Cardinal George: no Catholic hospitals in 2 years unless HHS mandate is rescinded

Yarddog

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ahh the good ol argument by ridicule method has popped up again. Either that or your blinkers block out so much you just can't see. So lets deal with a few things you've said.
So, when a poster ridicules a person's Church, it is incorrect to point out what the Church does with the money that the government gives them?

and I've been involved in charities where it is written in their by-laws that they are not allowed to take more than 5% so it would seem you are operating for profit!
If you can prove your points then please prove them. Small local charities can be more efficient if they are working with an all volunteer work force.

maybe they think the catholic church is in grave error and I'm sure athiests think the catholic church is wrong so giving them moneysurely would be violating the conscience of those who object to the catholic church. if you can't understand that then it is because you don't want to.
If completely understand people in grave error of thinking that the Catholic Church is in grave error and atheists don't want their tax dollars going to help the Catholic Charities help the poor and sick people throughout the US. The same goes for employees of the Catholic Church and associated charities who pay taxes which goes to help things they don't support.

A small fraction of your tax dollars goes to help Catholic Charities or any of the other organizations which the government uses to help people in need.

The government is not funding the Catholic Church, it is helping fund its charity.

if you want to get into a fight over who has more involvement in charity then I can assure you the salvation army has you beaten hands down! Catholic church may do more simply because of its size but when compared to actual involvement by members you aren't even close to the salvos.
I don't want to get into a fight with anyone but then, LovelyLane was the one attacking the Catholic Church, I was just responding to him.
 
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Lovely Lane

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So, when a poster ridicules a person's Church, it is incorrect to point out what the Church does with the money that the government gives them?
I didn't see any ridicule. WHAT? Did you mean... it is incorrect to point out what the church does with the money from government...no accountability?


If you can prove your points then please prove them. Small local charities can be more efficient if they are working with an all volunteer work force.
Yarddog, prove your point, what % goes to admin/operating expense..11-12%?


If completely understand people in grave error of thinking that the Catholic Church is in grave error and atheists don't want their tax dollars going to help the Catholic Charities help the poor and sick people throughout the US. The same goes for employees of the Catholic Church and associated charities who pay taxes which goes to help things they don't support.
Catholic Charities is tax exempted, prove me wrong. This organization is tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code.

A small fraction of your tax dollars goes to help Catholic Charities or any of the other organizations which the government uses to help people in need.
prove it, how small? Compared to what, Dept.Of Defense?
The government is not funding the Catholic Church, it is helping fund its charity.
sure does look like it, when about 3 billion $$ of government money goes into their pocket yearly.

I don't want to get into a fight with anyone but then, LovelyLane was the one attacking the Catholic Church, I was just responding to him.
All puffed up and no one to blame, for I wasn't attacking the CC or RCC. Why insult me?
Trying to have a discussion and you continue to answer by deflecting inquiry from RCC and CC by claiming foul. Seems you believe no one should question your church or it's organizations. I believe that all those who take government monies should be fully vetted.
 
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TheDag

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So, when a poster ridicules a person's Church, it is incorrect to point out what the Church does with the money that the government gives them?


If you can prove your points then please prove them. Small local charities can be more efficient if they are working with an all volunteer work force.


If completely understand people in grave error of thinking that the Catholic Church is in grave error and atheists don't want their tax dollars going to help the Catholic Charities help the poor and sick people throughout the US. The same goes for employees of the Catholic Church and associated charities who pay taxes which goes to help things they don't support.

A small fraction of your tax dollars goes to help Catholic Charities or any of the other organizations which the government uses to help people in need.

The government is not funding the Catholic Church, it is helping fund its charity.


I don't want to get into a fight with anyone but then, LovelyLane was the one attacking the Catholic Church, I was just responding to him.
Lets see so that means you believe two wrongs make a right! After all if they attacked the catholic church your response was to attack others. In any case there was no attacking from Lovely lane. If you want to call it attacking then it wasn't personal attacks like yours were.


