Christian practices: church, etc.

[talitha]

I hope you do go back and read my previous post because I put some of my heart in it.

On the repentance issue, I think we need to repent of our "good" works as well as our "evil" works. <-- I think this is Wisdom.

A couple of months ago, I was extremely depressed. I felt like if Jesus existed then I would like to kick his butt. I felt like my whole life was designed to give me opportunities that I would squander so I could live with the knowledge of my failures. I was angry to think that I'm only 45 and might have to live another 40 years with my sole purpose to make other people feel good - "things might be bad, but at least I'm not a total loser like that cloudyday."
Wow, you sound a lot like me in my bad moments. :o

So I went to sleep and had a dream. There was a person made out of light in the distance. I had a dream with something like that light about 15 years earlier, and it had identified itself as "the devil". That first time "the devil" took me to a place where I could see the universe from the outside - like God. I could see the past and the future and everything made sense. I was begging "the devil" to let me stay there, but he told me I would go back to this dream life and hiding from the truth and not be able to remember anything he explained to me (because the concepts were too bizarre to comprehend in this normal state). But then he showed me myself in the future very old and bitter. At that time my life was going up instead of down, so I couldn't understand what could possibly make me that bitter. But now I have a better idea.
The devil is a liar. This dream reminds me of the temptation of Eve, I mean the part where he seemed to offer you knowledge..... and he was trying to steal your hope, to make you into that bitter old person.

But this time the light instantly tackled me and pinned me on my back where I couldn't breath. All I could think was "I guess this is the end of me, and I'm getting what I deserve, sorry for making such a mess of my life, God."
I have been attacked like that by an evil spirit in real life, where I couldn't get a breath - until I said "Jesus!" It's really scary.
Then instantly the thing that was attacking me was gone
You cried out to God and He answered you.
and I could see a star in the sky with a smudgy light on the left and another smudgy light on the right. I was aware that I was in the middle of saying "Lord, have mercy".
I love that He gave you the dream and the interpretation too.
The star in my dream was Jesus and His light and love was shining on me. I felt like being a little chipmunk in the woods coming out and there is my Creator to pat me on the head. It seemed like all the good and bad in my life was basically irrelevant to Jesus. He was looking past all that to see something hidden in me that He's really after. It reminded me of the parable about the treasure buried in the field or the pearl in the oyster.
That is soooo beautiful. And true.
Then it seemed like Jesus said I should follow Him, the star, and not the smudge on His left or the smudge on His right. The smudge on His left was rituals and the smudge on His right was Holy Spirit experiences (or something - that part was less clear).
That sounds like Him. Rituals and "experiences" or "manifestations" appeared with him, because rituals can lead to him (but not necessarily) and manifestations can come from him (but not necessarily). But it is true - HE should be our focus.
He said I should put 100% of my hope in His mercy and if I tried to strengthen my hope by adding something such as rituals or Holy Spirit experiences (or whatever), then I would be 100% off-target.
Yes, because those things are not what give us hope; we should not trust in them but in HIM.
It was like Jesus was saying "I am the Way the Light and the Truth - period". (These weren't words, but ideas that popped into my mind.)
AMEN!

So the whole dream was over in a couple of seconds - like a flashbulb. I woke up and was really happy for about a week. I know it could have been mental illness too, but that is the best "experience" I've ever had. Most of my "experiences" are negative.
Oh gracious sakes alive. It was not mental illness. It was Jesus. Big difference. Don't let anything take it away from you, not your own self-doubt, and not the well-meaning words of someone who denies that Jesus can give us those experiences.

I've thought about the message, and I don't think it was a condemnation of practices in denominations but a condemnation of how people like myself understand those practices. Also after seeing how Jesus seemed to feel about me, I can't imagine Him losing any of His sheep.
He doesn't "lose" his sheep. But, as the Bible says, like sheep, we have all gone astray. God has laid our fault on Him, but not everyone will accept this gift. You are free to say no.
It seems like He is going to gather everybody to Himself and take them through the gate. Probably everybody must discard everything they think they have after they die (such as good works, church rituals, spirituality, etc.) and then they can finally see the mercy of Jesus and enter heaven - like the camel going through the eye of the needle.
That sounds great, but it has to happen in this life. And like the rich, young ruler who came to Jesus at night, many go away sorrowful (bitter?) after they find out what He is requiring of them.

