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Cardinal George: no Catholic hospitals in 2 years unless HHS mandate is rescinded

Discussion in 'Christian Current Affairs' started by Ave Maria, Feb 27, 2012.

  1. Ave Maria

    Ave Maria Ave Maria Gratia Plena

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    Cardinal George: no Catholic hospitals in 2 years unless HHS mandate is rescinded : News Headlines - Catholic Culture

    I am opposed to the HHS contraceptive mandate because it really does violate our freedom of religion. For those of you who don't know, the HHS contraceptive mandate is a mandate that the Obama administration came up with that basically states that all health insurance providers, including religious ones, must fully cover all contraceptives and sterilizations, including those that are abortifacient. It is supposed to cover these to the point that there is no copay or anything for the patient who has the health insurance. It violates a person's freedom of religion because it means that even people who are opposed to contraception or sterilization must pay for insurance that covers it.
     
  2. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor

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    I doubt that the HHS will make it past the Supreme Court or at least that section which covers the objectionable coverage. It would be a shame if the Church was forced to get out of the health care service or other human services which are sorely needed.
     
  3. WinBySurrender

    WinBySurrender New Member

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    Amen. :thumbsup:
     
  4. Zaac

    Zaac New Member

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    I REALLY hope that America has been paying attention to this. This is what happens when government gets too big and starts putting its hands into everything.

    Just wait and see how out of control they get if Obamacare kicks in next year. If they are gonna try to dictate what has to be paid for before the emperial federal government takes over healthcare, just wait and see how crazy they go once it kicks in.
     
  5. TheDag

    TheDag I don't like titles

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    yeah they shouldn't ignore the catholic churchs freedom of religion but they should allow the catholic church to ignore everyone elses freedom of religion! Can anyone say double standards!

    Nobodys freedom of religion is being violated here. An institution can not and does not have a faith. it can be made up of people with faith but it can not itself have faith. At the end of the day it is another example of the catholic church wanting to ignore laws. Same as their op shops in some places where they refuse to follow OH&S laws claiming they are a charity. If other poorer charities can manage then I'm sure they can too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2012
  6. Lovely Lane

    Lovely Lane Guest

    :thumbsup:
     
  7. Lovely Lane

    Lovely Lane Guest

    Whew! I read that little piece of inflammatory bias of Cardinal George. He sure does take a strong stand for the RCC, as expected. No wonder the parishioners are up in arms about the issue after reading this brief. For sure, George knows how to fire up the base. Comparing the communist Soviet Union to USA was over the top for my taste, but it sure does get the holy masses screaming. Ha3:)

    My idea of freedom of religion is that government not support one religion over another. (And all religions have the same tax breaks, they don't pay any)

    Those on this thread have once posted about how they support the free-market. But it seems they want free-market to take a backseat to religious organizations. How does that work?

    Having insurance to cover contraception is not the concern of RCC, unless they operate the insurance company as well. Women should have the right to choose, and the insurance company should make available the choice in contraception.

    I don't bow to mega churches of any brand or flavor, but it's about time they bow to the American public. Just look of how big and threatening they have become, a theocracy is here in form of influence peddling from mega religious operators.

    I expect the SCOTUS decision to favor HHS. It's nothing to do with freedom of religion issue, it is everything about freedom from theocracy by religious operators.
     
  8. WinBySurrender

    WinBySurrender New Member

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    When an employee goes to work for an organization, he or she knows the corporate culture. I can't imagine anyone going to work for the Catholic Church or its charities not knowing they do not support abortion and contraception. Chances are most of the employees are Catholic themselves. I have noted no outcry whatsoever from women working for the RCC or Catholic Charities or the various orders that own and operate non-profit hospitals about not being able to get contraception covered by insurance. If there has been any, I would suspect they are "plants" who likely lied on their applications and employment agreements acknowledging the culture, and then ignored the binding agreement they signed for the sake of political activism. The do have the right to choose, though. If they insist on getting contraception coverage, they are free to choose another job, the same as any other employee in any other business when they do not agree with the corporate culture.
     
