chimps are so like us... what does it mean?

[Open Heart]

How close to us do chimps have to be before we acknowledge that they are our cousins?

Presently, the state of New York is wrestling with the question of whether chimpanzees should legally be considered persons, with the right of habeus corpus. What do you think?

Consider that chimps murder, rape, go to war... They even spontaneously began making spears. They have a theory of mind. They can act in compassion. In some ways, such as visual memory, they are superior to us. The latest news is that they prefer cooked food and will delay gratification in order to cook it. I could go on and on with their cognitive skills... You get the point.

Where is the line for you?

 

[gluadys]

India has already recognized whales as "non-human persons". Chimps would seem to have an even better claim to such a status. Of course, we still have to work out just what that means. Just what rights would non-human persons have?

 

[Open Heart]

India has already recognized whales as "non-human persons". Chimps would seem to have an even better claim to such a status. Of course, we still have to work out just what that means. Just what rights would non-human persons have?

Very true. The New York case is adjudicating whether or not chimps can be imprisoned.

 

[Calminian]

Just out of curiosity, what do you both feel about abortion? Is it a woman's right?

This is something I often ask animal rights advocates, those who see animals on the same level and humans. Most animals rights advocates, the likes of PETA, generally are pro choice. I'm assuming, though, you guys vote pro-life as professing Christians, and compassionate for souls (animal and human).

 

[ClothedInGrace]

How close to us do chimps have to be before we acknowledge that they are our cousins?

Presently, the state of New York is wrestling with the question of whether chimpanzees should legally be considered persons, with the right of habeus corpus. What do you think?

Consider that chimps murder, rape, go to war... They even spontaneously began making spears. They have a theory of mind. They can act in compassion. In some ways, such as visual memory, they are superior to us. The latest news is that they prefer cooked food and will delay gratification in order to cook it. I could go on and on with their cognitive skills... You get the point.

Where is the line for you?

Humans are humans, chimps are chimps. They are animals, a separate creation from us. They are not our cousins.

 

[Chicken Little]

it means we have fallen so far that we are more like the 5th day beasts than what we were created to be.

 

[Open Heart]

Just out of curiosity, what do you both feel about abortion? Is it a woman's right?

This is something I often ask animal rights advocates, those who see animals on the same level and humans. Most animals rights advocates, the likes of PETA, generally are pro choice. I'm assuming, though, you guys vote pro-life as professing Christians, and compassionate for souls (animal and human).

I'm against abortion. Nacient human life is always worth more than animal life, no matter how sentient. That doesn't mean animals don't have rights. We are so guilty in how we have treated them. (No I'm not in PETA)

 

[Open Heart]

They are animals, a separate creation from us.

I'm not sure this is a real distinction. I think God created us using evolution. I think chimps and humans had a common ancestor, which explains why we are so alike. Human beings are basically animals that also understand right from wrong... we are becoming something more than animals, but obviously we still eat, drink, have sex to procreate, pee and poop, etc.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

I'm not sure this is a real distinction. I think God created us using evolution. I think chimps and humans had a common ancestor, which explains why we are so alike. Human beings are basically animals that also understand right from wrong... we are becoming something more than animals, but obviously we still eat, drink, have sex to procreate, pee and poop, etc.

That is not what the Bible says. It says God created us on the 6th day and that we were to rule over the animals. Evolution is a secular man-made theory.

 

[Calminian]

I'm against abortion. Nacient human life is always worth more than animal life, no matter how sentient. That doesn't mean animals don't have rights. We are so guilty in how we have treated them. (No I'm not in PETA)

Good to know. The Bible is clear a wicked man is cruel to his beast. Animals in Scripture are actually referred to as nephesh chayah (living souls). They are conscious and aware, and were subject to the futility of life suffering and death by Adam's sin. So you can bet we are guilty with Adam as our federal head. Even animal suffering in the wild (cancer, cannibalism, etc.) is on us. We were to have dominion, but fell, and the creation fell with us.

But here's a challenge. If you accept millions of years, and the idea that animals suffering (cancer, cannibalism, etc.) was pervasive long before Adam's sin took place, then on what basis do you claim animal suffering is bad? After God created everything, including man, he called it "very good" (Gen. 1:31). If the earth is young, this is referring to a time before sin came into the world, and before there was suffering and death. But if the earth is millions of years old, then suffering had gone on for millions of years prior to God calling it good. That's means God called all the suffering and death that had preceded "very good." Do you see what I'm getting at?

