Or what portion has a believer with an unbeliever? What agreement has a temple of God with idols? For we are a temple of the living God. Even as God said, “I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

Therefore, “‘Come out from among them, and be separate,’ says YHVH. ‘Touch no unclean thing. I will receive you. I will be to you a Father. You will be to me sons and daughters,’ says YHVH Almighty.” ~(2Corinthians 6:13-18)

 

[Messy]

I’m not seeing convert or burn in those verses.

No, lately someone mentioned that text because of people like Calvin.

 

[Open Heart]

They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. 3 And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me.

Please don't use this verse to "justify" the abuses of the inquisition.

The inquisition was originally set up to investigate baptized Catholics of heresy. It went wrong in two ways over the years. The first was to investigate those whose baptisms were forced (and therefore invalid--they were not Catholics and not under the jurisdiction of the Inquisition). The second was that it did not have our modern understanding of freedom of religion, that a Catholic has the right as a human being to repudiate church teaching and even apostacize without fear of repercussion. The first problem is without excuse. The second can perhaps be forgiven as being before their time.

At any rate, these abuses were among the things that St John Paul II apologized on behalf of the Church for in his 2000 Jubilee speech.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Although the term "Christian" was originally a term of derision used by those in Antioch for example, it came to be adopted by believers in Christ. Peter referred to us being Christians: "However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name." I Peter 4:16

Today I call myself a Christian at least as often as I call myself a Catholic or a Hebrew-Catholic. Calling myself a Christian proclaims that I am unashamed to be a follower of Jesus Christ!!!

...And, all / most people who hear you call yourself a Christian will assume that means you also are in willfull rebellion to the Holy Torah, the Word of God.

Even other Messianics, who you could otherwise identify yourself to by calling yourself Messianic instead, will think you are anti-Torah. They won't know you're a fellow Messianic.


If someone identifies themselves as Christian, what reason do I have to assume they are actually Torah-keeping Messianics ?
There's less than one in a million chance of that being true.
It is more statistically probable that they are actually sex criminals calling themselves Christians, rather than Messianics calling themselves Christians.