Cessationism true or Does God work like he did in the Apostles' days?

[mikedsjr]

I felt this needs a thread of its own. I see many people who believe God still works like he did back then. I've seen no evidence of this. Since the conversation on this from another thread started, I've been going through the books of the Gospels to find each healing event. I'm certainly not finished. I'm about half way through Luke. I was wrong by one statement I made in the past. Many of the specific stories spoken of dealt with someone who did have faith Jesus could heal. I'm not quite sure I call that saving faith. At least in all the cases where a belief in his healing was involved in the story. But I'm still not done accessing the stories. However, there are also specific stories of people who have no faith involved. And others situations where an individual, believed, in place of the sick person. Some healings happened in the temple. Some healings happened in homes. Some healings happened in crowded areas filled with many people who did not require all around to be believers. Some healings happened in front of the ungodly Pharisees.

Of all the healings listed, not one was a gradual healing that took place over days or weeks. They were instant. Dead people alive. Blind people see. Lame people walked. Bed ridden people rise instantly. Whithered hands restored.

The key difference between the healings spoken of today and healings occurring in Jesus day is not one case of blindness today has been miraculously healed. Not one lame person started walking. Not one dead person was raised. Not one deaf person had their hearing restored.

What we have today are healings of unseen illnesses which require only the person themselves to testify of the healing. However, I've yet to hear of a person deciding to forego doctors in order to get miraculous healings. I do believe God heals. I do believe God has given us doctors to restore hearing, give people the ability to walk who are lame, give sight to some blind people, remove cancer, cure diseases and give people better lives than they could of have without the help of a doctor. By God's grace we have doctors and scientists. Without the work of God's mercy man would not have learned how to do these healings.

I certainly believe God shows mercy on people and heals their bodies in more "miraculous" ways. But none of these healings are proven to be the healings that the apostles and Jesus did.

There is no proof of the Holy Spirits work in means we find in New Testament today. If people are to believe the same form of healing happens today, there should be individuals today who are producing healings as happen in Scripture.

 

[98cwitr]

Find me the faith of the Apostles in today's Church...and there you will find miracles still happening.

The fact remains that God does not and never will change who He is. We change, and thus our perception of how He deals with us changes as well.

 

[mikedsjr]

The problem with the apostle comment is it is attached to Judas as well, who was also sent out to do Healings while Jesus was still alive. There are plenty of false teachers who live up to his billing.

Secondly, we must be careful in how we use the term "change" because God does change. He has changed how He responds through the ages. No one today walks today with God like Adam did. No wrestles with God like Isaac did. No one today has stood in the presence of God and left glowing like Moses had. No one today has walked with God like the apostles had. No one today has seen God appear to them today and be blinded like Paul was. God does change how He acts towards different people.

If there are any individuals this has occurred to today, this is the exception.

Do I believe God can do what He did in the apostles day today? Absolutely. But there is not one shred of evidence what has occurred in these days is no more than mysticism run amock and wishful thinking. No physical proof exists today God has decided to work in the same way as in the apostles days. It has nothing to do with the faith of man. It has to do with how God has decide to work. And in this way God has changed.

 

[twin1954]

The problem with the apostle comment is it is attached to Judas as well, who was also sent out to do Healings while Jesus was still alive. There are plenty of false teachers who live up to his billing.

Secondly, we must be careful in how we use the term "change" because God does change. He has changed how He responds through the ages. No one today walks today with God like Adam did. No wrestles with God like Isaac did. No one today has stood in the presence of God and left glowing like Moses had. No one today has walked with God like the apostles had. No one today has seen God appear to them today and be blinded like Paul was. God does change how He acts towards different people.

If there are any individuals this has occurred to today, this is the exception.

Do I believe God can do what He did in the apostles day today? Absolutely. But there is not one shred of evidence what has occurred in these days is no more than mysticism run amock and wishful thinking. No physical proof exists today God has decided to work in the same way as in the apostles days. It has nothing to do with the faith of man. It has to do with how God has decide to work. And in this way God has changed.

I am with you on this. God. according to Heb. 1:1 has spoken in His Son and we need nothing else. The Spirit works by the Word not by miracles. In this age there are few who need to see some miraculous deed to know that the one speaking is from God. Men no longer worship stumps and statues as they once did and no longer require a sign from God in a miraculous display to believe. In fact the simple and clear preaching of the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe and the Spirit works in a miraculous way when He makes it effectual to the heart of sinners.

Can God still work by miracles? Sure He can but why would He need to? Is the preaching of the Gospel not enough? Do we need more than the Spirit led and Spirit empowering the simple Gospel of Christ? Man always looks for a sign but the only sign given them is the simple, clear preaching of Christ in all His wonder and glorious saving grace. That is enough for me and it is enough for all. If we really believed that the preaching of the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation we wouldn't look for other things. We would preach the Gospel with all our hope and desire for the Spirit to make it powerful to the hearts of those who hear. We are nothing but mud pots who are, what a wonder of grace, used to tell of Him who is all in all.