Charity is not exclusive to christianity. So there is no special reason why religious groups need to force their beliefs on others. I like the system in Australia. If you take government money then religious groups can not do certain things.
 
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drjean

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Cardinal George: no Catholic hospitals in 2 years unless HHS mandate is rescinded

This is probably exactly their plan, to eliminate all private hospitals and make everything controlled by a socialist government.

I doubt I will be around by then... rapture is a comin'! :)
 
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Yarddog

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Lets see so that means you believe two wrongs make a right! After all if they attacked the catholic church your response was to attack others. In any case there was no attacking from Lovely lane. If you want to call it attacking then it wasn't personal attacks like yours were.
You and he perceive it as an attack but I was just asking him questions pointing out the problems in his logic. He had a problem with the government giving money to the Catholic Charities so that they could provide assistance to people in need. The government also gives money to many non-Catholic religious Charities and has rules regulating what they can do with the money, ensuring that they cannot use it to promote their churches.

Charity is not exclusive to christianity. So there is no special reason why religious groups need to force their beliefs on others.
Who is forcing their beliefs in this issue? The religious org.s have their beliefs and the government is forcing them to go against those beliefs.

I like the system in Australia. If you take government money then religious groups can not do certain things.
That happens in America as well. When the government gives the religious organizations funding through the Faith-Based Initiatives Office, there are regulations.
 
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Lovely Lane

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Not quite Yarddog, I have a mindset that no organization should be tax exempt.
And since Cardinal George wants to place blame on HHS for stopping construction of hospitals, then we might as well speak about the whole enchilada, to include Catholic Charities and future hospital construction.

Thanks to Obama, HHS controls "Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships" program now. As long as HHS survives, so does this program. But Romney and all other GOP types say they will get rid of it as soon as they are elected.
"W" violated the constitution when he by stroke of pen created Faith-base Initiatives handing out billions of monies. Of course, conservatives here won't bark about that unconstitutional misstep by "W" Bush, right WBS?

So, Yarddog, why is it that Catholic Charities won't build new hospitals? Is it because of HHS/contraception or is it because of the slowed financing from banks.
 
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Yarddog

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Not quite Yarddog, I have a mindset that no organization should be tax exempt.
Organizations which make a profit are taxed. Catholic Charities is a non-profit organization. What is the government supposed to tax?
And since Cardinal George wants to place blame on HHS for stopping construction of hospitals, then we might as well speak about the whole enchilada, to include Catholic Charities and future hospital construction.
Include whatever you wish. Whenever the government forces these organization to violate their religious doctrine, it goes against the Constitution.
Thanks to Obama, HHS controls "Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships" program now. As long as HHS survives, so does this program.
And? Not sure how that has anything to do with this. The HHS has applied the portion of the Health Care Bill to religious orgs but Obama or SCOTUS may change that. Doing so would not affect the survival of the HHS.

"W" violated the constitution when he by stroke of pen created Faith-base Initiatives handing out billions of monies. Of course, conservatives here won't bark about that unconstitutional misstep by "W" Bush, right WBS?
What has SCOTUS ruled? There are provisions in the regulations which keep religious organizations who receive money from the OFBCI from using the money to promote their faith.
So, Yarddog, why is it that Catholic Charities won't build new hospitals?
Catholic Charities doesn't build hospitals.

Is it because of HHS/contraception or is it because of the slowed financing from banks.
I doubt it is because of banks but if religious org.s are forced to provide the coverage which violates doctrine, then those org.s are forced to choose between God and man.

Far more women are helped by all of the Catholic based organizations than the women who need their contraceptive needs paid for them by the Catholic org.s whom they work for.
 
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Yarddog

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I didn't see any ridicule. WHAT?
Was that post addressed to you or Dag? He's been making wild accusations and I did as well. Sorry if you were offended.