Also, I hope everybody takes this with a grain of salt. It could have been my imagination. I'm just trying to explain where I'm coming from in my concerns about church and practices.
You are indeed a human being with faults just like me and all of us, but the Lord has revealed some things to you. You will be blessed if you say "yes" to him and do not go away sorrowful.

 

[cloudyday2]

20 years ago when I tried to find a church, I simply visited a different church every Sunday.
Were these "spiritual experiences" of yours twenty years ago, or were they more recent?

It seems like every 10 years or so I would try to be a Christian. The "being saved" and "filled with the Holy Spirit" never seemed to work for me. I would try and it seemed like nothing would change. So I was an atheist reluctantly, based on lack of evidence for anything else. I decided that either God didn't exist or I was somebody predestined for damnation. So I would think well if that's the way it is then screw you, God.

It didn't seem like such a big deal. Now I worry about getting it wrong, because it seems like things are trying to guide me somewhere.
Things? What things?

When I have "seen" Jesus and "seen" the devil or "seen" other things, I've never been sure if they are something else (maybe even my subconscious) grabbing religious symbols as readily available masks to guide or misguide me.

An old friend of mine was a Catholic who lived with a lot of guilt. He was afraid he would die in a car accident and go to hell, so every time he rounded a corner, he would grab his Saint Jude's medal and his crucifix and cross himself. Yup, that takes two hands, and he almost crashed once or twice that I know of. (no, I am NOT saying that all Catholics are like that)

Well at least that makes me feel better. Even though I haven't been to church for over a year I sometimes find myself starting to cross myself. It's kind of embarrassing - especially if there are people around.

A week ago I read a fortune in a fortune cookie "you will meet an old friend". Then I realized with my superstitious inclinations I would probably meet somebody and that would seem to fulfill the prediction and make me more superstitious. I just hate that, because I never used to be superstitious.

Of course the Eastern Orthodox church has a lot of ritual, and that made me uncomfortable.
I really want to visit an Orthodox church. I tried to talk with a priest when I was in Russia, but he wanted nothing to do with me.

I don't know about foreign countries, but I know the Antiochian Orthodox and the Orthodox Church of America are more open to converts. The other types are more oriented towards preserving ethnic traditions among immigrants. I was in a very liberal church for Orthodox. Most of the people were cradle Orthodox, but the liturgy was mostly in English and people were nice to me (except maybe the priest wasn't very nice sometimes in my opinion).

You don't have to clean up your belief system and do things right before saying yes to him. You simply say yes to HIM (not to some particular church or anything, just to him), put yourself in his hands, and trust him to lead you, and to change you as HE sees fit to change you.

Thanks, that sounds like good advice. I'm not sure exactly what you mean though. The "being saved" conversion experience has never happened for me. I feel very jaded about that.

 

[hedrick]

The impression I got from "seeing" Jesus (or imagining) was that He loves everybody so much He would do literally anything for us - including breaking the rules. I think when He thanked God that not one of His sheep were lost He meant nobody past, present, or future... Buddhist, atheist, or whatever. The idea that He would lose any of His sheep doesn't match how He seemed to me - of course I might have imagined Him to be the way I wanted Him to be or something.

But the church issue and how to live and what to believe is my real problem. I feel like I need to do something, but I don't know what.

Of course God is willing to break rules for us. But the Christian life isn't primarily about rules, though at times rules can be helpful. I'm glad you're sure that God cares about you. But salvation isn't just about avoiding hell. It's about living the kind of lives that God wants us to. Not because he requires it to be "saved", but because the point of salvation is to rebuild our motivations and lives.

So if you're sure that God loves you, I'd expect you to want to respond to that by loving others, and also by getting together with and worshipping and serving with your brothers and sisters. Yes, I think you should be baptized. It's a way to symbolize and make visible your commit to follow God and be part of his people. Physical symbols can help us, since we're physical beings.

 

[talitha]

It seems like every 10 years or so I would try to be a Christian. The "being saved" and "filled with the Holy Spirit" never seemed to work for me. I would try and it seemed like nothing would change.
Changes are not always immediate. I am interested to know how people led you into these things how you "tried", and how long it took for you to decide it didn't work.
So I was an atheist reluctantly, based on lack of evidence for anything else. I decided that either God didn't exist or I was somebody predestined for damnation. So I would think well if that's the way it is then screw you, God.
I feel you, but there are other possibilities. One is that the evidence exists, but you don't have it. We have to remember that God is more interested in our hearts than he is in our brains.

