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Cause of speciation observed

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Aggie, Feb 25, 2006.

  1. Aggie

    Aggie Soldier of Knowledge

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    My apologies if someone here has mentioned this article already: http://www.vanderbilt.edu/exploration/stories/speciation.html

    Basically, this was a test to determine whether speciation is a direct result of adaptations due to natural selection. The test determined that it is, with a certainty of about 250 to 1.

    Does this mean anything to the creationists who think that only “micro” evolution is possible? You may need to come up with a new definition of what constitutes “macro” evolution now that speciation has been observed as the direct result of natural selection.
     
  2. Late_Cretaceous

    Late_Cretaceous <font color="#880000" ></font&g

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    Haven't you heard. YEC's have conceded that speciation occurs. Only now "speciation is not evolution".
    (the goal posts have just been moved to another continent)

    from http://www.lewisdt.com/research/evolution4.html (but you can find this type of statement being made at many other creationist websites).

    Not only have the goalposts been moved, but the sport was changed as well.
     
  3. corvus_corax

    corvus_corax Naclist Hierophant and Prophet

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    It would appear so
    We are still playing football, and the Creationists are now playing skiing aerials while claiming its been the same game all along


    I still find it difficult to grasp that some of them apparently now accept what "evolutionists" have been claiming all along, but do so only by mangling the language to the point that words cease to have any meaning at all.
     
  4. Late_Cretaceous

    Late_Cretaceous <font color="#880000" ></font&g

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    [​IMG]

    Mmany YECs accept speciation but according to their own "definition" of speciation even God is limited in His ability to go beyond KIND.
     
  5. truth above all else

    truth above all else Senior Member

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    speciation is an arbitrary term , how narrowly or broadly one defines a species will influence ones thinking on this matter
     
  6. Mocca

    Mocca MokAce - Priest of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Speciation is not an arbritrary term!

    A species is a group of organisms that can produce fertile offspring with any other mature member of that group.

    Edit: This is for sexually reproducing organisms. A different definition is used for asexually reproducing organisms.

    A species is a group of organisms that share a gene pool and can interbreed to produce fertile offspring.
     
  7. truth above all else

    truth above all else Senior Member

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    it is still arbitrary since it implies that when a maladapted organism cannot interbreed then presto we have a new species, such thinking is immature at best, what is at issue here is the ability to create new organisms not separated breeding populations
     
  8. corvus_corax

    corvus_corax Naclist Hierophant and Prophet

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    It does not imply such, since the ToE states that populations evolve.
    Individual "maladapted" organisms do not a species make
     
  9. Mocca

    Mocca MokAce - Priest of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    How well an organism is adapted to its environment is irrelevant to the question of speciation.

    I'm not sure if I understood your post. Could you explain?
     
  10. Phred

    Phred Junior Mint

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    No, it is NOT arbitrary or immature. (Claiming "goddidit" is arbitrary and immature.)

    Speciation means much more than just a lack of the ability to interbreed. This is the key to evolution as any change that affects a population will not pass to any other populations... such as those that cannot be bred with any longer. Evolution can't NOT happen because of this.

    You might want to change your name to something like "blind to anything but scripture." If you were really interested in truth you'd care about what the evidence shows us... not just your interpretation of mythology.
     
  11. truth above all else

    truth above all else Senior Member

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    they evolve by crossing the species border that is to say do not interbreed with the mainstream thus forming another variety of the same organism
     
  12. Mocca

    Mocca MokAce - Priest of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Whether an organism breeds with the population is different from whether an organism can breed with the population.
     
  13. truth above all else

    truth above all else Senior Member

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    charming, I assume a social drink is out of the question then,
    because the definition of species is so loose it makes it easier to show that a species(a breeding population) can evolve into another
     
  14. DevotiontoBible

    DevotiontoBible New Member

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    Speciation is merely hybriding. We have done it for thousands of years in breeding livestock and pets. Cross pollination...so what's the big deal?
     
  15. Mocca

    Mocca MokAce - Priest of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Speciation is not "merely hybriding." A hybrid could breed with an organism with the same genetic code as its parent and produce fertile offspring. (It could breed with its parents with some organisms)
     
  16. rmwilliamsll

    rmwilliamsll avid reader

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    how do ring species fit into this definition? (is the relationship "is a species- transitive?)

    there is an additional problem with the word "can" in "that can produce fertile offspring", for instance, does that mean that corn with the Texas sterile gene is another species? or that two populations which never interbreed but can are still one species? for example, some insects which mature at different times never interbreed yet potentially can, yet are considered two species.

    defining species is not nearly that easy.
     
  17. Late_Cretaceous

    Late_Cretaceous <font color="#880000" ></font&g

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    Speciation is actually quite the opposite to hybridization.

    The definition of a species is rather clear, what is often unclear are the actual boundries between one species and another in nature. Remember, reality does not always obey our attempts at compartmentalization.

    Take the species of Frog called Rana pipens. Individuals from the norhern most extent of the range cannot breed successfully with individuals from the southern extent of thier range. Oddly enough, there is another species of Rana that overlaps much of the range of pipens, In many cases individuals from Rana pipens can breed successfully with individuals from the other Rana species.

    See what I mean. One Rana pipens may not necessarily be able to breed with another Rana pipens, but could with a different species of Rana. In theory, a species is quite clear but in practce (nature) it is not.
     
  18. Mocca

    Mocca MokAce - Priest of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Yes, I agree, defining species is not that easy.

    But it is easy to see that in observed instances speciation is not arbitrary.
     
  19. Late_Cretaceous

    Late_Cretaceous <font color="#880000" ></font&g

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    Look at it this way. We can define colors. Orange and red for example are quite clearly different. But open up the color palet on your computer and try to find the exact spot where the boundry between orange and red is. Not so easy is it?
     
  20. Mocca

    Mocca MokAce - Priest of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    I like that analogy.
     
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