Certificate of Debt

[Hammster]

Has the certificate of debt against you been canceled? If so, when did it happen?

Yes. At the cross.

The significance?

God made me alive with Him.

God didn't sit around waiting for me to do something to have the debt canceled. He canceled at the cross. The benefits were applied later.

 

[sdowney717]

Before Christ came to earth on His mission sent from God to save His people from their sins and died and was risen, all people who died went to hell.
The parable of Lazarus and rich man teaches that Abraham was also in hell when he died.

But those who had faith in God and the preincarnate Christ, recall Jesus said Abraham rejoiced that he would see Christ's day, he saw it, and was glad, went to paradise in hell since hell was split into fiery torments and pardise. Yet the righteous dead who had lived their lives by their faith, of whom God said in Habakkuk, the righteous shall live by his faith, were not yet perfected until Christ came.
And so when He died He took the captivity captive (the righteous dead OT saints in hell ) and took them into heaven with Him when He ascended.

Hebrews 11, speaks of those who died before Christ was raised from the death, the OT saints.
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

The Heavenly Hope
A heavenly country they saw from afar off died in assurance they would recieve the promise of God to them, believing this through faith.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I do believe that Jesus conquered sin and death. But not universally. What I believe is that when Jesus paid the penalty for sin, it wasn't universal. Why? Because I believe it means exactly that. He paid the penalty. I believe the certificate of debt was paid on the cross. Just like the passage says. I can take that passage at face value. I don't need to backtrack and add free will and a bunch of other stuff.

“And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:13-14‬ ‭ESV‬‬

The record of debt has been canceled. Not potentially canceled. Canceled.

Conquered is the wrong word then for what you think Christ did then. [Staff edit]

 

[Hammster]

Conquered is the wrong word then for what you think Christ did then.

No. He took the punishment for sin. He conquered whatever penalty and power sin had.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If Jesus conquered sin, why do His people still sin? Has sin been resurrected? Did sin overcome Jesus' conquering?

If sin is DEAD, DIE(D), GONE, AND FINISHED, did it make a comeback and defeat Jesus' purposes? Are you saying God failed?

Think past our sinning for a minute. It's not about our sinning. We are justified with Christ's blood. The Father accepts Christ's sacrifice. You could be the worst sinner on the planet, but if Christ's blood atone for all that sin, it won't prevent you from going to heaven.

So let's remove ourselves from the equation for a minute and just talk about sin. Sin in general. Not anyone's sin, but just sin as God see's it.

Adam and Eve walked WITH God in the garden. Communed with God daily, talked with Him, there was no separation between God and man. They had God with them. Heaven on earth. Perfection.

Sin enters the picture. Adam and Eve disobeyed God and sin entered the world.

IMMEDIATELY, they loose communion and the ability to commune with God. God cannot have sin. A righteous, just God cannot commune with sin.

IMMEDIATELY, God separates them from the Tree of Life so they will not have access to living forever in their state of sin. Now that would have been hell. To live forever separated from God and in pain, anguish and sin.

So, what two things happend because of sin - No longer being able to commune with God AND that they would die so that they would not have to live for eternity in agony and pain.

So death happened. Two deaths. A spiritual death, removal from communion with God and a physical death that one would die eventually and not have to spend eternity in the pain of sin and sinful natures.

So, when Jesus conquers sin, what is He conquering?

He is conquering spiritual death, which is that we were removed from communing with God, and physical death that we die without being reconciled back to God as we die in sin.

So conquering sin is about reversing what happened with Adam and what humanity lost in the garden.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:55
“O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.


The bigger picture here is that sin is conquered. Not whether one can or does sin after the cross.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No. He took the punishment for sin. He conquered whatever penalty and power sin had.

No. He atoned for some sin.

When one conquers they dessimate. Destroy.

Atoning is allocating for. Some sin.

 

[Hammster]

No. He atoned for some sin.

When one conquers they dessimate. Destroy.

Atoning is allocating for. Some sin.

That's so unorthodox, I don't think I can respond since we are so far apart.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That's so unorthodox, I don't think I can respond since we are so far apart.

What is unorthodox is believing that when it says God died for the sins of the world, to read that as God died for the sins of some, His elect.

[Staff edit]

 

[Hammster]

What is unorthodox is believing that when it says God died for the sins of the world, to read that as God died for the sins of some, His elect.