I believe evolutionary thinking has contributed to animal suffering. If death and suffering are normative and part of the natural process, then why worry about it? It's just the way it is. If God called animal suffering good on day age 6 (which was after millions of years of suffering) then who's to say it's bad now?

But you and I both agree that that was not the original intent for animals. We find absolute horror in the fossil record. Surely you don't believe God intended animals initially to suffer in the most horrible ways imaginable? In fact, God promises one day to restore what he intended.

Is. 11:6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearlinga together;
and a little child will lead them. ​

Just some thoughts.

 

[BeachSun]

How close to us do chimps have to be before we acknowledge that they are our cousins?

Oh trust me, I have some cousins that are living proof!

 

[Open Heart]

That is not what the Bible says. It says God created us on the 6th day and that we were to rule over the animals. Evolution is a secular man-made theory.

Yes, evolution is discovered by man; it is also true. Basically God created, and evolution is part of how He chose to create. Yes we do rule over the other animals. So?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Yes, evolution is discovered by man; it is also true. Basically God created, and evolution is part of how He chose to create. Yes we do rule over the other animals. So?

You don't accept the Truth. Evolution is a lie and chimpanzees are not related to us. The only way they are related to us is the fact that they were created by the same God and are living creatures like us. They are not part of the Human family, and are a lower order of beings than us.

 

[Open Heart]

But here's a challenge. If you accept millions of years, and the idea that animals suffering (cancer, cannibalism, etc.) was pervasive long before Adam's sin took place, then on what basis do you claim animal suffering is bad? After God created everything, including man, he called it "very good"

Good question. I'll be honest with you: I DON'T KNOW. I have a problem with suffering in the world that is not caused by sin. It appears to me to be unjust. Suffering happened for millions of years before modern man walked the earth. Why? I just don't know. God will have to explain it some day when I get to heaven. Until then, I'll just have to trust that He knows what He is doing.

 

[Calminian]

Good question. I'll be honest with you: I DON'T KNOW. I have a problem with suffering in the world that is not caused by sin. It appears to me to be unjust. Suffering happened for millions of years before modern man walked the earth. Why? I just don't know. God will have to explain it some day when I get to heaven. Until then, I'll just have to trust that He knows what He is doing.

I appreciate your honesty. But you can do great good by trusting what God has already told us, that the earth is not millions of years old, and the fossil record we see came after Adam's fall and was laid down by the flood.

What we see in the fossil record today is not a glimpse of millions of years ago, but rather of the antediluvian world. Dinosaurs flourished, as God had not ordained hunting yet, but still suffered as a result of fall. Prior to the fall God called the world, very good. Afterward, death reigned and He refers to death as the enemy.

I would suggest, that if you really care about the treatment of animals, you'd consider the harm that comes from evolutionary thinking. Evolution makes God a god of death and suffering and torture and cancer and cannibalism and everything else we see in the fossil record. Thus why should the Christian be concerned about those things? Biblical creationism shows God is not a God of suffering. He did not call death and suffering very good. He did not create the world through these means, and we should not contribute to suffering in any way.

 

[Open Heart]

They are not part of the Human family, and are a lower order of beings than us.

Are they a lower order of animal than us? Yes. But biologically chimps and humans are both Great Apes. Hominidae, which is kind of like our biological family, includes humans, bonobos, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Are they a lower order of animal than us? Yes. But biologically chimps and humans are both Great Apes. Hominidae, which is kind of like our biological family, includes humans, bonobos, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.

Well if you think you are a Great Ape that is your problem. I know what I am.

 

[Open Heart]

I appreciate your honesty. But you can do great good by trusting what God has already told us, that the earth is not millions of years old, and the fossil record we see came after Adam's fall and was laid down by the flood.

I realize you think that, in part because there are those feeding you the lies, and in part because you cannot bear to give up your literalist understanding of the Bible. But in the end, the truth is still the truth, and all your wishful thinking won't change it.

 

[Calminian]

I realize you think that, in part because there are those feeding you the lies, and in part because you cannot bear to give up your literalist understanding of the Bible. But in the end, the truth is still the truth, and all your wishful thinking won't change it.

But isn't it possible that modern scientists have gotten some things wrong? Why are you so confident in them?

 

[Open Heart]

Well if you think you are a Great Ape that is your problem. I know what I am.

What you are is in denial. So.... my original question was, just how like us does a chimpanzee have to be before you realize they are related? Do you have an answer?