Did you mean... it is incorrect to point out what the church does with the money from government...no accountability?
Who pointed out what the Church does with the money from the government? You didn't, not did he. The Catholic Church and all of the different organizations connected to her give in-depth financial reports to the government showing where all money goes.

Yarddog, prove your point, what % goes to admin/operating expense..11-12%?
According to the Wiki site, which seems to be where some of the information which you and Dag are posting come from, it says that 89% of all money goes to the program costs.

Catholic Charities is tax exempted, prove me wrong. This organization is tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code.
Who said that it wasn't? Their employees do pay taxes though. The same goes to all people who work for the Catholic Church, in the US.
prove it, how small? Compared to what, Dept.Of Defense?
The money coming out of your tax dollar is mixed in with in that 2% other category.
Policy Basics: Where Do Our Federal Tax Dollars Go? — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

sure does look like it, when about 3 billion $$ of government money goes into their pocket yearly.
AS I think you said, prove it. I haven't found any evidence that the amount of money closely approaches the number which has been stated by you or Wiki.
http://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/document.doc?id=2882
All puffed up and no one to blame, for I wasn't attacking the CC or RCC. Why insult me?
As I said earlier, that was said to Dag because of what he said and not intended for you but I haven't attacked you. I asked you questions as to why you would be against the government giving money to Catholic Charities in other for them to help those in need. A Christian should love charity regardless of what Christian Church is providing it.
Trying to have a discussion and you continue to answer by deflecting inquiry from RCC and CC by claiming foul.
Where have I failed to answer anything in any manner different than what has been ask by posters?

Seems you believe no one should question your church or it's organizations.
I have no problem with people asking questions with proof to back them up but Dag has not been doing that. You have not, either, in many cases and have caught in the act.
I believe that all those who take government monies should be fully vetted.
The government does that and you should check with them if you need to understand what and why they do what they do before claiming a falsehood.
 
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TheDag

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Organizations which make a profit are taxed. Catholic Charities is a non-profit organization. What is the government supposed to tax?
non-profit is a term that is old now as it is not a true reflection. The new term is more accurate which is "not for profit". Non-profit makes people think like you do that they do not make a profit. However if they made a loss they could not keep providing services so non-profit organisations actually do need to make a profit.


You claim that you did not attack lovely lane well all I can say is apply the same standard to what LL writes. You call their stuff attacks yet don't consider yours to be attacks. Oh and I haven't been getting information from wiki.

You and he perceive it as an attack but I was just asking him questions pointing out the problems in his logic. He had a problem with the government giving money to the Catholic Charities so that they could provide assistance to people in need.
At no point in time did lovely lane say this. You should read more carefully.
 
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Yarddog

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non-profit is a term that is old now as it is not a true reflection. The new term is more accurate which is "not for profit". Non-profit makes people think like you do that they do not make a profit. However if they made a loss they could not keep providing services so non-profit organisations actually do need to make a profit.
And? The point is that there is no money put forth for distribution to share holders, since there are none. Board members and any other employees, if they are paid a salary pay taxes on their income just like everybody else.

You claim that you did not attack lovely lane well all I can say is apply the same standard to what LL writes.
You claimed that I ridiculed LL and I took that and said that standard and he ridiculed my Church. You put up the standard of the term ridicule, not me. Ridiculing is a form of attack.

You call their stuff attacks yet don't consider yours to be attacks. Oh and I haven't been getting information from wiki.
Let's go back to the word "ridicule" since that is what was first said by you and I. I should have stayed with that. I apologize.
If what I wrote to LL was ridicule then what he has said throughout this thread against the CC is ridicule.

He said that he considered the government giving the Catholic Charities tax money, which is used to help Americans in need, as a violation of his religious conscience. I proceeded to ask "why would helping poor people or others in need violate your religious conscience?"
Oh and I haven't been getting information from wiki.
Have you even provided any evidence to back up your wild claims? I kept asking for you to provide it but you didn't so we can only believe that you had no source.

At no point in time did lovely lane say this. You should read more carefully.
attack 2: to assail with unfriendly or bitter words

He said:
Why is it you get offensive when I ask question or challenge your opinions, especially of Catholic tax-exempt org's who rake in Billions of $$ from Federal gov?

Yarddog, if you don't feel up to answering my questions , then don't. Don't insult me.

No, that is not the full truth. The Catholic Charities org receives Federal Monies because it applies for them.
Attacking HHS, is equal to (same as), attacking the hand that feeds you!


The word attack fits the into what he claims that I did and he used the word to fit into what the Catholic Charities is doing when they only want the HHS to exempt them from paying for contraceptives because it violates their religious liberty and is not attacking them.
 
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Lovely Lane

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Yarddog, really? Have you read what you just posted, nothing but inane diction.

You often misquote me, at first I thought it was by mistake, but I don't think so now...
Yarddog... He said that he considered the government giving the Catholic Charities tax money, which is used to help Americans in need, as a violation of his religious conscience. I proceeded to ask "why would helping poor people or others in need violate your religious conscience?"
This is not what I said at all. Re-read post 56. I purposed a scenario, then asked the question Are not my Constitutional liberties violated? This was my response to your post 55. (If it makes any difference, please insert "Islamic Relief" in place of Catholic Charities).

Then I continued on and made a good point (I thought) in why the RCC religious conscience argument is moot.


 
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Yarddog

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Yarddog, really? Have you read what you just posted, nothing but inane diction.
Yes, I read it as I posted it and after I posted it.
You often misquote me, at first I thought it was by mistake, but I don't think so now...
I often misquote you? How often? Most all quotes are a feature of this forum. You go to the post that you want to respond to and hit the quote button. Everything is exactly what you wrote. Now, I may paraphase what you said when speaking to another person but if you can show where it does not reflect what you said, I will be happy to apologize.
This is not what I said at all. Re-read post 56.
You said: "For sake of further discussion, could the same be true when my tax dollar goes to Catholic Charities. Say that Catholic Charities take in 3 Billion of Federal monies each year, being Protestant, the Catholic Charities in my mind, violate my religious conscience. Are not my Constitutional liberties violated?"

In explaining to Dag the gist of our conversation, I wrote: "He said that he considered the government giving the Catholic Charities tax money, which is used to help Americans in need, as a violation of his religious conscience

So what part should be considered inane diction? You do know that the part in parentheses is a description of what the Catholic Charities does and not what you said.

I purposed a scenario, then asked the question Are not my Constitutional liberties violated? This was my response to your post 55. (If it makes any difference, please insert "Islamic Relief" in place of Catholic Charities).

I guess that your scenario was just inane diction since you didn't even check to see what the government gives the money for or the regulations put in place to ensure what the money is used for.
Then I continued on and made a good point (I thought) in why the RCC religious conscience argument is moot.
And now we see that it wasn't very well thought out and your scenario fails the test.

The CC uses the money to help those that the government mandates it to just as any Protestant charity does. Records also show that the money does not approach the 3 billion which you claimed.(I'd be happy to change my view if you can provide the evidence which supports your scenario.)

Catholic Charities carries the highest rating, 4 stars, given by Charity Navigator.
 
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TheDag

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just out of curiosity yarddog where are you getting information from for money catholic charities receives from the federal government. It is not included in their financial statements that are audited. Either that or catholic charities is putting out conflicting information for some reason.
 
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Yarddog

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just out of curiosity yarddog where are you getting information from for money catholic charities receives from the federal government. It is not included in their financial statements that are audited. Either that or catholic charities is putting out conflicting information for some reason.
It says in the report, for the 1st 6 months ended June 30, 2011
Federal revenue- $1,208,038
Federal grants- $414,130
 
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Lovely Lane

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CH00302.gif
CH00301.gif

11.24.09, Catholic Charities USA

Top Person: Larry Snyder
Top Pay:4 $194,082

Catholic Charities USA - Forbes.com
 
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