christian morality

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seekingagnostic32

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From the bible, it says a man can sell his daughter into slavery, which is obviously perfectly fine with god. I don't get christian morality though, as selling your daughter to slavery is kosher but having sex with your fiancee is sin? Genocide is okay, but abortion is murder. :confused: Christians are supposed to love others as themselves and treat them as such, but then they condamn everyone else who does not believe exactly as they do to eternal torture. :confused: Christians are told to be loving and kind, so they tell everyone they are a worthless sinner whom does not deserve to live.

How is this morality not contradictory and well, sane?
 

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This is an overly simplistic look at the Bible, which is giving you a false picture of Christian morality.

From the bible, it says a man can sell his daughter into slavery, which is obviously perfectly fine with god. I don't get christian morality though, as selling your daughter to slavery is kosher but having sex with your fiancee is sin?
Forms of slavery were tolerated in the Old Testament as a means of paying off debts. However, this was to be for a period of no more than seven years, after which the slave was to go free. In the case of a female slave, part of the agreement to enslaving her in the first place was also a promise of betrothal. She would be betrothed either to the man who bought her, or if he was old, to his son. If he reneged on the deal, she was to either go back to her father, or to be set free. This was to maximize the possibility of finding her a husband, which a mature woman needed in that society, lest she become a beggar. Note that this is within the context of Hebrew society. The New Testament does not call for selling anybody as a slave, and in fact forbids it (1 Corinthians 7:23, 1 Timothy 1:10). It did not call for abolition outright because it had to work with Roman society at the time, where slavery was pervasive. In fact, slavery went obsolete in Europe by the High Middle Ages, though it tragically was re-instituted with colonizing the New World (and without regard to what the Bible says on slavery).

Sex with the fiancee is a dangerous practice because the knot hasn't been tied yet. Without that, there's no life-long commitment. Given the many failed engagements that have happened, I'd say it's a good idea to abstain until actual marriage.

Genocide is okay, but abortion is murder. :confused:
Genocide isn't okay. God called for a select few nations which were so exceedingly wicked as to practice child sacrifice to be exterminated. If any culture deserves that, it's a culture which ritually burns babies alive and literally puts a child in the wall of a house which is being constructed (which the findings at Ras Shamra confirm were prevalent in the region at the time of the Exodus). But other than those cultures which were specifically named, there is no call to exterminate a people.

And yes, abortion is murder because human life is precious. A fetus is innocent (it committed no sin) human (undeniably human DNA unique from the mother) and alive (otherwise he or she would be stillborn, of course). Therefore, we don't have the right to wantonly end that life. People may bring up questions as to when the fetus receives a soul, but since we don't know the answer to that question, better to err on the side of life. The only time when abortion should be condoned is in cases where it is the only way to save the mother's life, such as an eptopic pregnancy.

How to reconcile this? Easy - “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man. " - Genesis 9:6

In other words, if you kill somebody, what goes around comes around.

Christians are supposed to love others as themselves and treat them as such, but then they condamn everyone else who does not believe exactly as they do to eternal torture. :confused: Christians are told to be loving and kind, so they tell everyone they are a worthless sinner whom does not deserve to live.
Personally, telling people that they are worthless sinners who deserve hell is not how I spend my day. Yes, we all fall short of the perfect standard that God has set for us. Yes, we have all rebelled. Yes, it's either Heaven or Hell, and none of us deserve Heaven. I don't deserve Heaven. I deserve to be eternal kindling. But Jesus gave me a chance that I don't deserve by taking the punishment I do deserve. It's available to all who put their faith in him, turn from their old ways, and obey him. People ought to at least know about this way of escape. But if they are absolutely closed to hearing about it, there are better ways that I can spend my time.
 
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drich0150

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From the bible, it says a man can sell his daughter into slavery, which is obviously perfectly fine with god. I don't get Christian morality though, as selling your daughter to slavery is kosher but having sex with your fiancee is sin? Genocide is okay, but abortion is murder. :confused:
It seems you have confused Christianity with Judaism. There is a real easy dividing line between the two. Anything prior to the book of Matthew is considered "Old Testament" or Judaism, and anything after is considered New Testament or Christianity.
All you have attributed to Christianity is infact OT Judaism. Crisis averted!!:)


Christians are supposed to love others as themselves and treat them as such, but then they condemn everyone else who does not believe exactly as they do to eternal torture. :confused:
Again you have confused yourself. Christians can not hold anyone to their sin. At best we can point them out when asked. God is the one who will hold you to accountable to your word thought and deeds.

Christians are told to be loving and kind, so they tell everyone they are a worthless sinner whom does not deserve to live.
You seem to have forgotten what Christians call the "Good news!" Or the Gospel. It is that even though you are a worthless sinner whom does not deserve to live, the Son of God has died for your sins and you may find atonement if you simply repent of your sins and forgive as you have been forgiven. Now not only can you live you have been given eternal life!!:D

How is this morality not contradictory and well, sane?
In You version or current understanding of the term, it is not on either account. But if one looks past what you have angered yourself with, one can find Righteousness and atonement provided by God.
 
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Peace,

From the bible (torah*), it says a man can sell his daughter into slavery, which is obviously perfectly fine with god. I don't get christian (jewish*) morality though, as selling your daughter to slavery is kosher but having sex with your fiancee is sin?
...you have confused Christianity with Judaism.
Agreed.

Genocide is okay, but abortion is murder. :confused:
Genocide is not ok.

Christians are supposed to love others as themselves and treat them as such, but then they condamn everyone else who does not believe exactly as they do to eternal torture. :confused:
Christians shouldn't condemn anyone, if they do then they're a hypocrite.

Christians are told to be loving and kind, so they tell everyone they are a worthless sinner whom does not deserve to live.
You should be more specific, unless you intend to be twisting the truth by generalizing.

How is this morality not contradictory and well, sane?

With people contradictions happen, and its insane.

Everything that was written down as the right thing to do is summed up with, "love everyone".

Peace be to you.
 
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seekingagnostic32

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Peace,



Agreed.


Genocide is not ok.

Bible says it is. So does christians.

Christians shouldn't condemn anyone, if they do then they're a hypocrite.

I agree. Yet they still do it.

You should be more specific, unless you intend to be twisting the truth by generalizing.

I was perfectly specific there.

With people contradictions happen, and its insane.

That's a good excuse.

Everything that was written down as the right thing to do is summed up with, "love everyone".

Peace be to you.

Too bad 95% of them don't follow their own rules.

Loving others? Why do that when we can judge and condemn? Much more fun, don't you know? :doh:
 
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seekingagnostic32

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It seems you have confused Christianity with Judaism. There is a real easy dividing line between the two. Anything prior to the book of Matthew is considered "Old Testament" or Judaism, and anything after is considered New Testament or Christianity.
All you have attributed to Christianity is infact OT Judaism. Crisis averted!!:)

Oh. So the hebrew bible is not "God's Word" and is errant and has mistakes and is not to be taken seriously? Somehow I know YOU would never say that.

Historically, much of the ot never happened anyway, according to modern archeology. There is no evidence of anything prior to David or Saul, but at least we know they existed.

The problem comes in, when christians come in and say "You must believe every word of the entire bible to be an xtian". So I'm not. Problem averted.

Again you have confused yourself. Christians can not hold anyone to their sin. At best we can point them out when asked. God is the one who will hold you to accountable to your word thought and deeds.

Bible says to stone your family if they turn you away from YHWH. This is love. Also, you should stone your kids if they act up. That's in Deuteronomy.

You seem to have forgotten what Christians call the "Good news!" Or the Gospel. It is that even though you are a worthless sinner whom does not deserve to live, the Son of God has died for your sins and you may find atonement if you simply repent of your sins and forgive as you have been forgiven. Now not only can you live you have been given eternal life!!:D

The "good news" is hardly good as described by most xtians. It's nice that you believe that you, your family, kids and everyone else on the face of the earth is a worthless sinner who should be dead. That's... awesome.

This is exactly why I reject your religion. Too much hate, too much evil for me.

Even my worst enemies, I don't walk around thinking that way towards. It honestly seems like religion is designed to appeal to those with very poor self images. And to try and tear down those who have healthy self images so that it can bring you under its control. That's so sad. Even as a Christian, I never went around thinking the way you just described or as I outlined in my OP. It's disgusting to me... How mentally unhealthy such a religion is!


In You version or current understanding of the term, it is not on either account. But if one looks past what you have angered yourself with, one can find Righteousness and atonement provided by God.

"We are created sick and demanded to be well."

I'm trying to find the "love" here... Well, i guess in comparison to sending wild beasts to bereave me of my children and enemies to rip open my wife with child, I guess this is passable for "love" from god. :(
 
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ChristianT

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Actually it's true that we are not completely worthless. If we were such a lost cause that some people misunderstand from teachings and Bible readings, then from what they say, not even Jesus, who is God, can save them. Which is so wrong and yet taught in many places. We actually do have worth. Jesus saw that worth in us - the purpose we are here, our part in extending and offering God's [true] Kingdom here on earth. We just weren't destined to be in God's presence without Jesus because we all choose throughout our lives to disobey Him. He knows we are not perfect and wouldn't be with Him otherwise. He chose while we were still sinning to die so we would have a way to be saved from our sins, a purpose to stop willfully sinning, and a motivation to repent when future sins occur. (and we can then live more free, unbounded by our sins)

Worthless sinner? Not really. . .
Imperfect children of God? More accurate.
+ Jesus =
Children of truth, merciful missionaries, warriors (against evil spirits) of God, etc(as from the Bible).

Peace.
 
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seekingagnostic32

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Actually it's true that we are not completely worthless. If we were such a lost cause that some people misunderstand from teachings and Bible readings, then from what they say, not even Jesus, who is God, can save them. Which is so wrong and yet taught in many places. We actually do have worth. Jesus saw that worth in us - the purpose we are here, our part in extending and offering God's [true] Kingdom here on earth. We just weren't destined to be in God's presence without Jesus because we all choose throughout our lives to disobey Him. He knows we are not perfect and wouldn't be with Him otherwise. He chose while we were still sinning to die so we would have a way to be saved from our sins, a purpose to stop willfully sinning, and a motivation to repent when future sins occur. (and we can then live more free, unbounded by our sins)

Worthless sinner? Not really. . .
Imperfect children of God? More accurate.
+ Jesus =
Children of truth, merciful missionaries, warriors (against evil spirits) of God, etc(as from the Bible).

Peace.

Merciful Truth : Does God Hate You, Sinner?
 
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drich0150

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"We are created sick and demanded to be well."
We are created sick and God has provided the cure. All one needs to do is get past oneself and accept the cure.

I'm trying to find the "love" here... Well, i guess in comparison to sending wild beasts to bereave me of my children and enemies to rip open my wife with child, I guess this is passable for "love" from god. :(
Are you looking to become an OT Jew? I believe you missed you window by about 2000 years. Unfortunately God is not offering "passable love" any more. Your only option now is to accept the love and forgiveness offered through Christ.
 
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seekingagnostic32

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We are created sick and God has provided the cure. All one needs to do is get past oneself and accept the cure.

So god created man sick...? You admit that?

Is that moral; to create someone sick then demand they be well?

Are you looking to become an OT Jew? I believe you missed you window by about 2000 years. Unfortunately God is not offering "passable love" any more. Your only option now is to accept the love and forgiveness offered through Christ.

That's an ignorant thing to say, there are still orthodox Jews that try to live by the 613 mitzvot.

Tell that to the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, non-religious folks, pagans and Wiccans. Basically, everyone that does not believe exactly as you do.
 
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food4thought

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From the bible, it says a man can sell his daughter into slavery, which is obviously perfectly fine with god.
I think Sketcher gave you a good answer here. I would only add that many of the laws that are given in the OT are limiting factors on what was done in those times. In most cases, OT "slavery" wasn't slavery but indentured servitude. It was a form of social welfare that kept families from starving and children from being abandoned. Other times it was the result of a military conquest, and the alternative to slavery in these cases was becoming a destitute person on the street (likely to die of starvation), execution, or inprisonment for life... I'll allow you to make your own mind up as to which is preferable.
I don't get Christian morality though, as selling your daughter to slavery is kosher but having sex with your fiancee is sin?
Sex outside of marriage has caused a host of social ills in our society: unwanted pregnancy leading to abortion, the rampant spread of venereal disease, failure of over 50% of marriages, etc. God does not say something is sinful because He is a prude; He says it is sinful because it is harmful to others and/or ourselves.
Genocide is okay, but abortion is murder.

The genocide you speak of was horrible, but if you understand Genesis 6 you know that the peoples He ordered wiped out were genetically aberrant due to some kind of demonic intervention which produced mutant offspring called Nephilim (translated giants in many Bible versions), contaminating the entire population's gene pool over time.
Christians are supposed to love others as themselves and treat them as such, but then they condemn everyone else who does not believe exactly as they do to eternal torture.
I condemn no one. I simply present the Biblical truth: unless you accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior you are going to spend eternity seperated from God. Informing people how to avoid this fate is an extremely loving thing to do. Either those you have encountered had an unhealthy emphasis on hell, or you have misunderstood or misremembered their words.
Christians are told to be loving and kind, so they tell everyone they are a worthless sinner whom does not deserve to live.
Again, this is a misleading way of presenting the reality. Yes, we have all sinned and are therefore under God's condemnation for those sins; but to say they do not deserve to live is innacurate IMO. It is in life after our death that we experience the condemnation for our sins if we have not accepted Jesus... in our temporal lives, we simply reap what we sow. We have all been given this short life to work out our relationship with God.
How is this morality not contradictory and well, sane?
Mostly, you have misunderstood or had someone misrepresent the Christian doctrines and the morality they lead to.
 
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drich0150

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So god created man sick...? You admit that?
I wouldn't say just sick. I would say sick and dying.

Is that moral;
Moral as in your version of morality? Apparently not. But it does pass as Righteousness (The true standard of God in which "morality" is judged) When you look at what is truly being offered; A Choice. For not everyone wants to be cured (Eg. like those who take every opportunity to deconstruct Christianity so they can sin and feel justified doing it.)

So to force everyone to be well when their hearts are set on being sick is an immoral and unrighteous act. However to allow those who wish to find eternal health the ability to do so, and to allow those who wish to be sick and die the freedom to like wise do so, is indeed a Moral and righteous act.

to create someone sick then demand they be well?
The Demand is for those who want to be with God. The rest are allowed to remain sick.

That's an ignorant thing to say, there are still orthodox Jews that try to live by the 613 mitzvahs.
Mitzvahs have nothing to do with living in the "passable love" you described that was only attributed to OT Judaism. Nice try, but no. You set fourth a very strict set of parameters when you coined the term "passable love" To which, only a very select few were asked to live in that time. Even to those who wish or follow 613 mitzvahs, the time of "passable love" is over.

Tell that to the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, non-religious folks, pagans and Wiccans. Basically, everyone that does not believe exactly as you do.
I have and will continue to do so for anyone who asks as you have.
 
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Too bad 95% of them don't follow their own rules.
Its 100%. Christians try to follow Christ, not become Christ himself.
Does that bother you? If so, why? Instead of thinking what other people are doing wrong, why not think about yourself?

Loving others? Why do that when we can judge and condemn? Much more fun, don't you know? :doh:

Yes loving others. I liked being loved, and I know how the other person feels when I give them love.
For instance, you feeding into the words I take the time and energy to type to share my love.

I don't know about judging and condemning, and I'd rather work than have fun. I.e. working with you. I hope you don't think the meaning of life is to be hypocritical.

I tell you the truth, the meaning of life is love. Love is the meaning of life.
Parents find this easy to understand.

Peace, and grace be to you.
 
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