When I have "seen" Jesus and "seen" the devil or "seen" other things, I've never been sure if they are something else (maybe even my subconscious) grabbing religious symbols as readily available masks to guide or misguide me. oh, okay, I see..

A week ago I read a fortune in a fortune cookie "you will meet an old friend". Then I realized with my superstitious inclinations I would probably meet somebody and that would seem to fulfill the prediction and make me more superstitious. I just hate that, because I never used to be superstitious. Don't worry. Our minds do crazy things sometimes.

Thanks, that sounds like good advice. I'm not sure exactly what you mean though. The "being saved" conversion experience has never happened for me. I feel very jaded about that.
Hey, did you read my last post?

 

[RaiseTheDead]

My ideas about Christian theology are partly from personal "spiritual" or "delusional" experiences that I've had. For example, a couple of times I thought I "saw" Jesus. Both times I was totally amazed by the love He seemed to have for people for no reason. It went way beyond the normal "Jesus loves everybody" that people say all the time.

So when I sometimes believe in Jesus, I have a hard time believing that things like baptism, communion, accepting Jesus with my heart, attending church, being a good person, or anything else are very important. Everything depends on Jesus loving us. And Jesus seems to see something of hidden value in each of us. Like Jesus discovers a treasure buried in a field (we are the field) and He sells everything to buy that field.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure what I should be doing. I've been reading about Buddhism and meditation, because those things make perfect sense to me. But on the other hand, my "spiritual" experiences involve Christianity.

Thanks for any ideas.

I would gather that you have not been delusional, at all! We can all question reality - but that way lies madness. Come to terms with the fact that there is a Spiritual realm, and you are a Spiritual person.

And it sure seems from your words, that you know my God!

 

[RaiseTheDead]

something a Orthodox monk said in a book I read.

They've got some GREAT stuff, and really deep ...

Thanks, I will read that link about Buddhism.

I will try to gather my thoughts when things slow down and list the various experiences that seemed to involve Christian ideas or symbols to see what people think.

Do know that some have merged concepts from both these Faiths. Thomas Merton?

Looking forward to your symbolism (us mystics have to stick together)

 

[RaiseTheDead]

The impression I got from "seeing" Jesus (or imagining) was that He loves everybody so much He would do literally anything for us - including breaking the rules.

Yes indeed! He did Mainly: when you die, you're supposed to STAY DEAD.

Have you read much on the harrowing of hell? (Not to make a cheap plug for my username or anything

 

[RaiseTheDead]

Suddenly I became extremely paranoid and I thought people were going to kill me, kill my family, kill my friends, etc. I could barely walk through the airport I felt such a feeling of doom.

So for a week or two I didn't sleep much.

*Ahem* This is called - conviction.

Praise God that He is still in the process of convicting us of our sins!

it also seems stupid that God would care about a ritual. In fact it seems wrong to me.

May I humbly suggest, that there might be more to this that you have not yet discovered? As in, what happens when we are Baptized? (Also as in, my username is a clue)

 

[RaiseTheDead]

know that I have a warped perspective due to all these "experiences".

And how does one "unwarp" our POV?

Psa 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed [thereto] according to thy word."

(Romans 12:2) "be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind"

20 years ago when I tried to find a church, I simply visited a different church every Sunday. It didn't seem like such a big deal. Now I worry about getting it wrong, because it seems like things are trying to guide me somewhere. I can't imagine why anybody like God or Satan would care what I do (because I know I won't accomplish much of anything)

If I may be so bold: STOP speaking satan's words, and STOP thinking his thoughts after him.

Also I struggle with feeling superstitious. I hate that. I hate ritual, because that seems superstitious. Of course the Eastern Orthodox church has a lot of ritual, and that made me uncomfortable. If I was God I would make my religion more natural and sensible like Buddhism.

Have you ever thought that God never established religion? I mean, where do you see Jesus teaching how to make a fundraising drive for a building project?

