Catchment para 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims.

pauluk333

Active Member
May 21, 2015
64
14
44
✟290.00
Faith
Non-Denom
HI All

Please could someone explain this statement in the Roman Catholic catchment as it appears to indicate that Muslims will be saved and that the God of the bible and the God of Islam are the same, but there is nothing in there about Jesus being the only way.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330
 

LivingWordUnity

Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic
May 10, 2007
24,496
11,193
✟213,086.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
That part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church dealing with the question of Muslims and their beliefs about God is based on a statement made in the Vatican II document Lumen Gentium. And judging by what it says in the LG appendix, that the statement about Muslims is not and cannot be binding.

In the appendix to Lumen Gentium it says:

"Taking conciliar custom into consideration and also the pastoral purpose of the present Council, the sacred Council defines as binding on the Church only those things in matters of faith and morals which it shall openly declare to be binding. The rest of the things which the sacred Council sets forth, inasmuch as they are the teaching of the Church's supreme magisterium, ought to be accepted and embraced by each and every one of Christ's faithful according to the mind of the sacred Council. The mind of the Council becomes known either from the matter treated or from its manner of speaking, in accordance with the norms of theological interpretation."

"Faith and morals" is referring to the Catholic deposit of faith which does not include anything on Islam since that religion didn't exist when the deposit of faith was given to the Church.

In Lumen Gentium, it says:

"The Roman Pontiff and the bishops, in view of their office and the importance of the matter, by fitting means diligently strive to inquire properly into that revelation and to give apt expression to its contents; but a new public revelation they do not accept as pertaining to the divine deposit of faith." - Lumen Gentium, 25 (added emphasis)

Here are some things that were said by the Church about her hierarchy of teachings:

"It is the mission of the Magisterium to affirm the definitive character of the Covenant established by God through Christ with His People in a way which is consistent with the 'eschatological' nature of the event of Jesus Christ. It must protect God's People from the danger of deviations and confusion, guaranteeing them the objective possibility of professing the authentic faith free from error, at all times and in diverse situations. It follows that the sense and the weight of the Magisterium's authority are only intelligible in relation to the truth of Christian doctrine and the preaching of the true Word." - Donum Veritatis

"When comparing doctrines with one another, they should remember that in Catholic doctrine there exists a 'hierarchy' of truths, since they vary in their relation to the fundamental Christian faith." - Unitatis Redintegratio

"Let no Christian therefore, whether philosopher or theologian, embrace eagerly and lightly whatever novelty happens to be thought up from day to day, but rather let him weigh it with painstaking care and a balanced judgment, lest he lose or corrupt the truth he already has, with grave danger and damage to his faith." - Humani Generis

Some people, even some Catholics, will try to put Islam on equal footing with Judaism, but here's what a cardinal said about it:

"...Islam as a post-Christian religion and does not enter into the fundamental concerns of the Christian religion as Judaism does. As the apostle Paul said in his Letter to the Romans (11,17-24) and as the Second Vatican Council reiterated, the Church of the Gentiles is grafted, is nourished and is supported by the good olive tree of Israel. We can define Christianity without mentioning Islam, but we cannot do so without taking into account Judaism." - Card. Walter Kasper

However, if a Muslim believes that they are worshiping the same God as us then they are. There are Muslims who are more influenced by Christian culture. And since in some countries it's illegal to identify as anything other than Muslim there are some "Muslims" who are secretly Christian. So they would be worshiping the same God as us. However, I don't think that the radical Islamists worship the same God as us. And I don't think that they believe they do since they call us "pagans" because of their misunderstanding of the Holy Trinity.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: pdudgeon
Upvote 0

mark46

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 29, 2010
20,063
4,740
✟838,804.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
HI All

Please could someone explain this statement in the Roman Catholic catchment as it appears to indicate that Muslims will be saved and that the God of the bible and the God of Islam are the same, but there is nothing in there about Jesus being the only way.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

Muslims also believe that Jesus is one of the 6 major prophets and believe in His virgin birth.
 