  9. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor

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    And how has the Catholic Church ignored everyone else's freedom of religion?:confused::doh: The CC doesn't get involved in another church's choice of belief. You can choose to believe what you want. If you choose to work for a Catholic org. then you have made the free choice to work there and are free to seek employment else where.

    The US government cannot force a Church to sin.
    But it is the people, who own or operate the institution, who are being forced to offer insurance which goes against their faith.
    At the end of the day it is people ignorant of the Catholic Church which want to to complain about the Church keeping the faith.

    Not sure what Op shops you refer to.:confused:
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2012
    brewmama likes this.
  10. Lovely Lane

    Lovely Lane Guest

    yeah, I can understand that since I watched a Amish documentary on PBS last night and saw where they get a pass on building inspection among other things. You see, the Amish do not use smoke detectors but the State (PA), says all new buildings must have them.

    The court ruled that since the Amish has been in America for a very long time, and didn't just implement there doctrine to skew government regulations, that the Amish some how was grandfathered in and doesn't need to conform to many things that the government laws require.

    Other things were public education vs one-room church school (plus education only up to 8th grade), and some other battles won by the Amish.

    So, since the catholic and any other denomination or religious affiliation has been practicing certain doctrine for hundreds of years that now the government wishes to impede upon, perhaps the courts will see it the same as the Pennsylvania court ruled.

    But I still believe that through religious operators and the power of political influence peddling a informal theocracy has developed of which I continue to protest.
     
  11. Lovely Lane

    Lovely Lane Guest

    by not providing choice, Jesus offered choice, didn't he.
    ok, lets say I leave the catholic org go to Methodist org and they say since the catholic org has politically influenced SCOTUS and lawmakers, that no insurance company offers contraception coverage. And that is what's going on. Political power from the RCC, just hope Santorum isn't elected.

    No, but it can stop the church from sin.
    so the RCC owns the insurance company too? How does that work, imagine it too has tax exemptions.

    No, it is more like in the beginning of the day that one sees the RCC ignorant of free will in people having choice.

    I know that some RCC parishioners are following their faith, and that the RCC doctrine seems to be in question. But to me the issue is free will and choice and catholic political influence peddling.

    Yarddog; you mentioned that one could quit there job at catholic org and work somewhere else. That is true, but what about all the other catholic employees who use their salaries in purchasing street drugs, contraception, and anything else that the church doctrine says not to be involved in.
    Or is it only contraception that the church stands against?
     
  12. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor

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    Well duh, what do you think that a Cardinal of the Catholic Church would do?:doh:

    I haven't seen a single parishioner up in arms about this. I guess this is just another one of your remarks which you make without backing.:doh::doh::doh:
    Ignorance of history is no excuse for bad taste.:) Oh, btw, we don't scream during Masses, we worship Jesus Christ.
    If you had actually paid any attention about this in the news, you'd know that this is not just about the Catholic Church. The hearings held by Rep. Darrell Issa, and to which I gave you a link to, shows guests from the Lutheran Church, Southern Baptist Church, Evangelicals, and a Jews. I think that you need to keep yourself a little better informed.
    Free Market? What does free market have to do with this? Free market is about prices being set by supply and demand not what the market has to supply.
    You really need to educate yourself on the issue before making yourself look bad by making statements like this. Contraception use is considered a sin by the Catholic Church because it is man's attempt to interrupt the natural life system which God put in place by artificial means.
    Women have that right but it is governments which give those rights, not God. The Church is governed by God and not governments.
    The Church bows to Jesus Christ not the American public. If you wish to worship man then the government gives you that right.
    The Church is only threatening to those who have no or little faith.
    We can only wait and see.
    Let's see if that makes sense, unless you are saying that the operators of our religious institutions should be free to operate apart from a theocratic form of government.

    A theocracy is a form of government in which the official policy is to be governed by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided, or simply pursuant to the doctrine of a particular religious sect or religion.(Wiki)

    Since the US is not a theocracy what government are you referring to?:confused: The Catholic Church is not a government in any place other than the Vatican state. In the US, the CC is a Christian Church fully in communion with the Pope but it is not a government. The CC is not a theocracy anymore than the Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican or any other Christian Church is.

    Our Constitution guarantees freedom of religion and our faith says that contraceptives are a sin. Your faith may not but many other faiths are siding with the CC on this issue.
     
  13. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor

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    Yes, he gave us the choice to follow him or to not follow him. The Catholic Church is doing so.
    Hmmm, have you had your coffee this morning? What is that babbling about? The CC isn't telling anyone what insurances can cover, it is saying that the US should not force people to offer coverage which violates their faith.
    Rambling again? What does that have to do with this OP?
    Stop, take a deep breath and think before you reply. What made you think that the context of my statement had anything to do with this?
    Talking just like a person clueless about what the Church teaches. The CC teaches free will and the Church doesn't say that the people cannot make a choice, they are saying that the Church has the free will choice to follow the will of God. The people have the free will to follow their faith but not to force that on the CC.
    So, we have the "influence peddling" of the Obama administration and the "influence peddling" of the Catholic Church. What is wrong with the Church using whatever legal and moral means available to ensure that they are not forced to sin.
    I'm not sure how your mind makes these connections? The stands against all sin but the US government is not attempting to force the Church to provide street drugs or other items which may violate doctrine, so lets understand the issue at hand and remained focused on that.

    Do you think that the Church or Jesus can control what all believers do whether they are employees of the Church or parishioners? Like Jesus, the Church does the shepherding but cannot force the sheep to remain in the safety of the flock. Some wonder off and the shepherd will go looking for them but some will be eaten by wild animals which are lurking. The Church tries to teach the sheep of the dangers and the Church is always there for those who are in need but they will not say that something is not sin when it is taught as sin.
     
  14. Lovely Lane

    Lovely Lane Guest

    be truthful
    Seems you are puffed up about it, especially when I support the other side. :p Look at this OP, and other threads plus posts in others threads. HHS hit a sore spot, and I hope they win.
    As you can read, I said masses not Mass. Since Cardinal George and you like history,wonder what you and Cardinal George would think about a comparison of Soviet Union and the Inquisition Ecclesiastical Court, would that be a fair comparison?
    Thanks for the suggestion. My suggestion to you is to relax, the Bishops have a handle on it.
    right, and the post was to those who think that the free-market is much better than government involvement, to include the RCC theocracy. A secular operated hospital that pays taxes as opposed to a religious operated hospital that doesn't pay taxes.
    Oh, I know the deal yarddog. Don't act like many catholic women and men don't use contraception, they do. Natural life system? Oh Ok, whatever you believe.
    Seems to me you are saying here that other churches who do not object to HHS are not governed by God, you shouldn't speak like that. And concerning our government, I think the governments are instituted to protect these rights, but the rights do not come from the government. Do you remember these words " We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness".
    Why sure enough, maybe I over stated that. I should have said that all religion org's in the USA should pay taxes.
    That isn't accurate. In some places where one is denied communion, one's soul is in jeopardy. Nothing in Scripture that I have found speaks to that, it must be one of those man-made edicts.
    What do you think?
    Lets look at tax-free Vatican City, a theocracy which governs all RCC properties and personnel worldwide. Nothing happens without Pope or his reps. approval.
    However, the point I made was of the informal theocracy that is created by RCC political power & influence. You can side step the claim, but it is true.
     
  15. Lovely Lane

    Lovely Lane Guest

     
  16. TheDag

    TheDag I don't like titles

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    are they following God or the catholic church?



    what is this teaching based on? The CC thinks that a couple are not offering everything to their spouse if they use contraception. However anyone should be able to plainly see that that is actually denying their spouse of something called choice. If a couple discuss it and make a choice together then they are offering each other everything. Don't tell me i have their teaching wrong because it is available to read on the vatican website.
     
  17. Prayer Circle

    Prayer Circle New Member

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    I think another way to look at the HHS contraceptive mandate in this case is that, while it may/would require Catholic entities to comply, it does not force Catholics to utilize the services it provides for.

    While any threat to close Catholic hospitals in reprisal against the HHS contraceptive mandate, impacts all Catholics for that lack of health care in general.

    Why penalize the Catholic community by closing Catholic Hospitals, when every member of the Catholic community has a choice not to participate or utilize what the HHS contraceptive mandate provides for.
     
  18. Lovely Lane

    Lovely Lane Guest

    That is what I thought, but still they find something to complain about, like being forced to have the option. good grief.

    I'm thinking that this isn't the full story for mentioning possible hold on future building. I checked Health Facilities Management (HFM) and the American Society for Healthcare Engineering (ASHE). Seems that a slow down was anticipated. But renovation and expansion of existing facilities is now favored.

    It may be true that many are waiting to see the out come of the HHS mandate in SCOTUS before financing is attainable. But I don't see closing hospitals when so many are profitable, especially the church owned hospitals, although the RCC may sell to secular operators. (doubt it)
     
  19. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor

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    He was.
    I'm not puffed about anything, I just don't care much when people make "puffed up" false claims because they want to make their position seem as if had validity.
    Yes, I am aware of that but that doesn't keep from using it to poke a little jab does it.:p
    It might fit "if" the person used an actual historical fact instead of made up facts like some do. The Church is not proud of some of the things which occurred in its past or the things done by others in the name of the Church.
    I am relaxed, other than about the tornadoes which are dancing all around me. The can handle their part but since the Bishops are not on this forum, I'll do my part educating people about the truth of what is occurring.
    I guess that you refer to yourself since you are the one bringing up the free market, which has nothing to do with the Health Care Bill.
    Looks like you don't know much about Catholic or other hospitals operated by Churches. They pay taxes just as any hospital does.
    It sure doesn't appear as you do. Saying that you understand and then allowing your post to prove you wrong does nothing for your position.

    The Catholic Church is not Catholic women. The Church knows that Catholics sin, men, women, priests, nuns, bishops, and Popes. Catholics many times go against Church doctrine but the Church does not judge them for that, they try to help them deal with their sin.
    It is good, then, that what seems to you is not what I was saying.


    On the contrary, rights do come from the government. Governments can claim that they come from God but unless they agree with God's will then those claims carry no divine power.

    Do you know why the patriots made this claim?

    The Catholic Church and most other Churches do pay taxes on certain items but it is up the Congress on who "should" pay taxes, not you.
    Why are those people denied communion? Haven't you read Paul's epistles? "Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord."
    Methinks that you do not know what or why the CC does what it does.

    That is not true unless by reps, you mean the Archbishops and Cardinal in the US. The Pope does not keep up with everything which the Catholic Church does nor can he. Just as the President of the US does not know of what is occurring in all places of our government neither can the Pope. Separate parts of the Church take care of what is going on in their areas.

    Now, what is your definition of an informal theocracy and how has the CC created some sort of it in the US?

    I see, you are one of those conspiracy theorists. Explains a lot.
     
  20. Lovely Lane

    Lovely Lane Guest

    OK yarddog, I won't post to again about this issue, even though you skirt the Q&A and deflect conversation to what you wish it to be by not giving straight answers to basic questions.

    Your attempt to goad me by calling me conspiracy theorists is fruitless, only shows you are still puffed up over this issue.

    The doctor told me that it takes about three days for ones blood pressure to go down to normal after being puffed up. Take my suggestion to calm down.:)
     
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