 

[corinth77777]

I felt this needs a thread of its own. I see many people who believe God still works like he did back then. I've seen no evidence of this. Since the conversation on this from another thread started, I've been going through the books of the Gospels to find each healing event. I'm certainly not finished. I'm about half way through Luke. I was wrong by one statement I made in the past. Many of the specific stories spoken of dealt with someone who did have faith Jesus could heal. I'm not quite sure I call that saving faith. At least in all the cases where a belief in his healing was involved in the story. But I'm still not done accessing the stories. However, there are also specific stories of people who have no faith involved. And others situations where an individual, believed, in place of the sick person. Some healings happened in the temple. Some healings happened in homes. Some healings happened in crowded areas filled with many people who did not require all around to be believers. Some healings happened in front of the ungodly Pharisees.

Of all the healings listed, not one was a gradual healing that took place over days or weeks. They were instant. Dead people alive. Blind people see. Lame people walked. Bed ridden people rise instantly. Whithered hands restored.

The key difference between the healings spoken of today and healings occurring in Jesus day is not one case of blindness today has been miraculously healed. Not one lame person started walking. Not one dead person was raised. Not one deaf person had their hearing restored.

What we have today are healings of unseen illnesses which require only the person themselves to testify of the healing. However, I've yet to hear of a person deciding to forego doctors in order to get miraculous healings. I do believe God heals. I do believe God has given us doctors to restore hearing, give people the ability to walk who are lame, give sight to some blind people, remove cancer, cure diseases and give people better lives than they could of have without the help of a doctor. By God's grace we have doctors and scientists. Without the work of God's mercy man would not have learned how to do these healings.

I certainly believe God shows mercy on people and heals their bodies in more "miraculous" ways. But none of these healings are proven to be the healings that the apostles and Jesus did.

There is no proof of the Holy Spirits work in means we find in New Testament today. If people are to believe the same form of healing happens today, there should be individuals today who are producing healings as happen in Scripture.

I think we should let God be true...I believe God works with people through their measure of faith...and Only God can judge the true intentions of his sevants heart...Even if the servant is wrong...God knows why he believe his wrongness. It is God that determines rather his servant stands or falls..and,he is able "to make him stand."....I don't put anything pass what God can do. We need to worry about where we are in him....

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The key difference between the healings spoken of today and healings occurring in Jesus day is not one case of blindness today has been miraculously healed. Not one lame person started walking. Not one dead person was raised. Not one deaf person had their hearing restored.

In the circles that I have been involved in the dead have been raised back to life, and the sick have been instantly healed. I know of evangelists who have seen these things. In my wife's family a woman was raised back to life through prayer (instantly), the doctors had declared her dead ... see http://www.everybodymattersministry.com for her story. Also see http://www.wcdn.org/ it is Run by Christian doctors and list cases of divine healing that have been scientifically verified.

 

[mikedsjr]

In the circles that I have been involved in the dead have been raised back to life, and the sick have been instantly healed. I know of evangelists who have seen these things. In my wife's family a woman was raised back to life through prayer (instantly), the doctors had declared her dead ... see http://www.everybodymattersministry.com for her story. Also see http://www.wcdn.org/ it is Run by Christian doctors and list cases of divine healing that have been scientifically verified.

If theses stories were true, people would be mobbing the church for healings. Again, there is no proof of Scripturally defined miracles as defined in the stories of Scripture.

 

[royal priest]

If theses stories were true, people would be mobbing the church for healings. Again, there is no proof of Scripturally defined miracles as defined in the stories of Scripture.

In hand with healings were other certain gifts of the Spirit, these also ceased. Speaking in tongues, prophetic utterances, and healing were used as signs to convince would-be believers of the legitimacy of NT revelation.

 

[twin1954]

In hand with healings were other certain gifts of the Spirit, these also ceased. Speaking in tongues, prophetic utterances, and healing were used as signs to convince would-be believers of the legitimacy of NT revelation.

(Heb 2:3) How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;


(Heb 2:4) God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

 

[royal priest]

(Heb 2:3) How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;


(Heb 2:4) God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

It was only until recent that I realized tongues were primarily for Jews, and not so much for Gentiles.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

If theses stories were true, people would be mobbing the church for healings. Again, there is no proof of Scripturally defined miracles as defined in the stories of Scripture.

So you are calling me a lier? This happened in our extended family. Jesus still heals, raises from the dead, does everything he did in the NT, but it just happens less frequently for some.

Additional to the dead raising story from our extended family, I personally have seen a person with a bad back healed instantly through my prayer, she was so convinced of what happened that the story became well known in our town. Do I see healing all the time, no, but you won't stop me praying for it.

We also had a lady in our evangelism group who had excruciating pain from an illness (I can't remember the name of it), she was watching a TV evangelist who was praying for healing, as she listened to him and believed God She was totally delivered from the pain.

Our pastor at church was in the shopping centre and met a woman with stomach pain, he asked if he could pray for her, she said yes, he prayed and she was instantly healed. She asked to come out to church.

 

[twin1954]

So you are calling me a lier? This happened in our extended family. Jesus still heals, raises from the dead, does everything he did in the NT, but it just happens less frequently for some.

Additional to the dead raising story from our extended family, I personally have seen a person with a bad back healed instantly through my prayer, she was so convinced of what happened that the story became well known in our town. Do I see healing all the time, no, but you won't stop me praying for it.

We also had a lady in our evangelism group who had excruciating pain from an illness (I can't remember the name of it), she was watching a TV evangelist who was praying for healing, as she listened to him and believed God She was totally delivered from the pain.

Our pastor at church was in the shopping centre and met a woman with stomach pain, he asked if he could pray for her, she said yes, he prayed and she was instantly healed. She asked to come out to church.

I don't think he is calling you a liar but one who has been deceived. Satan's minions are often found as pastors of churches and deceive multitudes.

(2Co 11:13) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.


(2Co 11:14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


(2Co 11:15) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I don't think he is calling you a liar but one who has been deceived. Satan's minions are often found as pastors of churches and deceive multitudes.

Deceived into believing God still has power? I think you need to rethink your doctrine. Do you think our world still needs Jesus, or does it just need a book that talks of miracles, but can no longer perform them? My God still performs miracles.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Now look at Jesus words:

Luke 4:25-27 But of a truth I say unto you, There were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when there came a great famine over all the land; and unto none of them was Elijah sent, but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian.

Even in God's economy not every person will be healed, does this mean he does not heal? He still heals, but not every one will get healed.

 

[mikedsjr]

So you are calling me a lier? This happened in our extended family. Jesus still heals, raises from the dead, does everything he did in the NT, but it just happens less frequently for some.

Additional to the dead raising story from our extended family, I personally have seen a person with a bad back healed instantly through my prayer, she was so convinced of what happened that the story became well known in our town. Do I see healing all the time, no, but you won't stop me praying for it.

We also had a lady in our evangelism group who had excruciating pain from an illness (I can't remember the name of it), she was watching a TV evangelist who was praying for healing, as she listened to him and believed God She was totally delivered from the pain.

Our pastor at church was in the shopping centre and met a woman with stomach pain, he asked if he could pray for her, she said yes, he prayed and she was instantly healed. She asked to come out to church.

At some point I'm calling someone a liar, yes. The question to you is whether you are going to be bitter or accept my stance as I've presented it.

I've never claimed God doesn't heal. What I've claimed is what occurred in Scripture does not happen today. There is not one Preacher claiming healing like the Jesus or the apostles truly doing what they did. They are deceivers and liars if they do. Read the events of healing in Scripture. Don't just read the events but what happens afterwards many times. Jesus can hardly walk without healing others too. He has to escape after awhile to the other side of the lake, yet they follow him.

Did they believe God heals?

Yes they did. They've saw it with their own eyes. They've saw the dead raised. It doesn't mean these people believed Him for salvation. Most people were gone by the time of his crucifixion.

What have I missed in Scripture you're saying is there?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

They are deceivers and liars if they do.

So you are calling me a deceiver, because I claim a dead relative was given life through prayer in Jesus name. You are not using facts just your opinion. The bible no where claims that miracles will end. It states:

1Co 12:28-31 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? have all gifts of healings? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But desire earnestly the greater gifts.

The bible states, God sets in the church those with spiritual gifting, including healing, but it states not all people have that gift. But WE are to desire the greater gifts.

I have seen some healings, many miracles (to some extent), but I have not performed the GREATER gifts. Should that stop me from desiring them? NOt at all the bibles command is to DESIRE THE GREATER GIFTS.

They are a gift from God, we have to be preaching right to get the gifts.

 

[mikedsjr]

Again, you seem to refuse to read the context of Scripture. You certainly want to isolate everything to do with healing since you state special Healings have happened around your area.

The verse in context doesn't mean random healings associated to no one individual. You haven't proved a pattern that reflect as vs 9 says, "to another the gift of Healings by one Spirit".

This gift of healings is tied to an individual. The gift of healing is tied to the gospel.

There are no more apostles. Why on earth do you not argue for the apostles exist? They're in the list. By your logic apostles still exist.

 

[corinth77777]

You can'tut limits on What God can do.....