Can you help with a theological debate?

[ceruleanbutterfly]

Hello my brothers and sisters in Christ,

I am having a theological argument and I would love it if I could get some help with it.

The question is this, after the fall did the fallen angels mate with humans?

Were children born from these 'unions'?

Thank you for your help!

 

[Lukaris]

Hello my brothers and sisters in Christ,

I am having a theological argument and I would love it if I could get some help with it.

The question is this, after the fall did the fallen angels mate with humans?

Were children born from these 'unions'?

Thank you for your help![/

 

[buzuxi02]

There was an early belief that Angels mated with human women, based on the book of Enoch. This was a popular book in Judaism but it was eventually discarded. From 1BC to about 3AD it was influential and some held it as scripture.

Its unlikely that Angels can procreate with humans. As the species mate with their "own kind". Spiritual begins have no material bodies capable of procreating at all.

Instead the sons of God in genesis 6 is probably referring to those of a royal lineage. Princes and kings were universally considered to be descended or have a blessing from divinity. This would then refer to the lineage of Seth. The daughters of men were the offspring of Cain who was ejected and banished. Basically the looser morals and provacative dress of the women of Cain's lineage easily seduced the men of Seth's lineage where they intermarried, not keeping themselves apart as a holy kingdom. Basically no different than today.

 

[Lukaris]

...

 

[stevenfrancis]

Hello my brothers and sisters in Christ,

I am having a theological argument and I would love it if I could get some help with it.

The question is this, after the fall did the fallen angels mate with humans?

Were children born from these 'unions'?

Thank you for your help!

With God all things are possible, but it would not be very likely since angels are spiritual beings, and each one was created from nothing by God, and they do not regenerate/reproduce. The closest they can come, is that they can manipulate our senses to seem to US as humans, if they so desire, (like when they showed up at Abraham's place in the OT). But my understanding is that the human form is a kind of trick on our senses. Not an actual enfleshment of an angel. That's all I've got on this. There's a marvelous book by Dr. Peter Kreeft called Angels and Demons, which kind of lays out all we know about, well, angels and demons, and what we know doesn't seem to include interspecies reproduction. Good luck with your debate. I'll check out other answer you get here, and see what others have to say. I'm interested in all things angel.

 

[Lukaris]

..

 

[prodromos]

I do not believe sexual union is possible between man and spirits. I suspect these passages need to be read very carefully because I don't believe the Church has said much if anything about this. Individual Fathers may have had a go at interpreting, but nothing has been definitively stated by the Church.

 

[Shiranui117]

St. John Chrysostom and/or St. Basil the Great says no.

 

[Bunnelby]

Hmm. I was always told that the Sons of God were of the tribe of Seth, while the Daughters of Men were the tribe of Cain. Or something like that, though I may have mixed that up a bit.

 

[buzuxi02]

That is the conventional interpretation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Hello my brothers and sisters in Christ,

I am having a theological argument and I would love it if I could get some help with it.

The question is this, after the fall did the fallen angels mate with humans?

Were children born from these 'unions'?

Thank you for your help!

no, angels do not have our reproductive organs since they are not material.

 

[Lukaris]

Check this thread many early fathers believed fallen angels were the "sons of God" in Genesis 6:4.

The Book of Enoch - Tasbeha.org Community

ex.

Athenagorus (2nd Century)
A Plea for the Christians, Chapter XXIV
ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Just as with men, who have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honour the good or punish the bad, unless vice and virtue were in their own power; and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them by you, and others faithless), so is it among the angels. Some, free agents, you will observe, such as they were created by God, continued in those things for which God had made and over which He had ordained them; but some outraged both the constitution of their nature and the government entrusted to them: namely, this ruler of matter and its various forms, and others of those who were placed about this first firmament (you know that we say nothing without witnesses, but state the things which have been declared by the prophets); these fell into impure love of virgins, and were subjugated by the flesh, and he became negligent and wicked in the management of the things entrusted to him. Of these lovers of virgins, therefore, were begotten those who are called giants.
​

St. Jerome (4th to 5th Century)
Hebrew Questions on the book of Genesis, 6.4, translated C.T.R. (Robert) Hayward, p. 37

