Catholics Joining The Episcopal Church

Maid Marie

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Thank you for your explanation. Although, unfortunately, it was still way over my head. I have only attended an EC service for a year and only once a Lutheran service so I am very clueless as to the differences between the two. Ex. I just learned today that what I call the communion table would be called the Altar in the EC. In the Nazarene world the altar is something different.

But what you wrote here is still informative. It explains why TEC seems lax at times on what many consider important issues.

I think the confusion comes from how things historically worked out. The 39 Articles really were intended as an English Reformation confession of faith for the English Church, and at least on paper, the Church of England still makes their priests swear to uphold them in their ordinations.

The thing is, the "communion" experienced what's called latitudinarianism. The idea here was that "non-essentials" should not be given too much importance and that if they're not prohibited, they should be allowed. This went hand and hand with the view that the Articles can be interpreted in various ways and that they allow a lot of freedom of interpretation. So it was argued, for example, that even though article 28 literally reflects a Reformed POV, it can be interpreted to allow for other views like the Lutheran view of consubstantiation. The thing is, the Articles explicitly say that they are to be interpreted literally, so you see, the latitudinarians went against against the Articles themselves to allow this and ended up leading people to abandon the Articles as an English confession of faith.

Now I don't know if you consider this a good or bad thing, but the point is, ever since this, the idea in much of the Anglican world has been that the 39 Articles are either not binding at all (the Episcopal Church for example dosen't require priests to uphold them and has them listed with the "historical documents" in the current BCP), or that they can be interpreted in many different ways--just don't read them in their "plain and full meaning." This in turn leads to the notion of lex orandi, lex crendandi to fill the vacuum left by a lack of a formal statement of faith. The idea is that since we don't have a formal statement, our theology can be found in what's implied in the worship services of the prayerbook.

So you could say have we have two different views in the church. One side still holds to the historical post reformation view that the Articles are "our confession." One side holds to the latitudinarian or Broad church POV that we either don't have one at all or that we can interpret things in various ways to allows for various POVs. This is an imperfect simplification (because some conservative Anglo-Catholics don't necessarily fit into either group), but I think it might be helpful to see why you have some folks saying we do have a formal statement of beliefs and others who don't. :)
 
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higgs2

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WE have a lot of ex-catholics. MOstly, I'm guessing, because it's a good blend for two different upbringings (catholic and lutheran for example), because of women priests, no doctrine on birth control, less emphasis on guilt, and especially lately since the ELCA allowed gay priests we are getting several members whose ELCA churches object to this and are preaching fire and brimstone and making noise about leaving ELCA.
 
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file13

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Thank you for your explanation. Although, unfortunately, it was still way over my head. I have only attended an EC service for a year and only once a Lutheran service so I am very clueless as to the differences between the two. Ex. I just learned today that what I call the communion table would be called the Altar in the EC. In the Nazarene world the altar is something different.

Gotcha and yeah, if it sounds confusing, it's because it is!

But as other have mentioned, the key difference is that Lutherans have a formal set of confessions called the Book of Concord, whereas Anglicans can't even decide if The 39 Articles are our confession or not.

In short, Lutherans have a formal written confession that explicitly says what they believe. Anglicans do not.

In other words, all Lutherans agree that what Lutherans traditionally believed (and maybe still believe) are found in the Book of Concord. So if you want to know what Lutherans traditionally believed about something, you can just look it up in the Book of Concord. It's kinda like the Roman Catholic Catechism.

The Anglicans do not have anything like the Book of Concord and the 39 Articles represent the closest thing we have. But as I mentioned, the authority and interpretation of the Articles aren't agreed on. So if you want to know what Anglicans traditionally believed about something, you can look and see if the Articles address the question, but even if they do, there's no way to know if any given Anglican will accept what's written there or even how they will interpret what's written there.

Does that make sense? Yes, I know it sounds like chaos, but many of us think this is actually a good thing. Why? I can't speak for everyone, but I think many Anglicans think that if we can't get unanimous or even a majority approval concerning a doctrine, then it's probably because the issue is a non-essential.

But does it work? I'm not so sure it does and I think it's partly to blame for the current "crisis" in the communion. I personally think the Anglican Covenant is a needed first step if we're going to have a unified global "Anglican Communion" going forward, but I also think we need a formal confession of faith going forward. I personally think we need to either update the Articles or agree upon a new statement of faith. Even your local Bible Church down the street has a statement of faith so you know what the church is expected to teach. I think we need something to get this ship on some sort of course, because it seems to be aimless wandering in all different directions without a compass. But who knows if any of this will happen.

Finally, it's helpful to remember that because Lutherans have a formal confession, they also have explicit beliefs about any given doctrine which an Anglican may or may not agree with. In other words, Lutherans have their own theology which is unique to them. They have their own peculiar view of what happens during communion (called consubstantiation), how we are saved (monergism), if we can fall from grace (yup, you can), and all sorts of theological questions. Because Anglicans don't have a formal confession, we also don't have a standard answer for any of these questions.

Anyways, hope this helps!
 
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Maid Marie

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Gotcha and yeah, if it sounds confusing, it's because it is!

But as other have mentioned, the key difference is that Lutherans have a formal set of confessions called the Book of Concord, whereas Anglicans can't even decide if The 39 Articles are our confession or not.

In short, Lutherans have a formal written confession that explicitly says what they believe. Anglicans do not.

In other words, all Lutherans agree that what Lutherans traditionally believed (and maybe still believe) are found in the Book of Concord. So if you want to know what Lutherans traditionally believed about something, you can just look it up in the Book of Concord. It's kinda like the Roman Catholic Catechism.

The Anglicans do not have anything like the Book of Concord and the 39 Articles represent the closest thing we have. But as I mentioned, the authority and interpretation of the Articles aren't agreed on. So if you want to know what Anglicans traditionally believed about something, you can look and see if the Articles address the question, but even if they do, there's no way to know if any given Anglican will accept what's written there or even how they will interpret what's written there.

Does that make sense? Yes, I know it sounds like chaos, but many of us think this is actually a good thing. Why? I can't speak for everyone, but I think many Anglicans think that if we can't get unanimous or even a majority approval concerning a doctrine, then it's probably because the issue is a non-essential.

But does it work? I'm not so sure it does and I think it's partly to blame for the current "crisis" in the communion. I personally think the Anglican Covenant is a needed first step if we're going to have a unified global "Anglican Communion" going forward, but I also think we need a formal confession of faith going forward. I personally think we need to either update the Articles or agree upon a new statement of faith. Even your local Bible Church down the street has a statement of faith so you know what the church is expected to teach. I think we need something to get this ship on some sort of course, because it seems to be aimless wandering in all different directions without a compass. But who knows if any of this will happen.

Finally, it's helpful to remember that because Lutherans have a formal confession, they also have explicit beliefs about any given doctrine which an Anglican may or may not agree with. In other words, Lutherans have their own theology which is unique to them. They have their own peculiar view of what happens during communion (called consubstantiation), how we are saved (monergism), if we can fall from grace (yup, you can), and all sorts of theological questions. Because Anglicans don't have a formal confession, we also don't have a standard answer for any of these questions.

Anyways, hope this helps!

Yes! This makes better sense. And thank you for the Lutheran links - I can study up on what they believe and maybe get a better understanding of them.
 
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mark46

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I agree. BTW, it is my undertanding that there have been zero changes to the Lutheran confession and many changes to the Roman Catholic Catechism.

In other words, all Lutherans agree that what Lutherans traditionally believed (and maybe still believe) are found in the Book of Concord. So if you want to know what Lutherans traditionally believed about something, you can just look it up in the Book of Concord. It's kinda like the Roman Catholic Catechism.
 
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ebia

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I agree. BTW, it is my undertanding that there have been zero changes to the Lutheran confession and many changes to the Roman Catholic Catechism.
Well, there have been and are many different RCC Catechisms. They are written at particular times for particular audiences as authorised summaries of what the Church believes, not as timeless universal definitions of what the Church believes. Documents for teaching from, rather than creeds/confessions.
 
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file13

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I agree. BTW, it is my undertanding that there have been zero changes to the Lutheran confession and many changes to the Roman Catholic Catechism.

Good point, and yup, there have been many changes, especially since Vatican II. :thumbsup:
 
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Polycarp1

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Another petty nitpick: "Consubstantiation" is the term that Roman Catholics use to describe Lutheran beliefs about the Eucharist -- and my experience on the Internet has been that Lutherans in general do not care for the term. They prefer to use the understanding of the Real Presence that Luther himself stated, without attaching a term to it.
 
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ebia

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I think the confusion comes from how things historically worked out. The 39 Articles really were intended as an English Reformation confession of faith for the English Church, and at least on paper, the Church of England still makes their priests swear to uphold them in their ordinations.
Does it? I can't find any mention of them in the CW ordination service except "They have duly taken the oath of allegiance to the Sovereign and the oath of canonical obedience to the Bishop. They have affirmed and declared their belief in 'the faith which is revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds and to which the historic formularies of the Church of England bear witness", which allows for ambiguity about whether one actually affirms them, or simply regards them as historic documents that "bear witness to the [] faith" in some way.

They are referred to in the licensing service IIRC, but also in a (deliberately?) ambiguous way.
 
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mark46

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I agree with all that you say. I also agree with the need for catechisms that change over time.

Personally, I think that two creeds are sufficient. Personally, I think that there are serious differences among us regardin some of the Articles. I don't think that the answer is to ignore tham as an historical artifact.

One of our local churches ascribes to
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]"A belief in the Historic creeds of the Church as accurate representations of the essence of the Christian faith, and in the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Anglican Church as a coherent and concise expression of Anglican doctrine."[/FONT]


Well, there have been and are many different RCC Catechisms. They are written at particular times for particular audiences as authorised summaries of what the Church believes, not as timeless universal definitions of what the Church believes. Documents for teaching from, rather than creeds/confessions.
 
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file13

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Does it? I can't find any mention of them in the CW ordination service except "They have duly taken the oath of allegiance to the Sovereign and the oath of canonical obedience to the Bishop...
The Canons of the Church of England THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND
Canon A5 and the wording of Section 5(1) of the Worship and Doctrine Measure 1974

The doctrine of the Church of England is grounded in the Holy Scriptures, and in such teachings of the ancient Fathers and Councils of the Church as are agreeable to the said Scriptures.
In particular such doctrine is to be found in the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, the Book of Common Prayer, and the Ordinal.


CANON C15 OF THE DECLARATION OF ASSENT
1(1) The Declaration of Assent to be made under this Canon shall be in the form set out below:

PREFACE

The Church of England is part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church worshipping the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It professes the faith uniquely revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds, which faith the Church is called upon to proclaim afresh in each generation. Led by the Holy Spirit, it has borne witness to Christian truth in its historic formularies, the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, the Book of Common Prayer and the Ordering of Bishops, Priests and Deacons. In the declaration you are about to make will you affirm your loyalty to this inheritance of faith as your inspiration and guidance under God in bringing the grace and truth of Christ to this generation and making Him known to those in your care?

DECLARATION OF ASSENT
I A B, do so affirm, and accordingly declare my belief in the faith which is revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds and to which the historic formularies of the Church of England bear witness; and in public prayer and administration of the sacraments, I will use only the forms of service which are authorised or allowed by Canon.
Packer's little book does a pretty good job of giving the historical and contemporary background behind them, even if you don't agree with his conclusion. But of course, this only applies to the CoE. I'm not sure how many churches in the communion require subscription to the Articles besides them. I know the TEC does not.
 
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file13

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As already noted, the phrase "bear witness" can mean whatever one wants it to mean.

Sure, if you resort to whimsical legal interpretation. For example:

"Well you see, here are the 39 Articles. I have now born witness to them in the sense that they exist in our prayerbook. But you pick and choose whatever you want just like with Scripture." :thumbsup:
 
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ebia

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Sure, if you resort to whimsical legal interpretation. For example:

"Well you see, here are the 39 Articles. I have now born witness to them in the sense that they exist in our prayerbook. But you pick and choose whatever you want just like with Scripture." :thumbsup:
It strikes me as a phrase deliberately designed to be ambiguous (as much Anglican phraseology and liturgy is, from the 1662 prayerbook onwards).
 
