Can we eat pork now?

Sophrosyne

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Galatians 5:2-4 (NASB)
2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Galatians 3:10 (NASB)
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
I think I hear crickets when people read this... as they stare right past the words like looking at the old signoff screens on an ancient black and white tv set at the wee hours in the morning hearing the tone....... eeeeeeeeeee
 
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Sophrosyne

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Galatians 3:10 (NASB)
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
You do realize why it says you are cursed for breaking the law? Because part of the covenant of the Law was being blessed for keeping it so one would think such:
1)Keep law = blessed
2)don't keep law = cursed
3)not under the law = neither blessed or cursed according to the law.
 
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dollarsbill

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You do realize why it says you are cursed for breaking the law? Because part of the covenant of the Law was being blessed for keeping it so one would think such:
1)Keep law = blessed
2)don't keep law = cursed
3)not under the law = neither blessed or cursed according to the law.
Galatians 3:10 (NASB)
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse;

I am not under the Law. Paul said he wasn't either.
 
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Harry3142

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You do realize why it says you are cursed for breaking the law? Because part of the covenant of the Law was being blessed for keeping it so one would think such:
1)Keep law = blessed
2)don't keep law = cursed
3)not under the law = neither blessed or cursed according to the law.


The law's purpose was never to make us blessed. Instead, its original purpose was only as a 'constitution' which enabled a diverse people to gather together in order to form a cohesive society. Even the promise which God made to the Hebrews as a reward for their keeping his laws and commandments had nothing whatsoever to do with salvation:

If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land - your grain, new wine and oil - the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you. You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor any of your livestock without young. The Lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you. (Deuteronomy 7:12-15,NIV)

There's the contract which God agreed to. Do you see anything there concerning there even being an afterlife, muchless the people's earning a place in it through the keeping of laws and commandments? No, you don't, and that's because the same Torah that gave the Hebrews their laws and commandments also told them that this was their fate:

By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return. (Genesis 3:19,NIV)

The laws that are referred to in the New Testament are not the original laws and commandments of Torah alone. Instead, they are those laws and commandments + literally thousands of laws in subsets that were added to the original laws over the intervening centuries. These laws were put in other books called the Mishna, the Midrash, and ultimately the Talmud. Under the Sabbath commandment alone over 1,000 laws had been put in a subset. This was done because those who believed in the resurrection knew that the laws of Torah were insufficient in-and-of themselves as a means of achieving a blessed state. So in order to convert what were written as purely societal laws into laws that conferred perfection on those who followed them, they needed to be added to on a huge scale.

So if you expect to be blessed through the keeping of laws and commandments, you will need to combine the laws of Torah with the subsets in the Talmud, and then follow the thousands of laws perfectly that you find there. The laws of Torah will not suffice; you will need all of those laws in order to accomplish through legalism what Christ accomplished for us through his sacrifice.
 
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Sophrosyne

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The law's purpose was never to make us blessed. Instead, its original purpose was only as a 'constitution' which enabled a diverse people to gather together in order to form a cohesive society. Even the promise which God made to the Hebrews as a reward for their keeping his laws and commandments had nothing whatsoever to do with salvation:
I agree the law's purpose was in itself not to make us blessed but as you equate after this it is essentially a foundation of the old covenant that upon keeping it included blessing so separating it from being the source of being blessed doesn't really totally work. Personally I think the blessing was from following God (in faith) and God used the law in a fashion to test the people sort of like putting them in a fence and seeing which side they would jump off of it on, with the Law as the fence itself.
If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land - your grain, new wine and oil - the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you. You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor any of your livestock without young. The Lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you. (Deuteronomy 7:12-15,NIV)

There's the contract which God agreed to. Do you see anything there concerning there even being an afterlife, muchless the people's earning a place in it through the keeping of laws and commandments? No, you don't, and that's because the same Torah that gave the Hebrews their laws and commandments also told them that this was their fate:

By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return. (Genesis 3:19,NIV)

The laws that are referred to in the New Testament are not the original laws and commandments of Torah alone. Instead, they are those laws and commandments + literally thousands of laws in subsets that were added to the original laws over the intervening centuries. These laws were put in other books called the Mishna, the Midrash, and ultimately the Talmud. Under the Sabbath commandment alone over 1,000 laws had been put in a subset. This was done because those who believed in the resurrection knew that the laws of Torah were insufficient in-and-of themselves as a means of achieving a blessed state. So in order to convert what were written as purely societal laws into laws that conferred perfection on those who followed them, they needed to be added to on a huge scale.