Fair enough.

 

[DingDing]

Okay, don't answer.

But we don't join his bride. We are His bride. That's why I keep saying that you see the bride as something impersonal that we join. I see it as actual people that He loved and died for.

No, these are your words. You are the one who has thrown the "impersonal" flag. So when it says in John 3,
"For God so loved the world...", is that too impersonal for you? Doesn't that passage include all people? Are you too offended to be included in this group?

 

[Hammster]

No, these are your words. You are the one who has thrown the "impersonal" flag. So when it says in John 3,
"For God so loved the world...", is that too impersonal for you? Doesn't that passage include all people? Are you too offended to be included in this group?

That passage doesn't necessarily include all people. Your assumption is that "world" means all people for all time. John uses the word 8+ ways in his writings. Taking a verse out of context and forcing a meaning on it is called eisegesis.

 

[DingDing]

That passage doesn't necessarily include all people. Your assumption is that "world" means all people for all time. John uses the word 8+ ways in his writings. Taking a verse out of context and forcing a meaning on it is called eisegesis.

So you are saying that God has not extended His love to all people?

 

[sdowney717]

That passage doesn't necessarily include all people. Your assumption is that "world" means all people for all time. John uses the word 8+ ways in his writings. Taking a verse out of context and forcing a meaning on it is called eisegesis.

Lets say it means all of the whole world. Perfectly acceptable from a 5 point calvinist view.
Simply God loves people from all over the world, some from every tribe, tongue, nation, not just from the Jewish nation.

For example here Christ teaches from every nation will come His people.
Luke 13:28-30New King James Version (NKJV)
28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”

Revelation 5:8-10New King James Version (NKJV)
Worthy Is the Lamb
8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

So then some are redeemed from all the world of men, not just the jews.

 

[sdowney717]

We only believe through grace. Grace is God's unmerited favor to us that results in our being saved.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Acts 18:27
And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;

 

[Hammster]

So you are saying that God has not extended His love to all people?

In the post you quoted I'm saying that you can't make the argument that He does just by quoting John 3:16.

 

[Hammster]

[Staff edit]

I agree that everyone who comes to Christ comes in faith. And I showed the scripture that states that it comes by hearing. We also know that not all have ears to hear. So it's obvious that not all have faith, and those that do get it from God.

 

[DingDing]

So you are saying that God has not extended His love to all people?

In the post you quoted [John 3:16] I'm saying that you can't make the argument that He does just by quoting John 3:16.

So, again, are you saying that God has not extended His love to all people? You seem to be avoiding the question.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I agree that everyone who comes to Christ comes in faith. And I showed the scripture that states that it comes by hearing. We also know that not all have ears to hear. So it's obvious that not all have faith, and those that do get it from God.

There is a human point where someone comes to God.

[Staff edit]

 

[Hammster]

So, again, are you saying that God has not extended His love to all people? You seem to be avoiding the question.

You added something to my post which makes it say something different than what I intended. Please quote me correctly.

 

[DingDing]

You added something to my post which makes it say something different than what I intended. Please quote me correctly.

Here is some history.

Yes, I answered the question. But perhaps the real problem is, you don't understand the answer (and may have a preconceived bias against what I have said). A very careful reading of scripture (like Ephesians) suggests that Jesus has procured the price of His bride - the church - which is His body and is the elect body which has had its debt cancelled. Now the bride is a corporate entity. The question now becomes, which individuals will join the elect body. I suggest that there is a whole lot more going on here than you appreciate.

This makes the Bride an impersonal entity that Christ allegedly loves, as opposed to specific people He died for.

And again, your statement here shows a complete misunderstanding. If it (the death of Jesus) ain't about you personally (or some other individual), then are you implying that you don't want any part of it? I would suggest that His death ain't centered about you or any other individual... it is about Jesus dying for all the world. Jesus gave Himself for the world, and the church is the mechanism whereby any individual can join God's elect. If that is too impersonal for you, then you really need to sit back and seriously think about some things, like why would you be so objected to Jesus dying for, and saving, the church (which then makes salvation open to any and all who will respond)? The only objection I detect from you is that doesn't make you 'special' enough in your own eyes.

So, again, are you saying that God has not extended His love to all people? You seem to be avoiding the question.

So what say you? And what of what is recorded in John 3:16 (and elsewhere)?