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Franny50

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I love the liturgy in both churches,but I especially like the diversity of beliefs in the Episcopal church and the non judgemental stance the church takes on many issues.In the catholic church there is very little room for diversity.Even with birth control,if you do not practice NFP you are a sinner.I was recently kicked off a catholic forum because I took issue with a man risking his wifes life after 5 c-sections,because the couple were told they must always be open to life.I do not hear that preached in any other church.
 
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file13

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It strikes me as a phrase deliberately designed to be ambiguous (as much Anglican phraseology and liturgy is, from the 1662 prayerbook onwards).

I think you misunderstand me here brother. I really do think the latitudinarian influence on the church is a good thing.

However, it dosen't change the fact that from a historical and even "legal" POV, the Articles were the "confession" of the church and on paper, still are for the CoE. I also don't think that the Articles are intentional ambiguous at all. I think it's obvious for anyone who's studied Reformed theology that they mostly reflect a Reformed POV. But this is just me defending the historical position. I actually like the latitudinarian understanding because I think it does a better job of dealing with "non-essentials." But I don't think that latitudinarianism was the original view of the post-Reformation church and I think it's pretty apparent historically.

That's all. But if you ever followed me here on GT, you'll also know I'm very latitudinarian in my views of "non-essentials" in conflict with the literal interpertation of the Articles. I don't think the Anglican communion represents the One True Church (in an exclusive manner) nor do I think the Articles are the last and truest word on Christian confessions. There's an ACNA church in our area if I wanted to go there.... ;)
 
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Maid Marie

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I was recently kicked off a catholic forum because I took issue with a man risking his wifes life after 5 c-sections because the couple were told they must always be open to life.I do not hear that preached in any other church.

Ugh!

Morning coffee is still sinking in so I better just leave it at that.
 
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ebia

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file13 said:
I think you misunderstand me here brother. I really do think the latitudinarian influence on the church is a good thing.

However, it dosen't change the fact that from a historical and even "legal" POV, the Articles were the "confession" of the church and on paper, still are for the CoE. I also don't think that the Articles are intentional ambiguous at all. I think it's obvious for anyone who's studied Reformed theology that they mostly reflect a Reformed POV. But this is just me defending the historical position. I actually like the latitudinarian understanding because I think it does a better job of dealing with "non-essentials." But I don't think that latitudinarianism was the original view of the post-Reformation church and I think it's pretty apparent historically.

That's all. But if you ever followed me here on GT, you'll also know I'm very latitudinarian in my views of "non-essentials" in conflict with the literal interpertation of the Articles. I don't think the Anglican communion represents the One True Church (in an exclusive manner) nor do I think the Articles are the last and truest word on Christian confessions. There's an ACNA church in our area if I wanted to go there.... ;)

The question wasn't whether the Articles themselves are ambiguous but about whether the oath given about them is. To say they give witness seems to me to be so obviously ambiguous as to be intentionally so. Either that or it's the result of quite extraordinary incompetence.
 
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file13

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The question wasn't whether the Articles themselves are ambiguous but about whether the oath given about them is. To say they give witness seems to me to be so obviously ambiguous as to be intentionally so. Either that or it's the result of quite extraordinary incompetence.

We're talking about two different things then.

Yes, originally the objection was about the oath, and yes, I'll concede (as I did earlier) that would one "could" interpret them to not refer to the Articles. I don't however think this is an honest approach to the oath given the preamble. The whole idea of a priest coming up with their own interpretation of an oath just strikes me as dishonest from the get go. But this dosen't change the fact that it may be the case that you're right and that most EoC priests do have their own interpretation in mind when being ordained.

As for the Articles, I was referring to their interpretation by latitudinarians. I was bringing this up because I was getting the sense that you thought I was an "Article thumper," and so I was trying to prove that they are binding and so we all should follow them. I just wanted you to know that that's not the case. I really could care less what any of my brothers and sisters in Christ think happens to the host during communion as long as they take it seriously and treat the act as if Christ were present. :thumbsup:
 
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