Challenges for pre tribulation rapture

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

Jesus said that John the Baptist was the Elijah of His time.

John the Baptist did help restore his people by preparing them for the coming of Jesus.

Mat_17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

Mat_17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Mat_17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

.

baberean2,

1. I don't deny that John the Baptist was in the spirit of Elijah because it says it further on in the next verse.

2. I also don't deny that he prepared and turned some of the hearts and the forerunner of Christ but that is not the first part of the scripture, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. This was in agreement of what the jewish history said about Elijah in the future concerning the KOH reign which had nothing to do with John the baptist. Christ knew the history and the prophecies about the jews rejecting him in his day and that he had come to save the whole world first. See this is the problem that you have because you don't understand or purposely leave out the full context.

3. Jewish history shows that Elijah would come back and restore things before the great and dreadful day. You are not taking the prophecy as meaning in the future tribulation in Malachi but say it is all John the Baptist only.

4. You need to learn proper wording and proper hermeneutics of the total picture. This is why you stay in your context that doesn't fit the scriptural context in the full context of the subject. You still won't answer about the whole essence of the future physical nation of jews only in the KOH at all but especially their role as the head of the nations.

5. You have no answer or at least scripturally. It would be nice if you would quit going down rabbit trails just to avoid the inevitable and skate the issue that you won't answer to. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. I don't deny that John the Baptist was in the spirit of Elijah because it says it further on in the next verse.

2. I also don't deny that he prepared and turned some of the hearts and the forerunner of Christ but that is not the first part of the scripture, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. This was in agreement of what the jewish history said about Elijah in the future concerning the KOH reign which had nothing to do with John the baptist. Christ knew the history and the prophecies about the jews rejecting him in his day and that he had come to save the whole world first. See this is the problem that you have because you don't understand or purposely leave out the full context.

3. Jewish history shows that Elijah would come back and restore things before the great and dreadful day. You are not taking the prophecy as meaning in the future tribulation in Malachi but say it is all John the Baptist only.

4. You need to learn proper wording and proper hermeneutics of the total picture. This is why you stay in your context that doesn't fit the scriptural context in the full context of the subject. You still won't answer about the whole essence of the future physical nation of jews only in the KOH at all but especially their role as the head of the nations.

5. You have no answer or at least scripturally. It would be nice if you would quit going down rabbit trails just to avoid the inevitable and skate the issue that you won't answer to. Jerry Kelso

Jerry,

I just provided New Testament scripture to validate my viewpoint in the last post, just as I have done in many others.

It is you who continue to claim the Jews will be running the kingdom at the return of Christ, without any New Testament scripture to back up your claims.
.

 

[ac28]

Jerry,

I just provided New Testament scripture to validate my viewpoint in the last post, just as I have done in many others.

It is you who continue to claim the Jews will be running the kingdom at the return of Christ, without any New Testament scripture to back up your claims.
.

You've proven absolutely nothing, as usual. Had Israel, as a nation, repented and accepted Christ as the promised Messiah, John the Baptist would have been Elijah and the great and dreadful day of the Lord would have taken place. They didn't - he wasn't - nothing took place. If it had, the last 2000 years wouldn't have happened.

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

This continued into the Acts period:
2 Corinthians 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Israel never accepted Christ as the Messiah during Acts. Therefore, the 2nd coming is still in the future. To think otherwise is foolishness.

 

[BABerean2]

You've proven absolutely nothing, as usual. Had Israel, as a nation, repented and accepted Christ as the promised Messiah, John the Baptist would have been Elijah and the great and dreadful day of the Lord would have taken place. They didn't - he wasn't - nothing took place. If it had, the last 2000 years wouldn't have happened.

Jesus never came to offer an earthly kingdom to the Jews.
As we see in the verse below, He refused to let them make Him a king.
He came to die on Calvary's Cross, to pay for the sin of rotten sinners like me.

This was God's Plan before the foundation of the world.

Jesus Christ was and is the seed of the woman who would crush the serpent's head in Genesis 3:15.

Joh_6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

I just provided New Testament scripture to validate my viewpoint in the last post, just as I have done in many others.

It is you who continue to claim the Jews will be running the kingdom at the return of Christ, without any New Testament scripture to back up your claims.
.

baberean2,

1. All you have provided is scripture to one side and your context of the spiritual aspect as being the basis that is about jews and gentiles but ignore the fact of Israel the nation being at the head of the nations in the coming kingdom. You think your one sided view of scripture means that the program with Israel is over and you are wrong because you don't address the other side so your view point has no validation in the big picture.

2. I have already given you scriptures about the kingdom at the return of Christ and you deny I said them or that it means what it means or you think it is insignificant to the context.
Revelation 1:7 says they shall look on him whom they have pierced. This is only talking about the physical nation of jews and not the gentiles or the church of today of being spiritual Israel for that is an argument that you used because you were the one that crucified the Lord etc. That is metaphorical and does not fit the context.

3. Isaiah 2:2-4 talks about all the nations flowing into national Israel not the church and this has never happened to Israel where men beat their swords into plowshares etc.
Jeremiah 31:31-37 talks about Israel being the new covenant and the context of the new covenant with the nation was a different covenant than the old and would be spiritual but not remembering their sin no more.

4. This has never happened with the physical nation of Israel. Just as the ordinances depart from God and the heavens can't be measured etc. God will not cast off the nation of Israel and this goes in line with Paul saying the gifts and callings are without repentance. This is not talking about spiritual Israel in the form of the church.

5. Jesus will come back with the saints of the church from Heaven to gather the elect of the earth from the four corners which will be Israel Matthew 24:31. Verse 21 talks about Jacob's trouble which is only connected with Israel and except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

6. Daniel 9:23-27 talks about the purification of nation Israel in the last days and the church never will be backslidden and the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church Matthew 16:18 and they don't have to be purified through tribulation in the time of Jacob's trouble to take their place in the KOH. Matthew 23:31 is speaking of the jews. We are being trained today for rulership training in the KOH through our troubles and trials which is not Jacob's trouble. 2 Timothy 2:12.

7. I have shown you enough scripture and you deny it which is why you are wrong and it is not rightly dividing the word. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

6. Daniel 9:23-27 talks about the purification of nation Israel in the last days and the church never will be backslidden and the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church Matthew 16:18 and they don't have to be purified through tribulation in the time of Jacob's trouble to take their place in the KOH. Matthew 23:31 is speaking of the jews. We are being trained today for rulership training in the KOH through our troubles and trials which is not Jacob's trouble. 2 Timothy 2:12.

Daniel chapter 9 reveals the timeline of the Coming Messiah.

The Gospel was taken to Daniel's people for 7 years, up until the time Stephen was stoned.
After that the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles.

God is not going to sew the veil in the temple back together and go back to animal sacrifices.


Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
There is no Plan B.

The New Blood Covenant Church of Jesus Christ is the only Plan.
.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jesus never came to offer an earthly kingdom to the Jews.
As we see in the verse below, He refused to let them make Him a king.
He came to die on Calvary's Cross, to pay for the sin of rotten sinners like me.

This was God's Plan before the foundation of the world.

Jesus Christ was and is the seed of the woman who would crush the serpent's head in Genesis 3:15.

Joh_6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

.

baberean2,

1. Matthew 4:17; Repent for the KOH is at hand was the proclamation for the physical kingdom of Israel. They rejected the KOH physical because they would not repent which was the condition of obedience to enter the physical KOH for national Israel.


2. Matthew 23:37-39 shows the rejection of Israel and how Jesus would have gathered them if they would have obeyed. Verse 38 The prophecy of Jesus; Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Verse 39 was about Israel seeing Jesus when he came back to establish the KOH when physical Israel would say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord which goes with Revelation 1:7 of they shall look on him whom they have pierced.

3. There is no reason for a jewish remnant on earth as in Revelation 12:17 and the nation being preserved in the wilderness Revelation 12:13-16 concerning purpose and destiny of the covenants. There is no reason for all of Jacob's trouble pertaining to the physical jewish nation going through the purification process and they would have been raptured with all the church pre or mid or post for 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 has no characteristics of the living and the dead in Christ being raised at the end of the tribulation. Only the dead of the tribulation saints who are in heaven are in that resurrection and there is no mention of living saints meeting them in the air and their is no implication of it which is according to your scenario.

4. John 6:15; Jesus perceived that they would come and take him by force but they had not met the conditions of obedience and did not have that in mind when he departed for them. This is why Jesus pronounced judgement on them in Matthew 23:37-39. They knew he was the prophet but later on in the chapter you see more of the rejection that shows the condition spiritually of many of their hearts. The jews were never prophesied to obey God but they were prophesied to reject and crucify the Lord. They had to receive the spiritual aspect of the KOG Matthew 6:33 and Luke 17:20 to enter the physical KOH Matthew 4:17.

5. The KOH covenants of Abraham Genesis 15:18 concerning the land that Jesus said Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the land and that will be renovated when Israel takes their place in the Kingdom according to Joel's prophecy which is tied into the restoration of the KOH Acts 3:19 and going back to Adam and Eve's sin which made them lose the KOH and the KOG both physical and spiritual rule. The spiritual was restored at Calvary and the physical KOH will not be restored until the end of the tribulation and it will be restored with backslidden Israel repents and takes their covenant place according to the covenant promises of Abraham Genesis 15:18 and the Davidic covenant about the KOH forever Isaiah 2:2-4, Jeremiah 31:31-37 and Hebrews 8:7-13 and Isaiah 9:6-7; etc.