So if you expect to be blessed through the keeping of laws and commandments, you will need to combine the laws of Torah with the subsets in the Talmud, and then follow the thousands of laws perfectly that you find there. The laws of Torah will not suffice; you will need all of those laws in order to accomplish through legalism what Christ accomplished for us through his sacrifice.
I do see blessing equated in the OT via the law but not directly but through keeping it under the old covenant God blessed Israel as a nation, or punished (cursed) them for breaking it including sending them into slavery at the hands of enemies. I think on a personal level one is cursed with punishment for breaking the law in Paul's time sometimes it meant death by stoning in some instances. I think Paul saw overall that there was nothing to be gained by the law once the gospel of grace revealed to him said it was not an integral part of the new covenant and that the blessings did not outweigh the curses as breaking the law was not a 50/50 blessing/curse deal with God. Contracts tend to need to be mostly fulfilled for the party to pay off the other in the end (blessing) and the covenant with the law required the nation to participate properly not just certain individuals.
 
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Harry3142

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I agree the law's purpose was in itself not to make us blessed but as you equate after this it is essentially a foundation of the old covenant that upon keeping it included blessing so separating it from being the source of being blessed doesn't really totally work. Personally I think the blessing was from following God (in faith) and God used the law in a fashion to test the people sort of like putting them in a fence and seeing which side they would jump off of it on, with the Law as the fence itself.

I do see blessing equated in the OT via the law but not directly but through keeping it under the old covenant God blessed Israel as a nation, or punished (cursed) them for breaking it including sending them into slavery at the hands of enemies. I think on a personal level one is cursed with punishment for breaking the law in Paul's time sometimes it meant death by stoning in some instances. I think Paul saw overall that there was nothing to be gained by the law once the gospel of grace revealed to him said it was not an integral part of the new covenant and that the blessings did not outweigh the curses as breaking the law was not a 50/50 blessing/curse deal with God. Contracts tend to need to be mostly fulfilled for the party to pay off the other in the end (blessing) and the covenant with the law required the nation to participate properly not just certain individuals.

St. Paul himself recognized that there was a serious problem with attempting to keep the law. He spoke of that problem quite candidly:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do - this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! (Romans 7:14-24a,NIV)

2,000 years later psychologists have given what St. Paul described a name; it's called 'paradoxical intention', and it is universal among all people. Basically, it is a quirk in our nature that condemns to failure anything that we consciously try to do. Psychologists have even used it in the treatment of their patients ("Try to stay awake," told to those with mild insomnia and "Try to get writer's cramp," told to those whose profession requires them to write, but they find themselves afflicted with this problem, are just two examples). It is also the basis for the saying I first heard decades ago; "The harder you try, the faster you fail."

So like our salvation, our words and actions must depend not on what we ourselves can accomplish, but what God himself can accomplish. Since our following a set of laws is doomed to failure because of this inherent flaw in our psyche, God has seen fit to 'rein in' our sinful nature himself, and then replace that nature with a new, spiritual nature:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

At first this looks like a list of Do's and Do Not's. But looking at it more closely, we realize that many of 'the acts of the sinful nature' are the emotions which are the very foundation of our old natures. For us to replace our own emotional base can be compared to a leopard trying to exchange its spots for the stripes of a tiger. It can't be done by us; we need outside help in order to bring these base emotions under subjection. And this outside help is the direct intervention of the Spirit in order to 'rewire' us so that we can live our lives in accordance with God's will.

It is the Spirit, rather than we ourselves, who 'reins in' our sinful nature. As the first paragraph of this passage states, he is the one doing battle with it, and our part is to follow dutifully behind him as he continues to advance on it.