Moreover there were giants on the earth in those days; and after these things, as the sons of God were accustomed to go into the daughters men, so they would breed with them. Those were the giants from of old, men called by name." In the Hebrew, it was following: "Falling ones" (that is "annaphilim") "were on the earth in those days. And after these things, when the sons of the gods used to go in to the daughters of men and breed with them, these were the mighty ones from the beginning, men called by name." Instead of "falling ones" or giants, Symmachus translated 'violent ones.' The name "falling ones is indeed fitting both for angels and for the offspring of the holy ones.
​

A summary on MOnachos:
Dear all,

A while ago, I sought to investigate the opinion of all the Fathers of the first four centuries who addressed the issue of the identity of the 'Sons of God'. Here were my results:

Were the Sons of God incorporeal Angels?

b. 100 - St Justin Martyr - YES
b. 115 - St Iraneous of Lyons - YES
b. 150 - St Clement of Alexandria - YES
b. 160 - Tertullian - YES
b. 133 - St. Athenagoras of Alexandria - YES
b. 240 – Lactantius – YES
b. 275 - Eusebius of Caesarea - YES
b. 306 - St Ephraim the Syrian - NO
b. 315 - St Hilary of Poitiers - YES
b. 340 - St Jerome - YES
b. 344 - St John Chrysostom - NO
b. 354 - St Augustine – NO
b. 360 – Sulpicius Severus - YES
b. 374 - St Ambrose – YES

That the 'sons of God' were Angels, is, I believe, further implied in Jude's epistle:


Quote

6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. 8In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings.
​

In XC
Athanasius

Nephilim (Genesis 6.4) - patristic commentary requested - Scripture - Monachos.net Discussion Community

 

[ArmyMatt]

just outta curiosity, for the Fathers who said no, do you know what they said the Sons of God were?

 

[Lukaris]

just outta curiosity, for the Fathers who said no, do you know what they said the Sons of God were?

St. John Chrysostom refers to them as the sons of Seth in his 22nd homily on Genesis. He considers the understanding that angels mating with human females as "blasphemous" & "deranged". This is perplexing since other fathers undrstood otherwise; I think it is safe to say that all understood this to be a grave sin. Apparently different understandings are within the mind of the church; this must also be minor theology.

 

[Kristos]

When the Sodomites come to Lot's house in order to "know" the angels there doesn't seem to be any implication that this would be impossible...quite the contrary...Lot offers his virgin daughters to the crowd so that they would leave the angels alone. Whether or not it is really possible is another thing, but it does seem that the tradition of Genesis would indict such a belief. Who knows - maybe this was used to explain/euphamize illegitimate children. From a Christian perspective - where would we be if we really believed that a virgin could not conceive without knowing a man?

 

[ArmyMatt]

St. John Chrysostom refers to them as the sons of Seth in his 22nd homily on Genesis. He considers the understanding that angels mating with human females as "blasphemous" & "deranged". This is perplexing since other fathers undrstood otherwise; I think it is safe to say that all understood this to be a grave sin. Apparently different understandings are within the mind of the church; this must also be minor theology.

interesting

 

[buzuxi02]

The problem with angels mating with the species is that it would mean it still happens. No reason for it to have been a singular event. And this would also have repercussions on the incarnation, that Christ became man to redeem us from ancestral sin. Not all then are descendant from Adam.

 

[jckstraw72]

And this would also have repercussions on the incarnation, that Christ became man to redeem us from ancestral sin. Not all then are descendant from Adam.

this is a great point.

 

[Steinbeck]

The Nephilim were still descendants of Adam, even if they were children of a weird demon-human union.

As for it continuing to happen, I don't think that necessarily follows given that several things have changed since then--foremost being the Incarnation of Christ, but also the cataclysm of the flood, and the demise of the Nephilim themselves. It is clear that Noah was not one of them. Therefore, there were none surviving after the flood.

 

[buzuxi02]

Why cant an angel mate with a human women now if they did back then? It would mean a few people walking around are actually hybrids.

I have used the term nephillim to describe those humans who call themselves transgender. Not because I thought they were partially extra terrestrial but because it fits.