Upvote 0

Armoured

So is America great again yet?
Site Supporter
Aug 31, 2013
34,358
14,061
✟234,967.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
and that the God of the bible and the God of Islam are the same,
The God of the Bible and the God of Islam are the same. Ditto the God of the Jews. The difference is what the different religions believe about that God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MikeK
Upvote 0

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟90,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Some Muslims likely will be saved, as some Jews, some Hindus, and some atheists. Similarily, not all Christians will be saved. We will be judged not only on what we did and did not do, but also on what options were available to us. The person who never had a real opportunity to know and serve Christ will not be damned for it.

Regarding God, there is but one God. He is the God of the Christians, but He is also the God that the Jews and Muslims and Deists worship, even if their ideas about Him are errant.
 
Upvote 0
Apr 21, 2015
1,919
1,045
✟25,183.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
They deny the son of God, His deity, His crucifixion; it's purpose and deny the Holy Trinity. These are all heresies of a false Gospel.

"I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also."

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world."​

Islam cannot be preparation for the Gospel, since it came after Christianity. The Jews also held the faith of Abraham, yet their rejection of the Messiah brought salvation to the Gentiles. The establishment of the Church, and the commandment in Scripture, Tradition and the Church to do the work of evangelism was for a reason.

This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved..

So I can only conclude that it means: God can, and does work mercy and salvation in those who through no fault of their own, do not know the way of truth and salvation. It is worded ambiguously, seeming to affirm salvation through Islam. Which of course is untrue, other than the suggested exception - which should apply to the spectrum of religions.

Those under Islam, as all other religions still need to repent of their heresies and turn to the true faith.

"There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LivingWordUnity

Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic
May 10, 2007
24,496
11,193
✟213,086.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Nope. Muslims, Jews, atheists, Hindus, all of these deny Christ, the Son of God, our Savior.
The Jews share with us the belief that God is our Father.

But in Islamic teaching it's considered "blasphemy" to call God our Father.
.
 
Upvote 0

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟90,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The Jews share with us the belief that God is our Father. But in Islamic teaching it's considered "blasphemy" to call God our Father.

Neat. Muslims, Jews, atheists, Hindus, all of these deny Christ, the Son of God, our Savior.
 
Upvote 0

LivingWordUnity

Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic
May 10, 2007
24,496
11,193
✟213,086.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Neat. Muslims, Jews, atheists, Hindus, all of these deny Christ, the Son of God, our Savior.
But Judaism is the only one out of those that is directly related to our faith. It is, in fact, the root of our faith.
 
  • Like
Reactions: benedictaoo
Upvote 0

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟90,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
But Judaism is the only one out of those that is directly related to our faith. It is, in fact, the root of our faith.

So? Jews need Christ for salvation like anyone else, and will be judged by their willingness and ability to accept Him and serve Him just like anyone else.
 
Upvote 0

LivingWordUnity

Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic
May 10, 2007
24,496
11,193
✟213,086.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
So? Jews need Christ for salvation like anyone else, and will be judged by their willingness and ability to accept Him and serve Him just like anyone else.
So the religions you listed are not all equal to each other in relation to our faith. I think the OP probably wants to know how the Church views it rather than what your personal feelings are about it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: benedictaoo
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟90,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
So the religions you listed are not all equal to each other in relation to our faith. I think the OP probably wants to know how the Church views it rather than what your personal feelings are about it.

What did I say that was false or an opinion? Be specific. I didn't make and statement comparing one non-Christian religion to the other. There is nothing I said that is at odds with Church teaching and shame on you for suggesting as much.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Armoured
Upvote 0

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟90,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
because Judaism is true, the others are not. Jews were the chosen. Others not really. We do come from, are the fulfilment of a true religion , the others not the case.

Again, so? Finish the statement. What does that have to do with the topic of salvation for non-Christians? Do you figure that today, in 2015, Jews who reject Christ, all things equal, will be more likely to gain salvation than any other person who rejects Christ?
 
Upvote 0

Armoured

So is America great again yet?
Site Supporter
Aug 31, 2013
34,358
14,061
✟234,967.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
What did I say that was false or an opinion? Be specific. I didn't make and statement comparing one non-Christian religion to the other. There is nothing I said that is at odds with Church teaching and shame on you for suggesting as much.
I have the weirdest suspicion you're about to dismissively be called a liberal... as though that counters anything you just said.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums