Christian ethics and the medical care of sick people who can't afford treatment

JohannaSK

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Could someone explain to me why Christians in America are usually against joint and several responsibility, like helping poor people who can't afford proper medical care, through income redistribution? Or have I misunderstood something? Why is "the Christian right (Christian republicans)" so famous instead of "Christian left"?

Isn't there any political party in the US which supports helping the poor and other Christian values (like pro-life and the Christian notion of marriage etc.)?

I'm not from the US, and I've often wondered that if I were, I couldn't be able to vote at all because both main parties are non-Christian, but only in different ways...

"Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said to him, One thing you lack: go your way, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me." (Mark 10:21)
 
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Tull

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One thing you lack: go your way, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor,

Have you done this, its a fair question since you suggest others do it.......the ACA is a bit more complicated than helping the poor,almost everyone is poor in regard to healthcare when it can cost 100,000 to spend a few days in the hospital,there is a saying that the cost of anything will rise to the level of he money available to pay for it,healthcare unlike other services is a third party(Insurance companies) affair involving a business that has to make a profit,add to that endless government regulation and the issue of healthcare is not as simple as you make it our to be.


Americans are taxed heavily to pay for many things so perhaps you need to study the situation a bit more.


My insurance because of ACA is practically unuseable except for a brief office visit,am I to understand that I don't matter and despite years of paying into the insurance system I will in all likelihood receive nothing from it,same with social security,if I sold all I had and gave to the poor who would pay for my health insurance since I would obviously not be able to pay for it myself.
 
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JohannaSK

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Have you done this, its a fair question since you suggest others do it.......the ACA is a bit more complicated than helping the poor,almost everyone is poor in regard to healthcare when it can cost 100,000 to spend a few days in the hospital,there is a saying that the cost of anything will rise to the level of he money available to pay for it,healthcare unlike other services is a third party(Insurance companies) affair involving a business that has to make a profit,add to that endless government regulation and the issue of healthcare is not as simple as you make it our to be.

The point is that does one's principle of action and choices in society reflect the Christian values of giving away extra money and possessions to help those who don't have enough to get by. Note, that the man Jesus was talking to in Mark 10 was rich: "And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions." (Mark 10:22)

Surely, many of us have some material stuff that we don't need, but do we strive to give extra possessions away? Do we strive to help those who are in need? Or do we just want more and more material possessions to ourselves and make choices with that goal in mind? The same goes with all other orders given by God: nobody is perfect, but do we even try to be?

I'm all for joint and several responsibility by income redistribution because it is the most effective way to help people who aren't able to earn money for themselves. I don't complain about the taxes.
 
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Kiterius

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Plenty of ways have been established in modern society for those who can't afford medical care to get it.

Some would simply prefer to belly ache; for that group, perhaps it's best if we let them just fade away and so decrease the surplus population.
 
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JohannaSK

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Have you done this, its a fair question since you suggest others do it.......the ACA is a bit more complicated than helping the poor,almost everyone is poor in regard to healthcare when it can cost 100,000 to spend a few days in the hospital,there is a saying that the cost of anything will rise to the level of he money available to pay for it,healthcare unlike other services is a third party(Insurance companies) affair involving a business that has to make a profit,add to that endless government regulation and the issue of healthcare is not as simple as you make it our to be.


Americans are taxed heavily to pay for many things so perhaps you need to study the situation a bit more.


My insurance because of ACA is practically unuseable except for a brief office visit,am I to understand that I don't matter and despite years of paying into the insurance system I will in all likelihood receive nothing from it,same with social security,if I sold all I had and gave to the poor who would pay for my health insurance since I would obviously not be able to pay for it myself.

I admit that my knowledge about American politics and taxes isn't sufficient, but I just can't see the biblical principle of helping the poor in the statements of the Republican party in general.
 
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South Bound

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Could someone explain to me why Christians in America are usually against joint and several responsibility, like helping poor people who can't afford proper medical care, through income redistribution? Or have I misunderstood something? Why is "the Christian right (Christian republicans)" so famous instead of "Christian left"?

Isn't there any political party in the US which supports helping the poor and other Christian values (like pro-life and the Christian notion of marriage etc.)?

I'm not from the US, and I've often wondered that if I were, I couldn't be able to vote at all because both main parties are non-Christian, but only in different ways...

"Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said to him, One thing you lack: go your way, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me." (Mark 10:21)

We Christians believe that we don't do evil that good may come of it.

You say you're a foreigner so I guess you can be forgiven for not knowing that we're neither Communists nor a theocracy.

The Bible never gives the government the authority to take money from one group of people who have earned it to give to another that have not. The Bible calls this kind of thinking theft and covetousness. And the Bible never says it's the government's responsibility to "help" the poor. That responsibility is always given to individuals.

As for the oxymoronic "Christian Left", they don't actually do anything to help anybody. All they do is outsource their charitable responsibilities to the government.

Conservatives believe very much in helping the poor. We just believe that we are to actually help them out of poverty, not just turn the over to the government which will only at best subsidize their poverty.

And how you got the idea that Mark 10:21 has anything to do with helping the poor, I have no idea.
 
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South Bound

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I admit that my knowledge about American politics and taxes isn't sufficient, but I just can't see the biblical principle of helping the poor in the statements of the Republican party in general.

Yeah, that's because they're a political party, not a charity.

The Chiltons' manuals in my garage don't talk about baseball, either.
 
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seeking.IAM

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Actually, there are many from the Christian left who do support the ACA or some other variation of national health insurance. I think the Christian left is not as well organized as the Christian Right, perhaps not at large, not as vocal, and less positioned as a political funder. When you get into the Christian left, however, you also get into more variance in positions such as abortion, marriage, etc. So, yes, political alignment may be fuzzier. Many I know on the Christian left tend to vote Democrat.
 
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South Bound

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The point is that does one's principle of action and choices in society reflect the Christian values of giving away extra money and possessions to help those who don't have enough to get by. Note, that the man Jesus was talking to in Mark 10 was rich: "And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions." (Mark 10:22)

Your ignorance of the Bible is duly noted

The point of this passage is not that the man was sad because he had possessions or that we are supposed to sell all our possessions so that the government will have more money for their programs, but that the man's righteousness was all external and works based

I'm all for joint and several responsibility by income redistribution because it is the most effective way to help people who aren't able to earn money for themselves. I don't complain about the taxes.

First of all, it isn't effective at all. The poor in these programs remain poor. The government doesn't actually help the poor at all. All the government does is write them a check. There are no expectations whatsoever by the government for the poor to help themselves. All these programs do is encourage dependency, theft, covetousness, and greed.

I was a social worker for years. I know the system inside and out. The government doesn't give individualized care or address the specific cause of one's poverty. They just write a check. That's not help. It's turning a blind eye to the problem and it isn't Biblical.

When we help someone however we interview them, we go over their finances, we assign the a mentor, and we give the a plan with goals to meet to help the climb out of poverty.

All you want to do is subsidize their poverty. That's not compassion. That's cruelty.
 
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JackRT

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I admit that my knowledge about American politics and taxes isn't sufficient, but I just can't see the biblical principle of helping the poor in the statements of the Republican party in general.

The Christian political right generally favour the already rich and powerful and some even go so far as to "blame the victim." In Canada the driving force behind our single payer universal health care system was Tommy Douglas, a fiery Baptist preacher turned socialist politician. Several years ago a major TV network in Canada ran a major series and vote to determine Canada's greatest hero. Hundreds of nominations were received and then whittled down to ten or twelve. They then prepared an hour long documentary on the life and achievements of each one of them. Canadians voted overwhelmingly for Tommy Douglas, the firey little Baptist preacher turned socialist politician, who is regarded as the 'Father of Medicare' in Canada. It is my sincere hope that the USA will some day have a universal medicare system comparable to what we enjoy in Canada.
 
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South Bound

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The Christian political right generally favour the already rich and powerful and some even go so far as to "blame the victim."

You forgot to add that we hate the poor, want to starve old people, are all racists, and all the other bigoted talking points the Left engages in when they can't make a coherent argument.

It is my sincere hope that the USA will some day have a universal medicare system comparable to what we enjoy in Canada.

And it is my hope that the USA remains free and returns to the Biblical free market model that will provide better and more available health care at lower costs to consumers.
 
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JohannaSK

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Your ignorance of the Bible is duly noted

The point of this passage is not that the man was sad because he had possessions or that we are supposed to sell all our possessions so that the government will have more money for their programs, but that the man's righteousness was all external and works based



First of all, it isn't effective at all. The poor in these programs remain poor. The government doesn't actually help the poor at all. All the government does is write them a check. There are no expectations whatsoever by the government for the poor to help themselves. All these programs do is encourage dependency, theft, covetousness, and greed.

I was a social worker for years. I know the system inside and out. The government doesn't give individualized care or address the specific cause of one's poverty. They just write a check. That's not help. It's turning a blind eye to the problem and it isn't Biblical.

When we help someone however we interview them, we go over their finances, we assign the a mentor, and we give the a plan with goals to meet to help the climb out of poverty.

All you want to do is subsidize their poverty. That's not compassion. That's cruelty.

I never said that the man (in Mark 10) was "sad because he was rich", but I do say that Jesus tested the attitude of his heart.
 
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JackRT

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You forgot to add that we hate the poor, want to starve old people, are all racists, and all the other bigoted talking points the Left engages in when they can't make a coherent argument.

Give me credit for being concise.:)

And it is my hope that the USA remains free and returns to the Biblical free market model that will provide better and more available health care at lower costs to consumers.