There is only ONE positive mention of religion in the entire Bible. Do you know what it is? (That seems to be what God cares about)

 

[RaiseTheDead]

But this time the light instantly tackled me and pinned me on my back where I couldn't breath. All I could think was "I guess this is the end of me, and I'm getting what I deserve, sorry for making such a mess of my life, God." Then instantly the thing that was attacking me was gone

Then it seemed like Jesus said I should follow Him, the star, and not the smudge on His left or the smudge on His right. The smudge on His left was rituals and the smudge on His right was Holy Spirit experiences (or something - that part was less clear). He said I should put 100% of my hope in His mercy and if I tried to strengthen my hope by adding something such as rituals or Holy Spirit experiences (or whatever), then I would be 100% off-target. (These weren't words, but ideas that popped into my mind.)

So the whole dream was over in a couple of seconds - like a flashbulb. Most of my "experiences" are negative.

I've thought about the message, and I don't think it was a condemnation of practices in denominations but a condemnation of how people like myself understand those practices.

Probably everybody must discard everything they think they have after they die (such as good works, church rituals, spirituality, etc.) and then they can finally see the mercy of Jesus and enter heaven

Also, I hope everybody takes this with a grain of salt. It could have been my imagination. I'm just trying to explain where I'm coming from in my concerns about church and practices.

No sir, I'm not about to take that with any grain of salt. This is the Gospel! embrace it. Live it. Love it!

Very inspiring btw, and thank you for sharing that experience. (Also, there is a sub-forum specifically for dreams and visions. It seems to me they should be reserved for those that specifically came from God, and you certainly do know how to tell when they have.)

 

[cloudyday2]

It seems like every 10 years or so I would try to be a Christian. The "being saved" and "filled with the Holy Spirit" never seemed to work for me. I would try and it seemed like nothing would change.
Changes are not always immediate. I am interested to know how people led you into these things how you "tried", and how long it took for you to decide it didn't work.

My first effort at being saved was probably around age 12 when I ended-up in a summer camp where they were pushing everybody to get saved. Being an Episcopalian they felt I wasn't saved, so they were giving me a guilt trip - bad experience.

My next effort was in college. I was attending First Foursquare Church of Van Nuys which was Jack Hayford's mega church. That lasted six months or a year. I decided to get baptized as an adult, because I hoped that would fix me up. The baptism "coach" told everybody to practice babbling so they could speak in tongues after the baptism. That didn't work for me and it made me suspect the Holy Spirit stuff was mostly phony.

Then about 10 years after college I tried again. I had prayed and felt a little something like maybe the Holy Spirit. So I wanted to attend church and maybe develop that. For several months I went to a different church each week. Interestingly, I went to one church and something weird happened. The church was a modern non-denominational church in a shopping mall. There were plenty of empty chairs, but this guy came and sat right beside me. Then after the service he said something like that he had never been to this church but the Holy Spirit told him to come there and pray for me. He seemed to know that I had an addiction to inappropriate contentography. But my reaction was to treat him like a crazy person and drive away. It made me angry that God told something embarrassing and personal about me to a stranger. So now I'll share it with strangers. I still have that problem too unfortunately. In some ways it is harder than alcohol addiction, because people don't try to poor alcohol in your mouth whenever you turn on the TV or look at a magazine stand in the grocery store. Anyway, eventually I ended-up attending a Nazarene church that I liked because it seemed unpretentious and old-fashioned. I liked their music. But I quit after a month or so.

Last but not least I decided I would join the Eastern Orthodox church (same time as I had my paranoia). I managed that for a couple of years. I really tried hard for me. I had unresolved questions about magic, Hinduism, rituals, ecumenism, etc., because those things all showed up in my "experiences" and not knowing what to believe about them just worried me. Eventually I read a book called "The Gurus, the Young Man, and Elder Paisios" and that book started a long period of depression due to concerns it raised in my mind. Also I had an upsetting hallucination around that time too. I started feeling very suspicious about the Orthodoxy and Christianity in general. Gradually I fizzled out.

Hey, did you read my last post?

Yes, I was trying to compose a response, but it takes a long time for me to write things. I write them and then I decide it sounds wrong so I start over... and over... and over... Finally I just gave up. But I appreciate the responses and they have good information. Also thanks to everybody else who has responded.

 

[food4thought]

It's really hard to describe the experiences or delusions, but here are some of the issues I'm confused about:

I was baptised and grew up Episcopalian. Then in college I started having doubts and decided maybe if I was baptised again as an adult that I would experience the Holy Spirit. That didn't work, so I gradually became an atheist for 20 years.

Not unusual. Many who grow up in church never make the faith their own and come to a true relationship with Jesus. From what you said above regarding your baptism, it sounds like your heart wasn't right with Jesus... you weren't identifying with Christ in His death and resurrection, you were looking for God to give you an "experience"... and of course then your baptism was only an empty ritual. That is my thoughts about that, but I could be wrong given my lack of knowledge about your true intentions. I felt nothing special when I was baptized, but just before being baptized (after I had already accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior), I discovered a Spiritual gift that God had given me upon being saved... after 27 years of being afraid of large groups, I found myself standing before 500-1000 people declaring my faith and exhorting these people to share their faith with others.

A few years ago, I decided that I wasn't a real atheist because I would still pray to God sometimes. So I decided I ought to go back to church and clean-up my life. I had vacation reservations to meet a friend for several days, but I decided I was going to quit drinking after that trip. It wasn't that I believed in God, but I decided to give it another try.

That weekend a few strange things happened, but I didn't see a pattern. However, when the airplane arrived home one of the passengers made a comment to another passenger. I don't know what they were talking about, but part of it was "do you worship the devil" - those words seemed to trigger a mental breakdown in me. I sometimes wonder if I was drugged and hypnotised to react that way. Suddenly I became extremely paranoid and I thought people were going to kill me, kill my family, kill my friends, etc. I could barely walk through the airport I felt such a feeling of doom.

Wow... that sounds like a really scary experience. It sounds to me like a demonic attack on your mind. My experience has been different in specifics, but the same type of attack. Once I began being paranoid about others hearing my thoughts, thoughts began repeating in my head, like the n-word repeating over and over every time I saw a black man (NEVER before), this filled me with shame and fear that my thoughts would result in me being assaulted and possibly killed. Other things like this happened to me over the course of years.

So for a week or two I didn't sleep much. I read the Psalms out loud, because otherwise I could hear people chanting (or imagined I could). I was getting bored with the Psalms, and something suggested I read the Nicene Creed. So I read the Nicene Creed and when I reached the line "I acknowledge one baptism" it seemed like when Paul told the soldiers that he was a Roman citizen. I went from being paranoid to being happy. So that made me think that my infant baptism as an Episcopalian was meaningful.

I honestly don't know what to think of infant baptism... your experience here is kind of ambiguous, IMO.

So that's why I think baptism might be important. But it also seems stupid that God would care about a ritual. In fact it seems wrong to me.

Baptism is for a person who has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and it is an outward expression of the inward reality that happens upon being born again... being immersed in water represents dying to your selfish old life, and coming up out of the water represents being resurrected to a new life in Jesus Christ, serving God and others above self. I don't think one has to be immersed in water for a baptism to be legitimate, but I do think it most accurately symbolizes what happens when one becomes born again. Just remember that a baptism is simply an act of obedience to Jesus' command... we are not promised that anything special will happen when we obey, we are just commanded to do it as an expression of our faith towards Him.

 

[food4thought]

On the repentance issue, I think we need to repent of our "good" works as well as our "evil" works.

This is true in a way... our good works are ineffective for gaining a right standing before God. Even one sin causes us to be guilty before Him the same way one adulterous relationship shatters a marriage; just like one guilty verdict from a court is enough to make us a criminal, and we then have to pay the prescribed penalty regardless of how good we've been otherwise. Jesus is our only hope of having a right standing with God... we need to repent from earning our relationship with Him and receive His loving forgiveness and grace by accepting Jesus.

I guess I'll describe this last "experience" I had, because that's what it was about.

A couple of months ago, I was extremely depressed. I felt like if Jesus existed then I would like to kick his butt. I felt like my whole life was designed to give me opportunities that I would squander so I could live with the knowledge of my failures. I was angry to think that I'm only 45 and might have to live another 40 years with my sole purpose to make other people feel good - "things might be bad, but at least I'm not a total loser like that cloudyday."

The enemies of our souls would love for us to either: a) always focus on how good we are, and thus never feel the need for Jesus to redeem us, or b) to always focus on our failures, and thus have such a low opinion of ourselves that we feel we can never deserve God's love and forgiveness.

So I went to sleep and had a dream. There was a person made out of light in the distance. I had a dream with something like that light about 15 years earlier, and it had identified itself as "the devil". That first time "the devil" took me to a place where I could see the universe from the outside - like God. I could see the past and the future and everything made sense. I was begging "the devil" to let me stay there, but he told me I would go back to this dream life and hiding from the truth and not be able to remember anything he explained to me (because the concepts were too bizarre to comprehend in this normal state). But then he showed me myself in the future very old and bitter. At that time my life was going up instead of down, so I couldn't understand what could possibly make me that bitter. But now I have a better idea.

Next time something identifying itself as "the devil" appears to you in a dream, I would recommend not embracing that experience. I don't know how much control you have over your actions in dreams... but if you can, call out for Jesus' help immediately if this ever happens again.

But this time the light instantly tackled me and pinned me on my back where I couldn't breath. All I could think was "I guess this is the end of me, and I'm getting what I deserve, sorry for making such a mess of my life, God." Then instantly the thing that was attacking me was gone and I could see a star in the sky with a smudgy light on the left and another smudgy light on the right. I was aware that I was in the middle of saying "Lord, have mercy".

I had experiences similar to this, but without the dream vision (at least not that I can remember). Years before I became a Christian, I would wake up at night from sleep, but be unable to move or breath... then I would feel an icy presence pressing down on me, entering into me from the top of my chest and passing through me and out my back. I didn't have enough sense to call out to God specifically, but I did cry for help in my mind and heart. After it passed out my back, I could move and breathe again. This happened several times over the course of some months, but stopped for reasons I don't understand but am VERY thankful for. Seems to me, given your Christian upbringing and your apparent repentance in the dream, crying out "Lord have mercy" was close enough to calling on Jesus, and He answered.

The star in my dream was Jesus and His light and love was shining on me. I felt like being a little chipmunk in the woods coming out and there is my Creator to pat me on the head. It seemed like all the good and bad in my life was basically irrelevant to Jesus. He was looking past all that to see something hidden in me that He's really after. It reminded me of the parable about the treasure buried in the field or the pearl in the oyster.

What an awesome experience, I have never had a vision of the Lord. I can't tell you with 100% certainty that this really was a vision dream, and not just some normal dream... can you describe how this dream seemed to you, what you felt and how strongly, and how visually clear it was (compared to your other dreams)? I think it might have been real.

Then it seemed like Jesus said I should follow Him, the star, and not the smudge on His left or the smudge on His right. The smudge on His left was rituals and the smudge on His right was Holy Spirit experiences (or something - that part was less clear). He said I should put 100% of my hope in His mercy and if I tried to strengthen my hope by adding something such as rituals or Holy Spirit experiences (or whatever), then I would be 100% off-target. It was like Jesus was saying "I am the Way the Light and the Truth - period". (These weren't words, but ideas that popped into my mind.)

If, as I think, this impression of not following "Holy Spirit experiences" was directed at looking for some mystical feeling or seeking after some supernatural experience... this sounds like it is Biblically accurate. We follow Jesus, not our feelings. We seek the Holy Spirit for power over our sin and guidance in our lives. We seek the Holy Spirit to create in us the image of Jesus Christ, and to produce the fruit of the Spirit in our lives... the supernatural sometimes happens, but in the course of pursuing one of the above goals in my experience. We don't follow rituals, we seek to follow Jesus... sometimes that means involving ourselves in some ritual like baptism or communion; but we are seeking Jesus in these things, not the rituals themselves.

So the whole dream was over in a couple of seconds - like a flashbulb. I woke up and was really happy for about a week. I know it could have been mental illness too, but that is the best "experience" I've ever had. Most of my "experiences" are negative.

I've thought about the message, and I don't think it was a condemnation of practices in denominations but a condemnation of how people like myself understand those practices. Also after seeing how Jesus seemed to feel about me, I can't imagine Him losing any of His sheep. It seems like He is going to gather everybody to Himself and take them through the gate. Probably everybody must discard everything they think they have after they die (such as good works, church rituals, spirituality, etc.) and then they can finally see the mercy of Jesus and enter heaven - like the camel going through the eye of the needle.

Unfortunately, this feeling is not acurate. Jesus desires that none should perish, but that all would come to Him for eternal life, but we MUST come to Him. As another poster said, relationship is a two way street.

Also, I hope everybody takes this with a grain of salt. It could have been my imagination. I'm just trying to explain where I'm coming from in my concerns about church and practices.

Aside from your misinterpretaion of Jesus' powerfull love for you, I see nothing unbiblical in the dream vision itself... I am inclined to accept it as real.