But he doesn't stop with merely conquering our sinful nature. Instead, he implants in us a new nature (the fruit of the Spirit). It is these 'fruit' that enable us to say and do what conforms to God's will. It is against these 'fruit' that there is no law, because those who have their lives governed by them have fulfilled the spirit of that law. And they have fulfilled it not through trying to keep laws and commandments, but rather through their new nature's automatically being 'in synch' with the spirit of that law.

We all know that if our intellect wants us to either perform a certain act, or refrain from performing that act, but our emotional core desires that we do the opposite, we will in all probability do what our emotions dictate rather than what our intellect dictates. Our emotional core is simply too strong for us to resist its advances. That's why we need to have that emotional core itself brought 'in line' with what God wants of us, or else we cannot say and do what God wants of us. It is when that emotional core itself 'pushes' us to say and do what God wants of us that the job gets done.

God knows this. That's why he sends his Spirit to engage our sinful nature in battle, defeat it, and replace its influence over our lives with his own influence (the fruit of the Spirit). So like our salvation, the words and actions which we say and do following our accepting that salvation are dependent on him. And this is as it should be, because it 'slams the door' on the most dangerous attitude that anyone can possess, namely, the attitude of being proud.

It is accepted that the most dangerous sin is the sin of Pride. But by making our salvation dependent on our accepting what he has done, and by making our words and action also dependent on our trusting his power to himself alter our nature so that it now conforms to what he wants of us, he has eliminated any reason for us to boast. Our salvation was earned by him and then presented to us as a free gift. Our new nature was also earned by him and implanted within us as another free gift. The credit for both is entirely God's, with us as merely the recipients of those gifts.
 
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stan1953

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Some people think the law of unclean meats was part of the "old covenant" and thus is obsolete and "ready to vanish away" (Hebrews 8:13)

But when I read Acts 10:9-16 I was VERY confused...

In Peter's vision, a bunch of "unclean" animals were given to Peter and God told him to eat them; but Peter was like "no way! I've never eaten anything unclean before!". God then specially cleansed them so Peter could eat...

This doesn't make any sense. If the unclean meats laws were abolished then why would God still consider some animals "unclean?"

Furthermore, Peter lived with Jesus for 3 years... I think if Jesus ever said anything about the unclean meats laws being abolished, then surely Peter of all people would have known this.

Anyone think it's OK to eat pork and shellfish now? Or is Red Lobster of the devil? :p


The key to Acts 10 IS verse 13 & 15... Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
“Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” Now look at verse 28; “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.
So God said this to Peter 3 times and He took it to mean associating with Gentiles. This was a big deal for Peter as he was orthodox. He said as much in verse 14. What God did was to deal with his bigoted orthodoxy. Now I also believe God meant food as well. If you're going to fellowship with Gentiles, sooner or later you're going to have to eat their food which is more than likely NOT going to be clean or kosher.
Now I have heard that pork is not the best meat to eat, but never from nutritionists. Only from people who want to make it an issue. I think God plainly tells us here that it should NOT be an issue, so let's not make it one. As a diabetic I have to eat ALL things in moderation and that is also what the Bible tells us to do. So feel free to eat that bacon, or ham, or pork chop...just don't live on it.
:cool:
 
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tzadik

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The key to Acts 10 IS verse 13 & 15... Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
“Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” Now look at verse 28; “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.
So God said this to Peter 3 times and He took it to mean associating with Gentiles. This was a big deal for Peter as he was orthodox. He said as much in verse 14. What God did was to deal with his bigoted orthodoxy. Now I also believe God meant food as well. If you're going to fellowship with Gentiles, sooner or later you're going to have to eat their food which is more than likely NOT going to be clean or kosher.
Now I have heard that pork is not the best meat to eat, but never from nutritionists. Only from people who want to make it an issue. I think God plainly tells us here that it should NOT be an issue, so let's not make it one. As a diabetic I have to eat ALL things in moderation and that is also what the Bible tells us to do. So feel free to eat that bacon, or ham, or pork chop...just don't live on it.
:cool:

Thanks for your opinion stan.
Couple of things…
It’s very dangerous to “assume” lessons, teachings and applications in Scripture when none is given.
For instance, you did a good job understanding the issue of Acts 10 and 11 to be in reference to associating with Gentiles. But that is all the Scriptures provide as a lesson/application.

To assume and say “I also believe God meant food as well,” is to assume something that isn’t there. This speculative view allows for anything, and can result in needless discussions over “what ifs”.
But I think the main issue that even allows this assumption is the belief that ‘what was previously instructed by God to His children, can change/can become obsolete/can be amended/can now be broken’.

If we see all of God’s Instructions starting from Genesis through Revelation as THE standard of Godly and righteous living for God’s children, then we wouldn’t even attempt to find a “loophole” in God’s clear Instructions of what is to be considered food and what is not.
With this Berean-like approach of Scriptures, we can correctly understand the application, instructions and teachings in God’s Word. Because He would never teach something in Acts 10, that would contradict what He previously taught in say…Leviticus 11.

Because God’s standard always remains the same…whether we like it or not.
 
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stan1953

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Thanks for your opinion stan.
Couple of things…
It’s very dangerous to “assume” lessons, teachings and applications in Scripture when none is given.
For instance, you did a good job understanding the issue of Acts 10 and 11 to be in reference to associating with Gentiles. But that is all the Scriptures provide as a lesson/application.

To assume and say “I also believe God meant food as well,” is to assume something that isn’t there. This speculative view allows for anything, and can result in needless discussions over “what ifs”.
But I think the main issue that even allows this assumption is the belief that ‘what was previously instructed by God to His children, can change/can become obsolete/can be amended/can now be broken’.

If we see all of God’s Instructions starting from Genesis through Revelation as THE standard of Godly and righteous living for God’s children, then we wouldn’t even attempt to find a “loophole” in God’s clear Instructions of what is to be considered food and what is not.
With this Berean-like approach of Scriptures, we can correctly understand the application, instructions and teachings in God’s Word. Because He would never teach something in Acts 10, that would contradict what He previously taught in say…Leviticus 11.

Because God’s standard always remains the same…whether we like it or not.


You're welcome and I will try to clarify the rest for you if I can.

Acts 10:13, Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.” God said this 3 times. He didn't say "Get up and fellowship".
Luke recorded what God wanted. Peter applied the vision to his situation. Verse 48 shows Peter stayed with THEM for a few days. Is it NOT unreasonable to assume that Peter ONLY ate Kosher while he was there?

Hebrews 8:13; By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
God says this, NOT me.
Romans 11:29 states; for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Nothing about the Mosaic or Levitical Law being irrevocable, especially in light of the above scriptures. Besides, what do you have to say about Lev 19:27?... “Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."

God did established many PRINCIPLES in the OT, which of course are still in effect today based on the Spirit of the Law, those He does NOT set aside, like tithing.

I am NOT going to advocate that ANYONE eat pork, but what God showed in Acts 10 is clear for anyone to see. His Word is true, let every man be a liar!

:cool:
 
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dayhiker

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stan .. good points.

Have you looked at the view that both the OT and the NT have the same standard of being love God and love people. Using verse like Jesus saying to love God is the first commandment and the second is like unto to to love people. Paul saying love is the greatest. Other verse that say love is the only way to fulfill the law. The OT then has some specific laws for the Jews. Gentiles were never asked to keep the Jewish purity laws or a new set of purity laws in the NT. We are just to continue in the essence of the law to love God and to love people.

This makes a lot of sense to me in making the OT and NT consistent. But people that want a written set of laws, instructions, seem to get really nervous at loving being the standard.
 
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stan1953

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stan .. good points.

Have you looked at the view that both the OT and the NT have the same standard of being love God and love people. Using verse like Jesus saying to love God is the first commandment and the second is like unto to to love people. Paul saying love is the greatest. Other verse that say love is the only way to fulfill the law. The OT then has some specific laws for the Jews. Gentiles were never asked to keep the Jewish purity laws or a new set of purity laws in the NT. We are just to continue in the essence of the law to love God and to love people.

This makes a lot of sense to me in making the OT and NT consistent. But people that want a written set of laws, instructions, seem to get really nervous at loving being the standard.


Yes I totally agree. These are the principles I refer to. Like tithing, these principles existed before the written Mosaic or Levitical Law. Jesus Himself in the Gospels, corrects some of the ways the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law had polluted God's principles, such as tithing, divorce, justice, mercy and faithfulness, as found in Matthew 23:23

I study from the OT all the time and there are great principles to be learned.
I recently found a very eye opening interpretation of God in Gen 1:1....something that very neatly draws our concept of God into the same concept that the NT teaches. I was amazed.
It is however the seat of the OC and we are NOT under the written Law.


:cool:
 
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tzadik

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"For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. You shall not eat any detestable thing."


I wonder what God considers as detestable...
 
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dollarsbill

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"For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. You shall not eat any detestable thing."


I wonder what God considers as detestable...
1 Timothy 4:4-5 (NASB)
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
 
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tzadik

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1 Timothy 4:4-5 (NASB)
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

Now do you believe that we need to understand 1 Timothy 4 in the light of what God already wrote for His children to follow?

Or should we take 1 Timothy and try to understand it without any foundation?

If we take the latter route--the sky's the limit. We could say ---EAT this..it's human flesh, but it's ok as long as you receive it with gratitude...
or eat this...it's feces, but it's ok as long as you receive it with gratitude...

See where I'm going with this?
With that sort of exegesis the interpreter is free to choose what he wants to add to the menu.

But God's Word is perfect. His Instructions are everlasting.
So everything that is written in Timothy, MUST agree with what was written before Timothy, if it is to be considered truth.

That is what the Bereans did. They didn't take Paul's word for anything. They didn't just receive what he said "as NT doctrine" and went with it...
no--they first scanned the Scriptures to verify if what he was teaching lined up with what God taught before him...

Is that what we do today?
 
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dollarsbill

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Now do you believe that we need to understand 1 Timothy 4 in the light of what God already wrote for His children to follow?
Of course.
Or should we take 1 Timothy and try to understand it without any foundation?

If we take the latter route--the sky's the limit. We could say ---EAT this..it's human flesh, but it's ok as long as you receive it with gratitude...
or eat this...it's feces, but it's ok as long as you receive it with gratitude...
Everyone would know that is wrong whether they be religious or not, unless they are mentally sick.
See where I'm going with this?
With that sort of exegesis the interpreter is free to choose what he wants to add to the menu.

But God's Word is perfect. His Instructions are everlasting.
So everything that is written in Timothy, MUST agree with what was written before Timothy, if it is to be considered truth.

That is what the Bereans did. They didn't take Paul's word for anything. They didn't just receive what he said "as NT doctrine" and went with it...
no--they first scanned the Scriptures to verify if what he was teaching lined up with what God taught before him...

Is that what we do today?
We take it with the rest of the NT.

Acts 10:12-13 (NASB)
12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13 A voice came to him, "Get up, Peter, kill and eat!"
 
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tzadik

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Of course.

Everyone would know that is wrong whether they be religious or not, unless they are mentally sick.
You can't throw me the "everyone knows it's wrong line".
That doesn't fly here. What I'm showing you is that God had already given His people instruction of what is to be considered food, and what is to be considered detestable.
Anyone can use 1 Timothy 4 to defend their eating of whatever it is they want to eat. Good thing God made food/not food clear before---so that Paul's lesson in 1 Timothy 4 can make sense in the light of what was written before it.

You can't tell me I'm not allowed to eat feces or human flesh or blood because "everyone knows that is wrong". That doesn't work. You need to show me where God says something is wrong. And He does :)

We take it with the rest of the NT.
Once again...it's the same old song. What is written in the NT must agree with what was written before it. If it doesn't, you're not interpreting it correctly. It's that simple.
That's what Messiah did, that's what Paul did, that's what EVERYONE that has written ANYTHING in the Bible do.

"To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn."

Messiah reverberates this in John 5:46-47?
"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
 
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