I have absolutely no idea what a biblical free market economy is. Do you? In biblical times it was an honour/shame, domination/submission society in which the rich minority(5%)
controlled the nation and the economy. In several of his parables Jesus thoroughly condemned it.
 
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South Bound

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Give me credit for being concise.:)

You certainly managed to slander us concisely.

I have absolutely no idea what a biblical free market economy is.

Doesn't surprise me a bit.

Do you? In biblical times it was an honour/shame, domination/submission society in which the rich minority(5%)
controlled the nation and the economy. In several of his parables Jesus thoroughly condemned it.

I'm not talking about "Biblical times". I'm talking about Biblical instruction.
 
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Tinyarch

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Could someone explain to me why Christians in America are usually against joint and several responsibility, like helping poor people who can't afford proper medical care, through income redistribution? Or have I misunderstood something? Why is "the Christian right (Christian republicans)" so famous instead of "Christian left"?

Isn't there any political party in the US which supports helping the poor and other Christian values (like pro-life and the Christian notion of marriage etc.)?

I'm not from the US, and I've often wondered that if I were, I couldn't be able to vote at all because both main parties are non-Christian, but only in different ways...

"Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said to him, One thing you lack: go your way, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me." (Mark 10:21)

Did the Jews of Jesus day provide health care for everyone? What about the early Christians, did they provide health care for the Romans? Was the Apostle Paul on a Roman health care plan as a Roman citizen? Was he and other Christians lacking compassion? To whom are Christians responsible with the money God gives them?
 
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Greg J.

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Could someone explain to me why Christians in America are usually against joint and several responsibility, like helping poor people who can't afford proper medical care, through income redistribution? Or have I misunderstood something? Why is "the Christian right (Christian republicans)" so famous instead of "Christian left"?

Isn't there any political party in the US which supports helping the poor and other Christian values (like pro-life and the Christian notion of marriage etc.)?

I'm not from the US, and I've often wondered that if I were, I couldn't be able to vote at all because both main parties are non-Christian, but only in different ways...

"Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said to him, One thing you lack: go your way, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me." (Mark 10:21)
An excellent and totally worthy question to wonder about and ask. The bottom line is, because America has been wealthy for so long that most people, including those that call themselves Christians, have learned to rely on the power of money instead of God. It is the long-term result of being able to use money to comfort and enjoy oneself, instead of suffer and be transformed into one who doesn't suffer for the long-term. Even the undevoted-to-Jesus poor in America live near people and organizations with safely constructed buildings with heat during the winter and have sources of food (if they are not too mentally ill and are humble enough).

The spiritual nature that comes from living in a community were many people must rely on God for basic needs is not widespread in America. As a result, people are slow to be transformed into Christ's likeness, and a lot of people who call themselves Christians are not experiencing the transformation into Jesus' likeness like in other places.

As far as I know, this is the spiritual situation (selfishness) in most wealthy countries (e.g., Western Europe). If you want to see the power of God, you need to visit communities where Christ is at the center of the whole community, and not just a handful of individuals. E.g., some tribes in Africa, presumably some communities in China, etc.—basically, the places where people might starve to death or die because there is no healthcare who latched onto the Good News at some point in the past—not because that is necessary for Christ-likeness, but because it is where you can find more than a handful of the devoted together.
 
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Could someone explain to me why Christians in America are usually against joint and several responsibility, like helping poor people who can't afford proper medical care, through income redistribution? Or have I misunderstood something? Why is "the Christian right (Christian republicans)" so famous instead of "Christian left"?

Isn't there any political party in the US which supports helping the poor and other Christian values (like pro-life and the Christian notion of marriage etc.)?

I'm not from the US, and I've often wondered that if I were, I couldn't be able to vote at all because both main parties are non-Christian, but only in different ways...

"Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said to him, One thing you lack: go your way, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me." (Mark 10:21)


Because having the government steal part of your income and distributing it to the poor is not the same as helping the poor and sick. You're comparing apple and oranges there. You let me be concerned with how I'm going to help the poor and sick, that is between me and God and not a three-party contract between me, God and the government.

Most of that stuff is abused anyway, and a very small portion of it actually gets to help those who truly need it. A good percentage of the people who need to have access to that stuff actually can't get it because of some trivial policy preventing them; much of the people who do get it know how to "work the system" (work in pharmacy and have heard plenty of first-hand stories from both sides of the playing field).

If that's the idea that left-wingers have of "helping the poor and sick" I want no part of it. Rather, I'd prefer for the government to not steal my money so that I can give it to people who actually do need it.
 
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JackRT

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Because having the government steal part of your income and distributing it to the poor is not the same as helping the poor and sick.

Some nations have voluntarily chosen to do this. They have made this choice for a number of reasons --- compassion, justice and sheer practicality are the main ones.
 
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