Christian Veganism

[nebulaJP]

In God’s future kingdom, the whole world will be vegan:

Isaiah 11 (NIV)

6The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.
7The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8The infant will play near the cobra’s den, and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

The same as it was originally:

Genesis 1 (NIV)

29Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
30And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

I already know that in the world’s fallen state, animal use is TEMPORARILY ALLOWED. But for the vast majority of people living in modern society it is unnecessary.

How can you say you desire the arrival of the kingdom of God while engaging in practices that will be banished then?

 

[Architeuthus]

Is there a question about Christianity here?

 

[nebulaJP]

Is there a question about Christianity here?

The Bible indicates that, even though animal use is currently allowed, God’s ideal is for all creatures to be vegan. If God’s kingdom arrived, all animal use/killing would stop immediately. I believe most animal consuming Christians would say that they desire for God’s kingdom to be established but this doesn’t seem genuine.

The question was:
How can you say you desire the arrival of the kingdom of God while engaging in practices that will be banished then?

To elaborate:
If you really wanted God’s rule on earth, wouldn’t you be living as if God's kingdom had already arrived as much as possible right now?

 

[Architeuthus]

So not a question then, but a statement.

 

[nebulaJP]

So not a question then, but a statement.

I am asking about the apparent contradiction between word and action.

 

[football5680]

How can you say you desire the arrival of the kingdom of God while engaging in practices that will be banished then?

The apostles ate meat and allowed other people to eat meat. Everything they did was for the Kingdom of God so we should follow their example. Even Jesus ate meat and he is the King of the Kingdom.

When the Kingdom does come I don't think we will be eating meat but not because God wants us to be vegetarians. Death will no longer be a concept and the power of God will sustain us. Right now we must eat to simply survive but this won't matter in the future.

 

[nebulaJP]

The apostles ate meat and allowed other people to eat meat. Everything they did was for the Kingdom of God so we should follow their example. Even Jesus ate meat and he is the King of the Kingdom.

When the Kingdom does come I don't think we will be eating meat but not because God wants us to be vegetarians. Death will no longer be a concept and the power of God will sustain us. Right now we must eat to simply survive but this won't matter in the future.

Jesus and the apostles lived a nomadic lifestyle, traveling around preaching and kept no possessions. Should Christians today follow their example in that regard as well (or just cherry-pick the parts they like)?

Today, in 2015, this is a HUGE social justice issue. For one thing, meat eating in affluent nations is the cause of world hunger. In the U.S., 40% of corn and 67% of soybeans are fed to farm animals, rather than the world’s hungry. And modern animal agribusiness creates untold environmental damage and misery for animals.

Also, except for certain people living traditional subsistence lifestyles - we do NOT have have to eat meat simply to survive.

 

[nebulaJP]

the power of God will sustain us.

Is that found in scripture? No:

29Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

30And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

7The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

 

[TheBarrd]

Is that found in scripture? No:

29Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

30And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

7The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

And then something happened that changed the face of the earth...changed the very atmosphere of the earth...and changed our dietary needs:
When the fountains of the deep were broken up and the windows of heaven were opened, evidently something changed, because God issued new instructions:
Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Gen 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Still, there is one very important restriction:
Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Something precious was lost...our friendship with the animals. Just as God says, they fear us, and with good reason. You may be a Vegan, but the animal kingdom still fears you, as well as it does any meat eater. I have often wondered whether this new law, that we must kill to eat, is not a reminder of what we had become...

 

[nebulaJP]

You said our dietary needs changed and that we must kill to eat (or what, die?). Any evidence for that? Aren’t vegans living proof that this is not the case? That passage is a CONCESSION to meat eating, not a mandate. What about HIS dietary needs?:

 

[Tess]

When the Kingdom does come I don't think we will be eating meat, but not because God wants us to be vegetarians now. Death will no longer be a concept and the power of God will sustain us. Right now we must eat to simply survive but this won't matter in the future.

I agree with this

 

[TheBarrd]

You said our dietary needs changed and that we must kill to eat (or what, die?). Any evidence for that? Aren’t vegans living proof that this is not the case? That passage is a CONCESSION to meat eating, not a mandate. What about HIS dietary needs?:

From what I understand, it is difficult to get enough protein on a Vegan diet. Yes, I am sad for the child in the picture...however, I don't see how going Vegan is going to help him. What he needs is food, not a principle.

 

[TheBarrd]

You said our dietary needs changed and that we must kill to eat (or what, die?). Any evidence for that? Aren’t vegans living proof that this is not the case? That passage is a CONCESSION to meat eating, not a mandate. What about HIS dietary needs?:

How do you get that the passage I quoted was a "concession"? It sounds an awful lot like God was adding meat to our diets. Why do you think He'd do that, if He didn't want us to eat meat?

I think if I took that kid to McDonald's, he'd scarf down a couple of happy meals and a large shake, and love it. What do you think?

 

[nebulaJP]

From what I understand, it is difficult to get enough protein on a Vegan diet. Yes, I am sad for the child in the picture...however, I don't see how going Vegan is going to help him. What he needs is food, not a principle.

It's not even 'impossible' to get enough protein? Just 'difficult'? Well put a little effort into it! I can you promise you that you will not be hospitalized for 'protein deficiency'. Each and every plant food contains protein. That is where the animals get it in the first place.

In the U.S., we feed the majority of our grain to livestock. This grain can be used to feed starving humans. So, you going vegan will create surplus grain which doesn't have to be fed to livestock and can instead be shipped to the world's hungry (who are starving to death).

http://features.peta2.com/making-the-connection/world-hunger.aspx

 

[nebulaJP]

How do you get that the passage I quoted was a "concession"? It sounds an awful lot like God was adding meat to our diets. Why do you think He'd do that, if He didn't want us to eat meat?

For human survival, there are times and places in which animal consumption is necessary. But if you are saying that in Genesis 9:3 animal product consumption is commanded by God, (so vegans / vegetarians are sinning,) then you have very unorthodox beliefs which are not in line with most evangelical Christians.

Example: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Christian-vegetarian.html

 

[football5680]

Is that found in scripture? No:

29Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

30And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

7The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

So you are saying, when the Kingdom comes and God has perfected the Earth, it will still be necessary for us to eat to survive? If we don't eat and we die, where do we go?

 

[nebulaJP]

So you are saying, when the Kingdom comes and God has perfected the Earth, it will still be necessary for us to eat to survive? If we don't eat and we die, where do we go?

They could not have died in the pre-fall state of Genesis 1:29-30, yet they were given green plants for food. Regardless of whether or not eating is necessary, that is God's ideal diet for us.

 

[football5680]

Jesus and the apostles lived a nomadic lifestyle, traveling around preaching and kept no possessions. Should Christians today follow their example in that regard as well (or just cherry-pick the parts they like)?

Today, in 2015, this is a HUGE social justice issue. For one thing, meat eating in affluent nations is the cause of world hunger. In the U.S., 40% of corn and 67% of soybeans are fed to farm animals, rather than the world’s hungry. And modern animal agribusiness creates untold environmental damage and misery for animals.

Also, except for certain people living traditional subsistence lifestyles - we do NOT have have to eat meat simply to survive.

To start off with, this is your argument so you must prove the point. My point was not that Jesus and the apostles ate meat so we must do likewise, it was that Jesus and the apostles did eat meat and allowed the people who followed them to eat meat so how can you condemn this? Whether somebody wants to be a vegetarian or not has no bearing on Christianity.

Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. (Romans 14:13-14)

The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." (Acts 10:15)

If you do not think that eating meat is right then you do not have to do it and I have no problem with that. You shouldn't try to use the Bible to justify this position because it does not support this position in the first place and Jesus and the apostles told us not to. Stick to arguments that speak about the social impact because in this regard you actually have good points.

 

[ViaCrucis]

There won't be any governments, any kings, queens, princes, presidents, or prime ministers. There won't be any taxes. There won't be any cars or traffic lights. Etc.

That doesn't change the fact that, right now, there are taxes to be paid, we can drive cars or ride bikes.

Legalistic veganism is not beneficial to the kingdom--it's just legalism, and what's more, moralism. If one is conscientiously opposed to eating meat or animal products, then they should abide their conscience and become vegan. But that is not a command we have from God, and it is therefore dangerous and sinful to impose it upon people.

Then will be quite different from now. But that doesn't mean every activity that exists now that won't exist then is wrong. Christ says that in the resurrection of the dead people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; but we do not prohibit marriage, because marriage is good and beautiful.

The problem with moralism is that, selectively, it arbitrates morals not based on any actual moral command from God ("Don't steal", "Don't murder", etc) but arbitrates them quite arbitrarily. "Don't touch, don't taste" is the attitude St. Paul condemns in Colossians because moralism benefits nobody and helps no one. There is a freedom of conscience on matters neither forbidden or commanded. What we eat is one such example. Abide by your conscience on what and how you eat, and don't let anyone judge you on matters so trivial. That's the biblical and Christian teaching on the matter.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[nebulaJP]

To start off with, this is your argument so you must prove the point. My point was not that Jesus and the apostles ate meat so we must do likewise, it was that Jesus and the apostles did eat meat and allowed the people who followed them to eat meat so how can you condemn this? Whether somebody wants to be a vegetarian or not has no bearing on Christianity.

If you do not think that eating meat is right then you do not have to do it and I have no problem with that. You shouldn't try to use the Bible to justify this position because it does not support this position in the first place and Jesus and the apostles told us not to. Stick to arguments that speak about the social impact because in this regard you actually have good points.

I condemn it on the grounds that today, in 2015, we have 805 million starving people to feed, animal cruelty inherent in commercial meat/dairy/egg production, as well as extensive ecological damage from animal agribusiness.

You cannot let what the apostles did or allowed in their day to be your basis for what you condemn in the present. If you do, then you would have to ask how one can condemn slavery or unequal rights for women. Things written in the epistles were used for centuries to justify these institutions.

And the Bible does support my position because it teaches mercy and compassion, not cold indifference to the suffering and death of God’s creatures seen in modern, commercial animal exploitation.

11“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

The question is not what Jesus ate but what would he eat in today's world. And this isn't about personal purity or diet having any spiritual significance. It's an ethical concern particular to our times. Eating meat you found in a dumpster is ethical. But having no concern for the world's hungry or the miserable lives of animals in CFOs, and contributing to this problem by supporting it with your money is unethical.