Catholics Told Not To Proselytize Jews

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chokmah

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Letalis said:
Ezekiel 18:27-28 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

And shall the one who repents save his physical life or his spiritual?
one is entwined with the other.
 
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chokmah

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Letalis said:
Really? So, if say you don't repent, you are going to physically die?

I would say that unrepentant sin(s) actually expedite the death, but that's just my belief.

Are you attempting to separate Isaiah 45 and Ezekiel 18 into only speaking of the physical? If so, then feel more than welcome to substantiating the position that one needs to have a mediator in order to have eternal life. I would be more than willing to listen.
 
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geocajun

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Jews did the same thing Christians do to receive forgiveness. Namely, we offer a sacrifice - Christ is the eternal sacrifice for our sins, remembered at each holy Mass.
New fangled judaism no longer has a temple, so the 'pray for forgiveness' concept errupted from the newborn rabbinical judaism in place today. It of course, does not resemble the ancient judaism which Christianity was born from.
 
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Letalis

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chokmah said:
I would say that unrepentant sin(s) actually expedite the death, but that's just my belief.

Are you attempting to separate Isaiah 45 and Ezekiel 18 into only speaking of the physical? If so, then feel more than welcome to substantiating the position that one needs to have a mediator in order to have eternal life. I would be more than willing to listen.
First, let's see where in the Old Testament eternal life is ever the reward promised to Jews? Earthly pleasures are the rewards of those who followed the Old Covenant. See here:

Leviticus 26:3-9 "If you walk in my statutes and observe my commandments and do them, then I will give you your rains in their season, and the land shall yield its increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. Your threshing shall last to the time of the grape harvest, and the grape harvest shall last to the time for sowing. And you shall eat your bread to the full and dwell in your land securely. I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid. And I will remove harmful beasts from the land, and the sword shall not go through your land. You shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall chase ten thousand, and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword. I will turn to you and make you fruitful and multiply you and will confirm my covenant with you.

As for your mediator, it was an animal.


Leviticus 4:35 And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the LORD's food offerings. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

Leviticus 5:10
Then he shall offer the second for a burnt offering according to the rule. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin that he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

Leviticus 16:15 "Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.

So the Jews offered an animal in order to be forgiven their sin, what do you do to be forgiven of your sin?
 
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geocajun said:
As do Christians. Who believes in three Gods? Perhaps those with a fundamental misunderstanding of the holy Trinity, or perhaps those who seek to intentionally misrepresent it.

Or perhaps those who enjoy stirring the pot.....

But I find it interesting to claim that someone has a fundemental misunderstanding of something that, when you get down to it, no one understands. I believe the trinitarian doctrines are still called a "mystery". And it will remain a mystery. Because it is not logically possible.
 
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chokmah

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geocajun said:
Jews did the same thing Christians do to receive forgiveness. Namely, we offer a sacrifice - Christ is the eternal sacrifice for our sins, remembered at each holy Mass.
New fangled judaism no longer has a temple, so the 'pray for forgiveness' concept errupted from the newborn rabbinical judaism in place today. It of course, does not resemble the ancient judaism which Christianity was born from.

Are you under the impression that this is the first time in history that the Temple has been destroyed?

Repentance, prayer and good deeds. That's where it's at.

Please don't try to speak as one who knows about Judaism when you make such an elementary mistake as above.
 
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chokmah

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Letalis said:
First, let's see where in the Old Testament eternal life is ever the reward promised to Jews? Earthly pleasures are the rewards of those who followed the Old Covenant.

Earthly pleasures? You are aware that the Jewish understanding of the World to Come is much different than yours, no?

Let said:
See here:

Leviticus 26:3-9 "If you walk in my statutes and observe my commandments and do them, then I will give you your rains in their season, and the land shall yield its increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. Your threshing shall last to the time of the grape harvest, and the grape harvest shall last to the time for sowing. And you shall eat your bread to the full and dwell in your land securely. I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid. And I will remove harmful beasts from the land, and the sword shall not go through your land. You shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall chase ten thousand, and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword. I will turn to you and make you fruitful and multiply you and will confirm my covenant with you.

As for your mediator, it was an animal.


Ever read 2 Samuel 15? Go check it out.

Sacrifices are an outward expression of an inward heart condition: repentant.
If the heart isn't repentant, then the sacrifice is in vain.



Let said:
Leviticus 4:35
Let said:
And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the LORD's food offerings. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

Let said:
Leviticus 5:10
Let said:
Then he shall offer the second for a burnt offering according to the rule. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin that he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

Leviticus 16:15 "Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.

So the Jews offered an animal in order to be forgiven their sin, what do you do to be forgiven of your sin?

Same thing has always been availabe: forgiveness through repentance, prayer and/or good works.
 