6. Both the KOH and Christ crushing the serpents head and the church age were all predestined before the world. Learn the correct context and you will find they are all true and happen in the proper order and place at the proper time. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Daniel chapter 9 reveals the timeline of the Coming Messiah.

The Gospel was taken to Daniel's people for 7 years, up until the time Stephen was stoned.
After that the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles.

God is not going to sew the veil in the temple back together and go back to animal sacrifices.


Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
There is no Plan B.

The New Blood Covenant Church of Jesus Christ is the only Plan.
.

baberean2,

I have already debunked your accusation of a plan b and there was no plan b because spiritually the law of Moses which Jesus preached could not save anyone even in that era.
Jesus could save them personally and he did but it was not through the death, burial and resurrection message because they didn't know this message even though it would be what perfected them Matthew 16:21-23; Hebrews 11:40. Only the new testament in his blood could save and perfect altogether which happened at the cross.
Once again you are wrongly dividing the word. You think if you keep repeating the same mantra which is incorrect then it will be right when it will not be. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Daniel chapter 9 reveals the timeline of the Coming Messiah.

The Gospel was taken to Daniel's people for 7 years, up until the time Stephen was stoned.
After that the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles.

God is not going to sew the veil in the temple back together and go back to animal sacrifices.


Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
There is no Plan B.

The New Blood Covenant Church of Jesus Christ is the only Plan.
.

baberean2,

I have already debunked your belief that the KOH was preached again after the cross and resurrection of Christ for Christ said right before his ascension the time and the seasons were not for them to know and only the father knew. Peter never preached this message but he did recognize the like signs of Joel's prophecy and knew that there kingdom promises were true about the KOH and eternal. This is why there are hints and implication etc about the KOH throughout Peter's ministry. So your 7 year scenario of Daniel is incorrect and there was no purification of Israel for they were not in the time of Jacobs trouble in the early church and there was no covenant made for the one week and no abomination of desolation in the early church until 70 A.D. when the mystery of the church was way into effect. It did not lead to Christ coming back to settle the KOH which will happen in the future when Israel needs restoration and Christ comes back and restores order by the battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:11-15 when they will look on him whom they had pierced Revelation 1:7. They will then become the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4 when the nations will beat their swords into plowshares and will not have war anymore etc. which is connected with Revelation 11:15 when all the kingdoms of the world will become Christ will be the King of all the earth including Israel and David will be the specific King over Israel and the 12 apostles ruling over physical Israel. You know this is true so quit denying it and trying to divert attention from it with your false scenarios. Jerry kelso
You are just beating a dead horse. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

I have already debunked your belief that the KOH was preached again after the cross and resurrection of Christ for Christ said right before his ascension the time and the seasons were not for them to know and only the father knew. Peter never preached this message but he did recognize the like signs of Joel's prophecy and knew that there kingdom promises were true about the KOH and eternal. This is why there are hints and implication etc about the KOH throughout Peter's ministry. So your 7 year scenario of Daniel is incorrect and there was no purification of Israel for they were not in the time of Jacobs trouble in the early church and there was no covenant made for the one week and no abomination of desolation in the early church until 70 A.D. when the mystery of the church was way into effect. It did not lead to Christ coming back to settle the KOH which will happen in the future when Israel needs restoration and Christ comes back and restores order by the battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:11-15 when they will look on him whom they had pierced Revelation 1:7. They will then become the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4 when the nations will beat their swords into plowshares and will not have war anymore etc. which is connected with Revelation 11:15 when all the kingdoms of the world will become Christ will be the King of all the earth including Israel and David will be the specific King over Israel and the 12 apostles ruling over physical Israel. You know this is true so quit denying it and trying to divert attention from it with your false scenarios. Jerry kelso
You are just beating a dead horse. Jerry Kelso

Then what part of the 70 weeks of Daniel chapter 9 was the earthly ministry of Christ?

.

 

[Llewelyn]

So then since Jesus made no reference to the pre trib visit, should be good enough too. Jessus does not return until after the great tribulation.

Justme

Just a comment... I feel you have a few misunderstandings. Firstly you misunderstand that Jesus uses the term tribulation for the tribulation of the saints when he says you will suffer great tribulation for my name's sake. That is a continuous burden of the church. In Matthew 24 he is talking about world wide distress, not the persecution of the saints. Mrs Ten Boom made this same mistake. The saints are still persecuted during this time. Nothing has changed since the beginning. "If they did it to me they will do it to you."

Jesus did make a reference to the rapture. Matthew 24:31-33. "When you see all these things come to pass you know the end is near"... it hasn't happened yet, but it's close. Guess what? The saints are gathered when the end is near, not when it happens. The trouble is that most don't see that the great distress Jesus was talking about in Matthew 24 was not the wrath mentioned in Revelation, but before it. We're not there yet but it feels oh so close. The gathering of the saints is included in the budding fig tree... its part of it.

 

[jerry kelso]

Then what part of the 70 weeks of Daniel chapter 9 was the earthly ministry of Christ?

.

baberean2,

1. Daniel 9:24-27; is about 70 weeks which were 70 sevens as 1 week is 7 years.
From Daniel in the old testament in the Babylonian captivity to Stephen in the new testament church was not 7 years and I don't know where you get that from. The captivity of Babylon was 70 years itself.

2. Daniel was given visions and this vision concerning the 70 weeks was specifically about the jews and Jerusalem.

3. To finish the transgressions is about revolting, rebelling and the law came because of transgressions. This could only refer to Israel for the church doesn't have to purified in this context for the true church is not backslidden.
Psalm 51:13, Isaiah 43:27 and others show of Israel's rebellion. We know that they rebelled and the law was a schoolmaster to lead Israel to Christ Galatians 3:17. They rejected Messiah in his earthly ministry and will not receive him fully until after the second coming and become a nation born at once because of turning from ungodliness from Jacob. This period of the tribulation is called "the time of Jacob's trouble" which is significant to the nation of Israel and not the church. Romans 11:25-29, Isaiah 66:7-10, Ezekiel 36:24-30.

4. To make an end to sins is Israel for from her beginning to end she has been pretty much in rebellion and is still today. The end to sin for the nation of Israel will not happen until after the tribulation when Israel will obey Christ forever. Ezekiel 36:24-30; 37:24-27; Zechariah 14:21. Matter of fact in Ezekiel 37:24-27 talks about David being king over Israel forever and the land of Jacob which came from Abraham will be given to them as an everlasting covenant to them and their children and children's children forever. David was king way before Ezekiel's time as well as now and in the tribulation. But he will be the physical king in the future physical kingdom.
Zechariah 14:21 talks about every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of Hosts and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Cannaanite in the house of the Lord of Hosts.
Verses 16-17 show that the nations against Israel from Armageddon will have to come up to celebrate the feasts in Jerusalem or otherwise they will incur a judgment. This sacrifice will not be for salvation but in remembrance and accordingly to the Feast of tabernacles in that day.
Israel will have sacrifices in the tribulation when they build the temple because of the understanding they have at that time and then it will be done away with by the Antichrist, the man of sin Revelation 11:1-2 and then Israel will suffer persecution in Jacob's trouble and will believe on him whom they had pierced Revelation 1:7.

5. To make reconciliation or atonement for sin once by the sacrifices and in that day will be to the new testament in Christ Blood. Zechariah 13:7 and Romans 11:25-27 has not appropriated their benefits of the new covenant as a nation unto God for they rejected him and were punished and are still backslidden and will be until Christ comes back again and they realize the crucified and risen Lord whom they pierced Revelation 1:7.

6. To bring in everlasting righteousness; Isaiah 9:6-7, 12:1-6, Daniel 7:13-14, 18, 27, Matthew 25:31-46 will happen when Israel finishes the transgression, another words rebelling forever; makes an end to their sins after repenting and being reconciled to God which is atonement where he puts his laws into their hearts and minds Jeremiah 31:31-32; Hebrews 8:7-13. This will result in everlasting righteousness in the KOH reign.

7. To seal up the vision and prophecy means that no man need to rebuke Israel in an attempt to lead them in the way of righteousness for this will be done because of their understanding of them piercing the Lord and because their national salvation will be at stake and only God will be able to save them. This concerns only Israel and Jerusalem.

8. To anoint the most holy refers to the cleansing of Holy of Holies, the temple and the city of Jerusalem from the abomination of desolation and the sacrilege of gentiles and to anoint the millennial temple. Ezekiel 40-43, Zechariah 6:12-13. Their will be a millennial temple so the nations can come up to the earthly Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of tabernacles Zechariah 14:16-17.
The most Holy is never used for a person and the jews would not have associated it with the Messiah who is distinguished by the term "Messiah".

9. The 70 weeks are 70 sevens and 1 week is 7 years equalling 490 years. In short, Daniel 9:25 from the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince was 7 weeks or 7 years. The 1st of 3 rebuilding decrees started with Cyrus the persian king; Ezra 1:1-4, 3:8; Isaiah 44:28; 45:1-4; 46:11.
There was some building and then ceasing etc. during the first decree as in the reign of Cambyses Ezra 4:1-24. In the second year of the reign of Darius 1 he confirms the decree of Cyrus and rebuilding starts again. The temple was finished in his 6th year but the city was not restored. It goes through Artaexerxes after Xerxes who give Nehemiah the decree. He rebuilt the walls in 52 days but this was not the full restoration. That took place after the 7 sevens or 49 years after the 3rd decree. After this decree is when Daniels' 70th week would have started for the previous would have not finished the whole context of the restoration which is 70 sevens or 490 years and was to be built only in troublesome times.

10. The second period was 434 years for it was until the Messiah was cut off. Daniel 9:25 from the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah, the Prince shall be seven seeks and threescore and two weeks, the street shall be built again and the wall even in troublous times.

11. So the first 7 weeks was 49 years and from that time to the Messiah was threescore and two weeks which was 62 weeks which was 434 years. 434 and 49 equal 483 years with 1 week left of 7 years.

12. Verse 26 says; after threescore and 2 weeks which is 62 weeks which is 434 years plus 7 weeks of the first 49 years the Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself: Christ was crucified Isaiah 53:7: He was taken from prison and from judgement: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

13. Then Daniel says; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. The people of the prince that shall come will be in the future tribulation.

14. The last week or 7 years had to fulfilled after Messiah was cut off. Christ crucifixion ended the 69th week. The nation was broken off in Christ's ministry at the end when they rejected him Matthew 23:37-39 and he was crucified or cut off from the land of the living.

15. Daniel 9:27 shows the confirmation of the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

16. The he that confirms the covenant will be the Antichrist for there was no covenant of peace from 63 A.D. to 70 A.D. The AOD has to be understood in this context of the covenant being confirmed.

17. Making the desolation until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. The consummation will be when the time of the gentiles is over Romans 11:25.

18. The last 7 years will be the whole tribulation and the focus on the nation of Israel will be seen even greater in the last half of Jacob's trouble when there will be tribulation like never before Matthew 24:21. The pangs of a woman in travail is Jacob's trouble like Isaiah 66:8; Jeremiah 22:23; Revelation 12:2. These are all significant to Israel and their backsliding and needing to repent to come back into covenant, not the church. This is why the professing church stays defeated is because many believe they can't help but sin and they will backslide and they have to keep rededicating their lives.

19. This is more prevalent in some circles than others because of their lack of understanding about the doctrine of sin.

20. Daniel's 70 weeks are all about the purification and restoration of the temple and the city and the people of Israel. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Daniel 9:24-27; is about 70 weeks which were 70 sevens as 1 week is 7 years.
From Daniel in the old testament in the Babylonian captivity to Stephen in the new testament church was not 7 years and I don't know where you get that from. The captivity of Babylon was 70 years itself.

I never said that.

I am asking you how long was the period of time which started when Christ was baptized in the Jordan River and ended at the stoning of Stephen?
.

 

[MWood]

I never said that.

I am asking you how long was the period of time which started when Christ was baptized in the Jordan River and ended at the stoning of Stephen?
.

Two years.

 

[jerry kelso]

Daniel chapter 9 reveals the timeline of the Coming Messiah.

The Gospel was taken to Daniel's people for 7 years, up until the time Stephen was stoned.
After that the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles.

God is not going to sew the veil in the temple back together and go back to animal sacrifices.


Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
There is no Plan B.

The New Blood Covenant Church of Jesus Christ is the only Plan.
.

I never said that.

I am asking you how long was the period of time which started when Christ was baptized in the Jordan River and ended at the stoning of Stephen?
.

baberean2,

1. I am sorry I was thinking of the time from Daniel to Stephen of the 7 years. So ok, I don't believe I understand what you mean the gospel was taken to Daniel's people for 7 years. They were in captivity for 70 years in Babylon.
The Daniel's 70th week didn't start and hasn't happened at the time of Christ or afterwards.
The coming of the Messiah was the first coming, but he is also coming at the second coming and that is why there is one more week left. The tribulation is the purging of the jews and Daniel's 70th week is about the end times. Look at Daniel 12 at the time of Jacob's trouble and the 1260 days and 1290 days and 1335 days and it was sealed up and Daniel would stand in his lot at the end of the days. If you notice in verse 10 says, many shall be purified, and made white and tried. This is speaking of the jews for Daniel speaks of his people the jews and everything that is involved with the jews such as the daily sacrifice taken away and the abomination that maketh desolate set up etc.

2. Jesus was baptized in the Jordan before he started his ministry. It was while John was still preaching and baptizing for John baptized him and Luke said he was about 30 years of age which was the age of jewish men starting ministry or God's service. The temptation was right after for 40 days and night. Then he started his ministry which was for about 3 years for at least a total of 3.5 years or so.

3. Then there was a little space after the jews rejected Christ and he was crucified and 3 days later arose from the grave. Then there was 40 days after that. So from his baptism to his ascension I assume is about 4 years.

4. The Day of Pentecost happened after his ascension and it is possible that to the time of Stephen could have been 7 years from Jesus baptism but I don't know. Paul got saved right after Stephen's death and

5. Peter had the vision after Paul's Damascus road conversion and it is said that that happened 8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost. If this is true then Stephen's death had to be 5 years before Peter's vision.

6. The fact is it don't really matter because the 70 week of Daniel have to do with the end times and Israel and not the early church and the gospel.

7. You are still trying to insert your idea of spiritual Israel and since they disobeyed they have no more calling according to the covenants concerning the specific land and the KOH reign as head of the nations. You are still wrong.

8. I am beginning to think that you think it is wrong of the jews still to have a covenant role that is different from the church of today of jews and gentiles. You are not anti-semitic in the spiritual Israel concerning the gospel to the whole world both jews and gentiles. You do sound anti-semitic when you want to negate their gifts and callings concerning the physical kingdom and give an answer like Jesus is the only rule in the kingdom. That is the perception you give.

9. The tribes of Israel will be in the kingdom and the 12 apostles will be ruling over them and David will be their king and Israel and Judah will be one and there is nowhere that it says gentiles of the church age will be at the head of the nations of the world. It says we will be kings, priest and rulers in the kingdom to come for that is what we are being trained for.

10. Israel will be saved in that day just like any gentile in that day and it will be by the new covenant of the blood. There is no other way and this is what they missed the first time when Messiah came and that was before the cross. The church age started after that and there was no KOH preached the second time for them to accept the KOH for Jesus said it was not for them to know the times and seasons cause only the father knew and that means the son didn't even know. Get a clue and quit trying to make out like I am trying to preach a different gospel to be saved and quit trying to take Israel's covenants away concerning the physical rule in the KOH reign as head of the nations. You can't prove otherwise. Tell me where Jesus said that the gentiles will be at the head of the nation ruling in Jerusalem. The only way you can do this is to mix in the gentiles by replacement theology and you say that you don't believe in replacement theology. Accept the truth that the physical nation of Israel made up of Jewish believers saved by the new covenant in Christ blood will be at the head of the nations. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. I am sorry I was thinking of the time from Daniel to Stephen of the 7 years. So ok, I don't believe I understand what you mean the gospel was taken to Daniel's people for 7 years. They were in captivity for 70 years in Babylon.
The Daniel's 70th week didn't start and hasn't happened at the time of Christ or afterwards.
The coming of the Messiah was the first coming, but he is also coming at the second coming and that is why there is one more week left. The tribulation is the purging of the jews and Daniel's 70th week is about the end times. Look at Daniel 12 at the time of Jacob's trouble and the 1260 days and 1290 days and 1335 days and it was sealed up and Daniel would stand in his lot at the end of the days. If you notice in verse 10 says, many shall be purified, and made white and tried. This is speaking of the jews for Daniel speaks of his people the jews and everything that is involved with the jews such as the daily sacrifice taken away and the abomination that maketh desolate set up etc.

2. Jesus was baptized in the Jordan before he started his ministry. It was while John was still preaching and baptizing for John baptized him and Luke said he was about 30 years of age which was the age of jewish men starting ministry or God's service. The temptation was right after for 40 days and night. Then he started his ministry which was for about 3 years for at least a total of 3.5 years or so.

3. Then there was a little space after the jews rejected Christ and he was crucified and 3 days later arose from the grave. Then there was 40 days after that. So from his baptism to his ascension I assume is about 4 years.

4. The Day of Pentecost happened after his ascension and it is possible that to the time of Stephen could have been 7 years from Jesus baptism but I don't know. Paul got saved right after Stephen's death and

5. Peter had the vision after Paul's Damascus road conversion and it is said that that happened 8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost. If this is true then Stephen's death had to be 5 years before Peter's vision.

6. The fact is it don't really matter because the 70 week of Daniel have to do with the end times and Israel and not the early church and the gospel.

7. You are still trying to insert your idea of spiritual Israel and since they disobeyed they have no more calling according to the covenants concerning the specific land and the KOH reign as head of the nations. You are still wrong.

8. I am beginning to think that you think it is wrong of the jews still to have a covenant role that is different from the church of today of jews and gentiles. You are not anti-semitic in the spiritual Israel concerning the gospel to the whole world both jews and gentiles. You do sound anti-semitic when you want to negate their gifts and callings concerning the physical kingdom and give an answer like Jesus is the only rule in the kingdom. That is the perception you give.

9. The tribes of Israel will be in the kingdom and the 12 apostles will be ruling over them and David will be their king and Israel and Judah will be one and there is nowhere that it says gentiles of the church age will be at the head of the nations of the world. It says we will be kings, priest and rulers in the kingdom to come for that is what we are being trained for.

10. Israel will be saved in that day just like any gentile in that day and it will be by the new covenant of the blood. There is no other way and this is what they missed the first time when Messiah came and that was before the cross. The church age started after that and there was no KOH preached the second time for them to accept the KOH for Jesus said it was not for them to know the times and seasons cause only the father knew and that means the son didn't even know. Get a clue and quit trying to make out like I am trying to preach a different gospel to be saved and quit trying to take Israel's covenants away concerning the physical rule in the KOH reign as head of the nations. You can't prove otherwise. Tell me where Jesus said that the gentiles will be at the head of the nation ruling in Jerusalem. The only way you can do this is to mix in the gentiles by replacement theology and you say that you don't believe in replacement theology. Accept the truth that the physical nation of Israel made up of Jewish believers saved by the new covenant in Christ blood will be at the head of the nations. Jerry Kelso

Jerry,

This in not just "my idea".

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

 

[MWood]

Jerry,

This in not just "my idea".

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

BA, this Daniel 9:29 Is talking about Satan confirming the Covenant with Israel for one week. This is the Covenant that the Anti-Christ had made with Israel in the beginning of the seven years of Tribulation. Then in the middle of the week He will cause the sacrifice to cease. Then the overspreading of the abominations so that the Temple will become desolate.

This is not about Jesus, but the Anti-Christ.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

This in not just "my idea".

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

baberean2,

1. Daniel 2,7,8 and 9 are all about the end times and the gentile nations against Israel. This is why that Daniel 9:24-27 and Daniel's 70 weeks is about the end times in the 70th week. You believe that the 70 weeks is already over and ended with Christ confirming the new covenant.

2. All the AOD historically with Israel have been the gentile nations that oppressed Israel. Christ confirming the new covenant is not in context with the book of Daniel or Israel receiving the new covenant which is connected with the restitution of all things coming to fruition so Israel can take their place as head of the nations.

3. Daniel is not complete in the end of days and that is why Daniel had to seal it up and be more complete in the Revelation given to John.

4. The antichrist in Daniel is Daniel 8:23-24 and the antichrist in Revelation 13. In Revelation the AOD occurs in the middle of tribulation and this is when the Antichrist will cut off the covenant of which will be made 3.5 years before. Revelation is split up in 2 3.5 years in the two 1260 days which equals 7 years.

5. Daniel 9:24-27 is specifically to the nation of Israel and the new covenant given to them when they repent of their backslidden condition. This did not happen for the nation of Israel at Calvary for their program of the KOH and the KOG was rejected Matthew 23:37-39 and Matthew 24:1-2 shows Jesus prophecy of 70 A.D. and Jerusalem's temple and city destroyed. This was before the cross and that didn't change for the church era came into play with Calvary.

6. You can be right in your context and if the context was all about the jews coming into covenant at Calvary as a nation then you would be right. That is not the case. You are not looking at the big picture and trying to force the scenario of Spiritual Israel of jews and gentiles spiritual belief and the grafting in to support your case and it is not the big picture or the correct context.

7. The 69th week ended when Messiah was cut off and the 70th week is still future.

8. As I have said before you are trying to make the spiritual Israel theory fit and it doesn't and even if it did it would not alter the covenants with the nation of physical Israel.

9. The people of the prince that shall come will be a part of the Revised Roman Empire and shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. You can parallel all you want but the fact is Daniel is all about the end times concerning Israel and Israel receiving the new covenant as the nation of Israel. Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 both talk about this and is separate from this happening at the cross. What happened at the cross was the spiritual aspect but Israel's covenants were not fulfilled at that time and the nation of Israel was not dealt with as a nation under the KOH and the KOG message. That is what you believe but it was about the church era and the veil was torn apart at Calvary but, because of gradual revelation and lack of understanding about the mystery of the church that actual coming of the jews and gentiles didn't come till later 8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost.

10. The 70 weeks is about Israel and the gentile nations that oppress them and Israel coming into their part of the covenants of Abraham and David that is not promised to the church of today. So your whole scenario of spiritual Israel and the KOH message given to Israel for another chance in the early church etc. is not correct. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. Daniel 2,7,8 and 9 are all about the end times and the gentile nations against Israel. This is why that Daniel 9:24-27 and Daniel's 70 weeks is about the end times in the 70th week. You believe that the 70 weeks is already over and ended with Christ confirming the new covenant.

2. All the AOD historically with Israel have been the gentile nations that oppressed Israel. Christ confirming the new covenant is not in context with the book of Daniel or Israel receiving the new covenant which is connected with the restitution of all things coming to fruition so Israel can take their place as head of the nations.

3. Daniel is not complete in the end of days and that is why Daniel had to seal it up and be more complete in the Revelation given to John.

4. The antichrist in Daniel is Daniel 8:23-24 and the antichrist in Revelation 13. In Revelation the AOD occurs in the middle of tribulation and this is when the Antichrist will cut off the covenant of which will be made 3.5 years before. Revelation is split up in 2 3.5 years in the two 1260 days which equals 7 years.

5. Daniel 9:24-27 is specifically to the nation of Israel and the new covenant given to them when they repent of their backslidden condition. This did not happen for the nation of Israel at Calvary for their program of the KOH and the KOG was rejected Matthew 23:37-39 and Matthew 24:1-2 shows Jesus prophecy of 70 A.D. and Jerusalem's temple and city destroyed. This was before the cross and that didn't change for the church era came into play with Calvary.

6. You can be right in your context and if the context was all about the jews coming into covenant at Calvary as a nation then you would be right. That is not the case. You are not looking at the big picture and trying to force the scenario of Spiritual Israel of jews and gentiles spiritual belief and the grafting in to support your case and it is not the big picture or the correct context.

