Can We Clarify the Trinity?

[FreeinChrist]

Right. So, they are three distinct people infused with "God-ness" that is of the exact same quality and fills their whole being.

But they are One in that Essence. One God not three Persons with god-ness.

JM's explanation is good

 

[Dave-W]

But then they'd be separate. I think I'm with JM and his video on this.

the only things that we can say for sure are separate between Father Son and Spirit are their functions as laid out in scripture.

Being "The Word" is on Jesus' list.

 

[Poor Beggar]

But they are One in that Essence. One God not three Persons with god-ness.

JM's explanation is good

Yeah. So the "God" in them, fully infusing them, makes them one God, right?

 

[BobRyan]

It's a complex issue since God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are three different entities that work in unison. Whatever God the Father knows, His Son Christ and His Holy Spirit also knows apart from the day he will come back for us. I was once told that the trinity is more or less like water in Ice, Liquid and Vapor form. Whichever way you look at it, Water is still water and God is still God. Am I making sense??? :/

Difficult to say -- Christ said in Acts 1:7 that the disciples could not know the date of the 2nd coming and in Mark 13:32 and Matt 24:36 even the Son of God and the Angels do not know the date of the 2nd coming. One could argue that Christ did not know it in Mark 13 and Matt 24... but that He did know it in Acts 1.

 

[Poor Beggar]

the only things that we can say for sure are separate between Father Son and Spirit are their functions as laid out in scripture.

Being "The Word" is on Jesus' list.

But a categorical approach is based on an structural assumption that may be the very thing making this Trinity concept so hard to understand. Why can't they help one another with duties if they are of the same Essence?

 

[mikedsjr]

I would agree to the way you stated the "one" God. There is not one shrivel of disharmony between them. If there was even the most minute difference between them all then it is polytheism. There unison is perfect and thus there is one God in three persons. Thus we can say The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God and there is only one God. For the (3) persons to be (3) different God's separate from each other, there would have to be imperfection within the 3 gods, even if minimally existing.

I understand why people use the water analogy. People are striving to give real world examples to make sense of the Trinity. They want to make it simple enough for a child to understand. But there isn't a good example in real world terms without making a statement that falls within one of the heresies.

I realize the term heresy tends to get tossed around like its a way a showstopper, but the term heresy really fits in topics like this. it isn't about stopping the show. Its a term to give notice of contrarian view to historical Christianity defined within the councils.

So you're saying that they are "one" because they work in perfect accord/harmony? That's interesting!

As for the water analogy.....watch JM's video about St. Patrick and try not to pee yourself from laughing.

 

[Poor Beggar]

I would agree to the way you stated the "one" God. There is not one shrivel of disharmony between them. If there was even the most minute difference between them all then it is polytheism. There unison is perfect and thus there is one God in three persons. Thus we can say The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God and there is only one God. For the (3) persons to be (3) different God's separate from each other, there would have to be imperfection within the 3 gods, even if minimally existing.

I understand why people use the water analogy. People are striving to give real world examples to make sense of the Trinity. They want to make it simple enough for a child to understand. But there isn't a good example in real world terms without making a statement that falls within one of the heresies.

I realize the term heresy tends to get tossed around like its a way a showstopper, but the term heresy really fits in topics like this. it isn't about stopping the show. Its a term to give notice of contrarian view to historical Christianity defined within the councils.

I agree about "heresy". When it gets tossed out there it usually means, "You've backed me into a corner by bringing up a really good point that my man-made system doesn't address very well, but as I'm incredibly in love with this "doctrine", I'm going to need you to stop immediately or my ego will have to submit and allow my higher brain to work at creating a new understanding."

 

[BobRyan]

A Brief Definition of the Trinity

by James White

I know that one of the most oft-repeated questions I have dealt with is, "How does one explain, or even understand, the doctrine of the Trinity?"

Indeed, few topics are made such a football by various groups that, normally, claim to be the "only" real religion, and who prey upon Christians as "convert fodder." Be that as it may, when the Christian is faced with a question regarding the Trinity, how might it best be explained?

For me, I know that simplifying the doctrine to its most basic elements has been very important and very useful. When we reduce the discussion to the three clear Biblical teachings that underlie the Trinity, we can move our discussion from the abstract to the concrete Biblical data, and can help those involved in false religions to recognize which of the Biblical teachings it is denying.

We must first remember that very few have a good idea of what the Trinity is in the first place - hence, accuracy in definition will be very important. The doctrine of the Trinity is simply that there is one eternal being of God - indivisible, infinite. This one being of God is shared by three co-equal, co-eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.

It is necessary here to distinguish between the terms "being" and "person." It would be a contradiction, obviously, to say that there are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person. So what is the difference? We clearly recognize the difference between being and person every day. We recognize what something is, yet we also recognize individuals within a classification. For example, we speak of the "being" of man---human being. A rock has "being"---the being of a rock, as does a cat, a dog, etc. Yet, we also know that there are personal attributes as well.

That is, we recognize both "what" and "who" when we talk about a person.
The Bible tells us there are three classifications of personal beings---God, man, and angels. What is personality? The ability to have emotion, will, to express oneself. