Christian Leaders

[map4]

Whoa, whoa there fella. I was following you closely until you said this. We aren't supposed to automatically see people as being annointed by God just because they have a following. And even when other church leaders indorse them, we should still put them to a test. That is not rebellion.



On this I agree.

I agree.

How can we say we follow someone that we don't even know?
As I stated earlier...many that are called leaders I don't even know. And some that I do know I don't agree with everything they do or say. I have not said anything negative about anyone.
Believing the same as others and following them, imo are not exactly the same. Paul said to imitate me as I imitate Christ. Christ is our example. He is who we follow. There are some that I know personally whom I feel imitate Christ and they are someone I would follow their example. And they are not all pastors but just ordinary people like us who have shown by their lives that they are for real.
I'm not just going to say someone is my leader just because others say so. Especially if I have no knowledge that they are imitating Christ.

 

[LogosRhema]

Well these "leaders" refer themselves as leaders... I'm yet to get a definite answer from them... Hmmm...

 

[MinJeremiah]

You have anything to back up your notion that this is rebellion, or am I just to take your word for it?

Scriptures over and over show that God is against speaking against the authority He appoints. Tragic thinks happened when people spoke against Moses for example. They had the "I know God too" mentality. It is true that we also can know God. But God has called us to follow leaders and to obey there authority as long as it is in line with the written Word of God (Rom. 13:1-6; 2 Thess. 3:7-9; Heb. 6:12).

The definition of rebellion is: "opposition to one in authority or dominance" (Merriam-Webster).

You said you don't recognize Charismatic leaders. The word recognize means, "to admit as being of a particular status." The Word says we are to give honor to whom honor (Rom.13:7). If you intentionally neglect to honor Charismatic leaders this is wrong and a form of rebellion.

 

[MinJeremiah]

When "Christian leaders' is mentioned here, then names have been named...I don't even know a lot of them. I never heard of many of our so-called leaders until I came to this forum.

I knew there are many well known preachers, evangelists, etc. But I never thought of them as my leader. I don't follow them. Just because one is well known does not make them a leader. Unfortunaltely, some of them do things to put the rest of us in a negative light. Then we find ourselves having to defend ourselves against things people we don't even know have done.

I can see where others may think they are Christian leaders because they are well known.

My question then to use is, who is a leader in the body of Christ to you? Why do you classify them as such?

 

[MinJeremiah]

Whoa, whoa there fella. I was following you closely until you said this. We aren't supposed to automatically see people as being annointed by God just because they have a following. And even when other church leaders indorse them, we should still put them to a test. That is not rebellion.



On this I agree.

Partly true, partly incorrect. It is true that we don't blindly follow anyone. I never endorsed that. If real leaders like your Pastor endorse a Man of God you should also. If you can't follow your Pastor, you need a different Pastor. Also we have no business creating tests for leaders. If God placed them there your job is to follow them.

I know there is abuse in this area. I know there are ministers walking in disobedience and we need to pray for them. However I'm not taking about them. I'm talking about those who have character, power, and are doing Kingdom business. We should not rebel against a minister just because he drives a Cadillac or doesn't speak in tongues. That is sinful.

I'm a non denominational word of faith preacher, but I'd never say a unkind thing about Billy Graham or Rick Warren.They are great leaders who I see a few things differently on. But they have done great things for Christ. I honor them greatly.

 

[Faulty]

Scriptures over and over show that God is against speaking against the authority He appoints. Tragic thinks happened when people spoke against Moses for example. They had the "I know God too" mentality. It is true that we also can know God. But God has called us to follow leaders and to obey there authority as long as it is in line with the written Word of God (Rom. 13:1-6; 2 Thess. 3:7-9; Heb. 6:12).

The definition of rebellion is: "opposition to one in authority or dominance" (Merriam-Webster).

Exactly where did I say I was in opposition to those people you mentioned?

Even so, you assume they have authority, but just because they have been allowed to have authority in your life doesn't make me subject to them. You say they are your leaders? Fine. Follow them. Otherwise you will be guilty of the rebellion as you say.

They are not my leaders and never have been. It's not possible for me to rebel against them.

You said you don't recognize Charismatic leaders. The word recognize means, "to admit as being of a particular status." The Word says we are to give honor to whom honor (Rom.13:7). If you intentionally neglect to honor Charismatic leaders this is wrong and a form of rebellion.

Again, they are not my leaders but I also never said I didn't honor some of them. In fact, if you were to actually read all my posts, you'd find that I owe a lot to Kenneth Copeland because I've learned a lot through his ministry, but even so, I don't consider him my leader in anything. I have learned much from many, but learning from someone does not place that person in a position of authority over you.

 

[lismore]

Personally, I recognize no leaders of the charasmatic church, but I'm wondering if I'm in the minority.

I recognise one leader, one head, one good shepherd, one soon coming King.


Matthew 23:10 NIV
Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.


Matthew 23:8 NIV
"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.

One body, many parts, different function does not mean different rank.

 

[Faulty]

I recognise one leader, one head, one good shepherd, one soon coming King.


Matthew 23:10 NIV
Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.


Matthew 23:8 NIV
"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.

One body, many parts, different function does not mean different rank.

That sums it up quite nicely.

 

[MinJeremiah]

[/i]

Exactly where did I say I was in opposition to those people you mentioned?

Even so, you assume they have authority, but just because they have been allowed to have authority in your life doesn't make me subject to them. You say they are your leaders? Fine. Follow them. Otherwise you will be guilty of the rebellion as you say.

They are not my leaders and never have been. It's not possible for me to rebel against them.




Again, they are not my leaders but I also never said I didn't honor some of them. In fact, if you were to actually read all my posts, you'd find that I owe a lot to Kenneth Copeland because I've learned a lot through his ministry, but even so, I don't consider him my leader in anything. I have learned much from many, but learning from someone does not place that person in a position of authority over you.

If you are a Christian they are your leaders because
God raised them up.

 

[Zugzwang]

To you ppl who cringe at the HH label, you may wanna skip this post b/c i'll certainly be labeled as such afterwards. (as if i hadn't been already, and i'm fine with that)

MD, on a previous thread i agreed with you on almost everything, yet on this one, i have to take the exact opposite pov on virtually everything you said. The bible i read tells me that the truth would be hard to find in the last days, not easy or abundant as these so-called 'leaders" would have you believe. fact is, i don't acknowledge any of these guys to be leaders, most quite the opposite.

i've made it known quite a few times here i don't understand when the term "watchman" got labeled as a dirty word, yet here at CF is sure is. ppl try and point out the serious egregious errors some of these 'leaders" have preached, only to be swatted with the HH flyswatter, and ignored, despite the fact in this day and age you can look up these sermons where these soundbites are taken from, IN FULL, to realize that, for the most part, these clips aren't taken out of context at all!

i eard a clip where creflo made the illogical fallacy where he said "well if dogs produce dogs, and horses produce horses, what do gods reproduce? you are gods. i've heard kenneth copeland call god the biggest failure in the bible! as for benny, well we'll just leave that one alone.

i guess my main point is, in my eyes, no man is a leader to me that teaches materialism at the cost of holiness, that takes the blood of christ and trades it for a lexus, and yet the only one driving the lexus in these parking lots are the teachers of this doctrine.

btw, one more obvious fact i don't believe actually needs to be pointed out, but apparently does, is that God is striking down the god of this country AS WE SPEAK called mammon (globally, not just the usa) and yet we have a warning about "touching not god's annointed." pffftttt.

it would seem that God is revoking that call on all these ppl that preach that kind of message, wouldn't you say?

Lord help us.

 

[Leimeng]

To you ppl who cringe at the HH label, you may wanna skip this post b/c i'll certainly be labeled as such afterwards. (as if i hadn't been already, and i'm fine with that)

MD, on a previous thread i agreed with you on almost everything, yet on this one, i have to take the exact opposite pov on virtually everything you said. The bible i read tells me that the truth would be hard to find in the last days, not easy or abundant as these so-called 'leaders" would have you believe. fact is, i don't acknowledge any of these guys to be leaders, most quite the opposite.

i've made it known quite a few times here i don't understand when the term "watchman" got labeled as a dirty word, yet here at CF is sure is. ppl try and point out the serious egregious errors some of these 'leaders" have preached, only to be swatted with the HH flyswatter, and ignored, despite the fact in this day and age you can look up these sermons where these soundbites are taken from, IN FULL, to realize that, for the most part, these clips aren't taken out of context at all!

i eard a clip where creflo made the illogical fallacy where he said "well if dogs produce dogs, and horses produce horses, what do gods reproduce? you are gods. i've heard kenneth copeland call god the biggest failure in the bible! as for benny, well we'll just leave that one alone.

i guess my main point is, in my eyes, no man is a leader to me that teaches materialism at the cost of holiness, that takes the blood of christ and trades it for a lexus, and yet the only one driving the lexus in these parking lots are the teachers of this doctrine.

btw, one more obvious fact i don't believe actually needs to be pointed out, but apparently does, is that God is striking down the god of this country AS WE SPEAK called mammon (globally, not just the usa) and yet we have a warning about "touching not god's annointed." pffftttt.

it would seem that God is revoking that call on all these ppl that preach that kind of message, wouldn't you say?

Lord help us.

~ And it is again quite clear that you have taken these individual out of context, or not heard the entire context.
~ Learn to read and listen to stuff in context and entirety.
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

(***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)

 

[Zugzwang]

i'm sorry, do you think in the future you could flame or bait me with a more loving attitude?

thanks!

 

[Zugzwang]

btw, i don't have to post clips to what these guys have said because google and youtube are your friend. and if you type in what i have said, you will hear it in the proper context.

hide your head in the sand if you wish, i care not, but don't think i'm gonna let you slide this lie you have said as truth.

 

[MinJeremiah]

btw, i don't have to post clips to what these guys have said because google and youtube are your friend. and if you type in what i have said, you will hear it in the proper context.

hide your head in the sand if you wish, i care not, but don't think i'm gonna let you slide this lie you have said as truth.

I won't hide my head. I believe we are gods in the way Creflo Dollar and Kenneth Copeland believe. You just don't have the revelation and you are taking out of context what they mean. They don't teach we are Diety and not dependent on God and His Word. They simply mean we are His children with His nature. I believe in probably everything they teach because it is based on the Word.

And as I said earlier, honor your leaders. Pray that you are not off. And quit googling for you interpretations. You have never heard Copeland or Dollar call themselves God the creator. And get rid of your religious thinking of God. God isn't a giant spirit without form. Copeland's teaching is very accurate on how God probably looks. Quit taking out of context what he said. God has a face, arms, legs, and etc. He isn't a giant ghost. You were made in his image so he must look like you.

And based interpretations of these HH statements, I will boldly say you are not telling the truth when you said you have heard the entire messages and read the books and articles these stem from.

 

[Zugzwang]

"Everything produces after it's own kind. That's the law of Genesis! Everything produces after it's own kind. Will God set a law into motion and then not follow the law that He set into motion? Absolutely not! Where did you come from? Who did you come from? Everything produces after it's own kind. Horses get horses and dogs get dogs and Gods produced gods! Gods produced gods! Ya'll didn't hear that. Horses produce horses and dogs produce dogs and Gods produced gods! Horses produce horses and dogs produce dogs and cats produce cats and fish produce fish and God produced gods! And then God produced more gods with flesh and then gods with flesh produced more gods with flesh. And then gods with flesh produced more gods with flesh until THE God of gods with flesh showed up one day with flesh and dwelt among the other gods with flesh to demonstrate to the other gods with flesh how to have authority over the flesh! So follow Him! Follow Him! This is our history I'm telling you about! This is the history the religious church wants to hide away from you so you don't know who you really are!"

This is a direct quote from the message according to your "discernment" ( hunch) that i have never heard in context. the title of the sermon is "made after his kind." i put that out there so all can hear it for themselves and make their own decision about it. (Did you do that? of course not)

see what you people fail to take into context is the simple fact that we have a sin nature, and will NOT be over that sin nature until we're all at home in glory. everything spiritually was settled at the cross when christ said "it is finished", we can be sure of our standing with the father because of the acceptance of his son in our life.

but that simple biblical truth isn't enough for the people that have to maintain that they have a big "S" on their chest is it? and god help those ppl that disagree with them. there's something wrong with them, they're not living up to their "potential". worse, they're actually committing blasphemy by saying they're merely sinners saved by grace, right? right.

thats why i admire paul so much, he said i sin more than you all, he was humbled by what the lord showed him in the third heaven, he didn't deny his messenger of satan that buffeted him, he was told "my grace is sufficent." so he humbled himself to god's plan, accepted it for his own good, told the church repeatedly just how much of a human being he was, and not to look to him as anything other than a man, let alone god with a small "g".

what amazes me is the fact that we had a small "g" fall by the wayside a few months ago, endorsed by other so-called "christian leaders" who KNEW what kind of person TB was , and endorsed him ANYWAY. they not only set him up for a fall, by putting him in a place he wasn't ready to be at, but the rest of us as well.

now you can go ahead and argue the fact that TB is not WOF, and that's fine, what you can NOT argue however, is the total amount of silence coming from most of the ppl here on this board. there was maybe 8-10 ppl publicly speaking out against what he taught and warning ppl here only to be told what MD? SHUT UP, YOU'RE SUPPRESSING GOD! WHY PUT GOD IN A BOX, HOW DARE YOU. etc etc. you would think all the little "g"'s around here would reconize he was imposter and spot him as not one of their own, but that wasn't the case was it? of course not.

satan told eve by eating the fruit she would be as god were. it all comes down to pride. are we seated in the heavenlies, even now? yes! but do you think my best measure to ensure that others are seated there with me is to stand up and flap my gums about how special god has made ME, or get on my knees and let the power of god flow through me in contrite humility and worship? i don't need "things" telling me i'm saved, i have the bible for that. i don't need "christian leaders" telling me how to live, i have the holy spirit for that. and i especially don't need a puffed up spirit, in a certain time of judgement that is clearly coming, moreso than sackcloth and ashes!

what will happen to everyone's faith when their "toys" are stripped away? will they have the spirit of job and say the lord giveth and the lord taketh away. blessed be the name of the lord. or will they question their own salvation and ask my god my god, why have you forsaken me?

time will tell.

 

[ARBITER01]

now you can go ahead and argue the fact that TB is not WOF, and that's fine, what you can NOT argue however, is the total amount of silence coming from most of the ppl here on this board. there was maybe 8-10 ppl publicly speaking out against what he taught and warning ppl here only to be told what MD? SHUT UP, YOU'RE SUPPRESSING GOD! WHY PUT GOD IN A BOX, HOW DARE YOU. etc etc. you would think all the little "g"'s around here would reconize he was imposter and spot him as not one of their own, but that wasn't the case was it? of course not.

You're exactly right. That's the way people approached those of us who were saying no to him and his antics on here.

It was only a few months ago when this stuff was happening and TB was the big ticket item on here and other places, now other so-called leaders are finally coming out to speak against what the more courageous ones already spoke out against in the first place when it was happening.

There is a big lesson in that for all of us,..

1Jn 2:6 he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked.

TB's actions did not resemble Jesus at all. Maybe next time a new circus ringleader rises up before us, more Christians will use scripture to discern the situation better than they did on this past one instead of just blindly accepting and following.

 

[MinJeremiah]

You two before me need to grow up. My faith isn't in a man, but in the Word of God. Who cares if a man of God falls; you should be praying for his restoration instead of judging him. I'm shocked to hear Christians talk like you.

As for Creflo Dollars statement you quoted above, it is biblically a accurate. Your lack of bible understanding doesn't negate what Pastor Dollar said. We are gods. Everything Creflo said is supported by the Bible. I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion on man's spirit nature, but isn't it true that everything produces after its own kind? Isn't it logical that is God has children then they would be like Him? Where we not born of the Seed of God, which is His Word, which He is one with? If my spirit was born of His Seed (greek say spermos), wouldn't His seed or spiritual sperm produce after Him.

By the way this teaching on man having the nature of God in them is not a tenant of the Word of Faith movement. Yes many believe in it, but everyone does not teach that. So to say the Word of Faith teaches this is false. A more accurate statement would have been that some ministers, including several in the Word of Faith, believe that Christians are gods; meaning God's children.

 

[Zugzwang]

You to before me need to grow up. My faith isn't in a man, but in the Word of God. Who cares if a man of God falls; you should be praying for his restoration instead of judging him. I'm shocked to hear Christians talk like you.

Grow up? How about holding people accountable for their own actions, is that grown up enough for you? In case you missed my blatantly obvious point, i'll spell it out for you: I don't call most of these "leaders" b-r-o-t-h-e-r-s at all. Is that plain enough? so why would i pray for their restoration?

Jesus had a few choices words for the 'leaders" in his day too. he called them "white-washed tombs". Is that plain enough for you as well? Will you disagree with the author and finisher of our faith?

And what does the bible say about THIS time? 2 Tim 4 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Is there any doubt that now more than ever this is that time? or will we resort to ancient retorts led by atheists since time began that "It has always been this way, nothing has changed."

Would YOU be so inclined to agree with them? Or can you not see the season?

amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD.

you would make it seem that the word of god is being preached around the clock, without error, and with integrity, wisdom, and by the leading of the spirit. if that is the case WHY do most pastors worth their weight in salt say that the church is asleep? huh? why were so many deceived in florida? why are so many deceived HERE, on this very board? why do only 2% of christians witness? why am i looking at a current president that is trying to divide israel for the palestinians? why am i looking at gay marriage being an almost certainty, and partial birth abortion being the defacto standard in the land yet again? olmert, the pm of israel, is on his way out, and he is hurrying to try and make a deal before he is kicked out! bush was no friend to israel, so what do you think obama will be? can you not see the writing on the wall?

the usa MUST be pushed back as a superpower so that israel will have no choice BUT to seek a covenant with the anti-christ! why else would they sign if big brother were still in the picture? do you honestly think when ezek 38-39 rolled around we would just sit on our hands?! no, its because we have no choice! israel must rely on their messiah completely, totally, and without any doubt, and to do that we must dissapear.

you think i have derailed the topic? i have not, i wanted to merely paint a more clearer picture for you MD. you see, we may very well have the nature of god, as the bible says, however, (and here is where the leaders fall far short) we substitute holiness for "things". when looking at the bible, you must look at all of it, not just pick and choose what suits you, there is no "spitting out the bones" when it comes to the word of god! the bible says store up your treasures in heaven. the bible says where a man's eyes are, so is his heart. the bible says you can not serve two masters...

i would think far less of these so-called "men of god" if i heard more about holiness and less about "health, wealth, and prosperity." how about a little more godly sorrow? how about the least you do for these, you do unto me?

and barring all that godly instruction, how about using god-given common sense? the ides of march are here, now is not the time to be saying "eat, drink, and be merry."

Thou fool, tonight thy soul is required of thee.

will the one with entitlement in his heart see the face of god? or the one that says have mercy on me o lord?

it is time the elect woke up.

good day.

 

[ARBITER01]

Who cares if a man of God falls; you should be praying for his restoration instead of judging him. I'm shocked to hear Christians talk like you.

That was the standard statement that all of those folks used on here before, and they were found to be absolutely wrong.

It was an assumption on their part, just like what you are insisting on here, that proved them and their spiritual discernment wrong before all of us. We are not allow ourselves to be deceived, and yes that means we are to judge situations and people no matter who dislikes it.

 

[MinJeremiah]

Grow up? How about holding people accountable for their own actions, is that grown up enough for you? In case you missed my blatantly obvious point, i'll spell it out for you: I don't call most of these "leaders" b-r-o-t-h-e-r-s at all. Is that plain enough? so why would i pray for their restoration?

Jesus had a few choices words for the 'leaders" in his day too. he called them "white-washed tombs". Is that plain enough for you as well? Will you disagree with the author and finisher of our faith?

And what does the bible say about THIS time? 2 Tim 4 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Is there any doubt that now more than ever this is that time? or will we resort to ancient retorts led by atheists since time began that "It has always been this way, nothing has changed."

Would YOU be so inclined to agree with them? Or can you not see the season?

amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD.

you would make it seem that the word of god is being preached around the clock, without error, and with integrity, wisdom, and by the leading of the spirit. if that is the case WHY do most pastors worth their weight in salt say that the church is asleep? huh? why were so many deceived in florida? why are so many deceived HERE, on this very board? why do only 2% of christians witness? why am i looking at a current president that is trying to divide israel for the palestinians? why am i looking at gay marriage being an almost certainty, and partial birth abortion being the defacto standard in the land yet again? olmert, the pm of israel, is on his way out, and he is hurrying to try and make a deal before he is kicked out! bush was no friend to israel, so what do you think obama will be? can you not see the writing on the wall?

the usa MUST be pushed back as a superpower so that israel will have no choice BUT to seek a covenant with the anti-christ! why else would they sign if big brother were still in the picture? do you honestly think when ezek 38-39 rolled around we would just sit on our hands?! no, its because we have no choice! israel must rely on their messiah completely, totally, and without any doubt, and to do that we must dissapear.

you think i have derailed the topic? i have not, i wanted to merely paint a more clearer picture for you MD. you see, we may very well have the nature of god, as the bible says, however, (and here is where the leaders fall far short) we substitute holiness for "things". when looking at the bible, you must look at all of it, not just pick and choose what suits you, there is no "spitting out the bones" when it comes to the word of god! the bible says store up your treasures in heaven. the bible says where a man's eyes are, so is his heart. the bible says you can not serve two masters...

i would think far less of these so-called "men of god" if i heard more about holiness and less about "health, wealth, and prosperity." how about a little more godly sorrow? how about the least you do for these, you do unto me?

and barring all that godly instruction, how about using god-given common sense? the ides of march are here, now is not the time to be saying "eat, drink, and be merry."

Thou fool, tonight thy soul is required of thee.

will the one with entitlement in his heart see the face of god? or the one that says have mercy on me o lord?

it is time the elect woke up.

good day.

I'm glad that your wrong. I guess a man of God to you is one who only preaches on holiness. I thank God for His mercy he has had on you. You call these men of God not leaders and based on the context I assume you don't see them as brothers. That is sad.

I'm not gonna even waste my time defending them. It would literally be a waste. The mature in this forum can see your heart. If you don't see them as bothers and leaders in the Church, it tells me you have very little understanding of the bible.

I pray that you repent and that God continues to withhold divine judgment from you.