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geocajun

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chokmah said:
Are you under the impression that this is the first time in history that the Temple has been destroyed?

Repentance, prayer and good deeds. That's where it's at.

Please don't try to speak as one who knows about Judaism when you make such an elementary mistake as above.
I can speak as someone who knows about judaism as I was about to become jewish myself before finding the Truth in the Catholic Church. I studied judaism only to conclude the religious system fails itself without Jesus. I have discussed the matter in person with rabbi's in the past, and I am confident that my understanding of Judaism is sufficient to determine that without Jesus the Messiah, the religion proves itself false.
 
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geocajun

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Grizzly said:
Or perhaps those who enjoy stirring the pot.....

But I find it interesting to claim that someone has a fundemental misunderstanding of something that, when you get down to it, no one understands. I believe the trinitarian doctrines are still called a "mystery". And it will remain a mystery. Because it is not logically possible.
Grizzly, Consider that a mystery is not something we do not know anything about, but rather something we do not know everything about. We know enough to know that God is 3 Persons, yet 1 God.
 
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chokmah

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geocajun said:
I can speak as someone who knows about judaism as I was about to become jewish myself before finding the Truth in the Catholic Church. I studied judaism only to conclude the religious system fails itself without Jesus. I have discussed the matter in person with rabbi's in the past, and I am confident that my understanding of Judaism is sufficient to determine that without Jesus the Messiah, the religion proves itself false.

And yet, with this post:

geocajun said:
Jews did the same thing Christians do to receive forgiveness. Namely, we offer a sacrifice - Christ is the eternal sacrifice for our sins, remembered at each holy Mass.
New fangled judaism no longer has a temple, so the 'pray for forgiveness' concept errupted from the newborn rabbinical judaism in place today. It of course, does not resemble the ancient judaism which Christianity was born from.

You prove how little you absorbed and/or know.
 
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geocajun

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chokmah said:
And yet, with this post:



You prove how little you absorbed and/or know.
mere denial is all that is.
Maybe you just don't know either, thats possible. As i've heard from so many in my studies of judaism "if you ask 4 jews what judaism is, you'll get 5 answers".
 
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Letalis

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chokmah said:
Earthly pleasures? You are aware that the Jewish understanding of the World to Come is much different than yours, no?
Why don't you help me understand? I expect to see verses backing up your beliefs.


chokmah said:
Ever read 2 Samuel 15? Go check it out.
What about it?

By the way, I'm still waiting for the verse(s) that show that animal sacrifice isn't needed for forgiveness.
 
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chokmah

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geocajun said:
mere denial is all that is.
Maybe you just don't know either, thats possible. As i've heard from so many in my studies of judaism "if you ask 4 jews what judaism is, you'll get 5 answers".
And that's an example of a red herring.

The idiom about a Jew having four opinions about something is regarding Talmud.

All orthodox Jews know what Judaism. And that Judaism is what you have no understanding of.
 
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chokmah

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Letalis said:
Why don't you help me understand? I expect to see verses backing up your beliefs.

Ooohhh. Step back.

Jews don't believe in a Heaven and Hell situation as Christianity does. The World to Come is not "in Heaven".

Therefore, when you present your verses from Leviticus, it simply shows what obedience yields in this life. And that, sir, is the only life that Judaism concerns itself with. You'll note an absence of passages in the Tanakh regarding the "afterlife". Yet, it's evident it's there, because Abraham was gathered to his fathers.

Let said:
What about it?

Obedience is better than sacrifice. ;)

Let said:
By the way, I'm still waiting for the verse(s) that show that animal sacrifice isn't needed for forgiveness.

I've already presented them: Isaiah 45:22 and Ezekiel 18: 26-27.

Do you need more?
 
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geocajun said:
No doubt thats the truth bro, but we do plant the seeds as instruments of conversion.

From experience, the best seeds are the ones planted when I let Christ lead my steps. When it comes down to it, God really does get all the Glory and I am just blessed to be used.

My whole problem with proselytizing is, from a Christian perspective, it should not exist either conceptually or pragmatically. We Christians are supposed to do our best to let the light of the Holy Spirit shine through us...something so sweet and bright that others will trip over each other to get to. Sure, there are people who choose not to seek, but God loves them no less than those of us who do seek.
 
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geocajun

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chokmah said:
And that's an example of a red herring.

The idiom about a Jew having four opinions about something is regarding Talmud.

All orthodox Jews know what Judaism. And that Judaism is what you have no understanding of.
:D

ahh ok

I'm afraid you either do not understand temple judaism or are trying to be difficult to safe face because of what I said.
Either way, I believe you to be wrong, and am confident in my understanding as its so often been supported by Jewish friends, and even Jewish Rabbi's. Naturally they disagree with me, but they don't pretend that what i've said is misrepresenting judaism as you are doing.
 
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