7. The 69th week ended when Messiah was cut off and the 70th week is still future.

8. As I have said before you are trying to make the spiritual Israel theory fit and it doesn't and even if it did it would not alter the covenants with the nation of physical Israel.

9. The people of the prince that shall come will be a part of the Revised Roman Empire and shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. You can parallel all you want but the fact is Daniel is all about the end times concerning Israel and Israel receiving the new covenant as the nation of Israel. Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 both talk about this and is separate from this happening at the cross. What happened at the cross was the spiritual aspect but Israel's covenants were not fulfilled at that time and the nation of Israel was not dealt with as a nation under the KOH and the KOG message. That is what you believe but it was about the church era and the veil was torn apart at Calvary but, because of gradual revelation and lack of understanding about the mystery of the church that actual coming of the jews and gentiles didn't come till later 8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost.

10. The 70 weeks is about Israel and the gentile nations that oppress them and Israel coming into their part of the covenants of Abraham and David that is not promised to the church of today. So your whole scenario of spiritual Israel and the KOH message given to Israel for another chance in the early church etc. is not correct. Jerry Kelso

Jerry,

I have never understood why any member of the Church would argue that there will be a future time when people will come to salvation outside of the Church of Jesus Christ.


Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.


Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,




Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

I have never understood why any member of the Church would argue that there will be a future time when people will come to salvation outside of the Church of Jesus Christ.


Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.


Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,




Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
.

baberean2,

1. Well, guess what there is a pre-tribulation rapture where the church of today will be caught away with the dead in Christ who the Lord will bring with him from heaven and be united in the clouds.
Now I am sure you think the church ought to go through the tribulation in the end days but that is not what the bible says.

2. Luke says we are to count ourselves worth to escape the tribulation. Noah, Lot, Daniel and others of the saved have been kept through many times of tribulation that concern wrath on the wicked.

3. God had a plan down through the ages in many ways before the jews ever came along. They were specifically chosen to bring forth the Messiah and the law came because of sin and was for a period till the seed of the Messiah should come and then it expired at Calvary and was abolished for the better promises of the new covenant.

4. The church is being used now and our time is until right before the tribulation for we are over comers and kept through the church age and taken before the great tribulation of 7 years. Revelation 3:10. When the church is gone there will be people that will know what happened and give their hearts to the Lord and there will be witnesses like the jews 144,000 and the 2 witnesses and gentiles etc. These people will be saved by the new covenant without the church being there physically. The second half of the tribulation is the time of Jacob's trouble which is jewish and there is nothing about the church in the whole tribulation at all. There are saints gentiles and jews and elect gentile and jews but there is nothing about the church or earmarks of the church because we are in heaven before the tribulation Revelation 4:1; 5:10, in the middle of the tribulation

5. Revelation 11:18 being judged for our works and towards the end of the tribulation at the marriage supper of the lamb which is at least one year and then we go with Christ to the battle of Armageddon by coming out of heaven Revelation 19:11-15 not being raptured up to the clouds and come back down to the earth like many post trib raptures think.

6. I have already told you that the first resurrection of believers in Revelation 20 was those believers who didn't take the mark and there is no reference to those living at that time being caught up in this resurrection.

7. You get mixed up with the trumpets such as the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11 which is the angel sounding in the middle of the tribulation. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 where the voice is of the archangel who is Michael and the trump is of God and not the angel. 1 Thessalonians is not in the wrath of the lamb and Revelation 11 is which is stated in Revelation 6:16-17. The trumpet angels are the wrath of the lamb who is in heaven and the wrath of God is the vial angels.

8. In the old testament when Israel came from Abraham gentiles were to come into Judaism by being proselyted. If they didn't they could only know God from their conscience.

9. Because of Israel rejecting Christ the church was grafted in and was the vehicle to make them jealous as far as the jewish nation. Other than that jews and gentiles that become new covenant believers as the church today are used as witnesses to be the light and salt of the earth and for people to know about salvation.

10. When the program for the church ends on earth we will be raptured and the purifying of Israel will begin so they can fulfill the eternal covenants that God promised them for he has not forgotten them and Paul said that in Romans 9-11.

11. Do you not think what is going on with nations hating Israel except for us basically is for a biblical reason? The jews are still backslidden and blinded for the most part but there are those in the nation that understand their covenants are eternal and even those will be rapture with the church there are secular jews that still understand they have eternal covenants and are preparing to build the temple soon etc. There will be a false gathering and the temple will be desecrated Revelation 11:1-2. Gentiles will have the outer court and the AntiChrist will cause the AOD in the middle of the tribulation.

12. So you can post all the scriptures you can find about salvation and connect with the church today but there is none that says they will be in the tribulation and that the gospel can only come from the church today. Jerry kelso