The question now becomes, how have you responded? Do you really believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died on the cross for your sins and rose from the dead? If so, the Bible says you must simply proclaim your faith publicly to become a Christian, and to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit!

Rom 10:6-12 NKJV But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' " (that is, to bring Christ down from above) (7) or, " 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). (8) But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): (9) that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (10) For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (11) For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME." (12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.

Place your faith in Jesus! Believe in what He did for you, ask Him to forgive your sins, turn to Him as your Lord and Savior, and proclaim your faith publicly... and as the bible says, "YOU WILL BE SAVED"!!!

 

[cloudyday2]

Do know that some have merged concepts from both these Faiths. Thomas Merton?

Looking forward to your symbolism (us mystics have to stick together)

Thanks, I have heard of Thomas Merton, but I didn't realize he was merging concepts from different faiths. Also thanks for the other posts too. One of my problems is that if I really believe in Christianity then I need to confront all the things about it that don't make sense to me. I can't wear my Christian hat sometimes and then wear my common-sense hat at other times.

 

[cloudyday2]

Of course God is willing to break rules for us. But the Christian life isn't primarily about rules, though at times rules can be helpful. I'm glad you're sure that God cares about you. But salvation isn't just about avoiding hell. It's about living the kind of lives that God wants us to. Not because he requires it to be "saved", but because the point of salvation is to rebuild our motivations and lives.

So if you're sure that God loves you, I'd expect you to want to respond to that by loving others, and also by getting together with and worshipping and serving with your brothers and sisters. Yes, I think you should be baptized. It's a way to symbolize and make visible your commit to follow God and be part of his people. Physical symbols can help us, since we're physical beings.

Thanks, I've been baptized, so that is covered. I have to decide what I think is the purpose of church for me (if any). Like some churches think the purpose is mostly communion. Other churches think it is teaching. Other churches think it is social bonding with other Christians. I don't know what I think. I know I would rather not go to church unless it's really important.

 

[Tnmusicman]

I understand your situation. It's not an easy thing to come to grips with at times. Jesus loves us with agape love,which none of us can understand. Opening your heart to Him will allow some of those questions to be answered but it's presumptuous of me to say you will have answers to all your questions or even most. I do believe that those answers can come to us as we mature in the Holy Spirit but as another said whether or not those answers are true is another matter.Personally, I believe they are but it will be up to you to decide.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

One of my problems is that if I really believe in Christianity then I need to confront all the things about it that don't make sense to me. I can't wear my Christian hat sometimes and then wear my common-sense hat at other times.

You're on a good path. The main thing now:

(Hebrews 2:3) "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation"

 

[RaiseTheDead]

I have to decide what I think is the purpose of church for me (if any).

What about the purpose of Church TO GOD??

I could tell you what that was to my first Pastor ...

 

[cloudyday2]

What an awesome experience, I have never had a vision of the Lord. I can't tell you with 100% certainty that this really was a vision dream, and not just some normal dream... can you describe how this dream seemed to you, what you felt and how strongly, and how visually clear it was (compared to your other dreams)? I think it might have been real.

I went to sleep badly depressed. The dream woke me up in the early morning suddenly feeling very hopeful and happy. That mood seemed to last about a week. It was similar to how I felt after I read the Nicene Creed and reached the line about baptism. That made me hopeful for about a week too. Those are the only two positive "experiences" I remember. I had a hallucination of Jesus during communion too, but it scared and confused me.

Unfortunately, this feeling is not accurate. Jesus desires that none should perish, but that all would come to Him for eternal life, but we MUST come to Him. As another poster said, relationship is a two way street.

I guess most people seem to agree with you. It's just how it seemed to me.

Place your faith in Jesus! Believe in what He did for you, ask Him to forgive your sins, turn to Him as your Lord and Savior, and proclaim your faith publicly... and as the bible says, "YOU WILL BE SAVED"!!!

I think I've already done that at various times in my life. Most recently I was baptized in the Orthodox church and that was a public proclamation of faith. So I think that is covered.

 

[cloudyday2]

I thought maybe I would mention communion, because if I started attending a church (other than my old church) then I would need to take communion in that church. This would bother me. Orthodox aren't supposed to take communion at non-Orthodox churches. It is similar to Catholic beliefs I think.

Plus I don't feel comfortable with rituals.

I'm just wondering what people think communion is about.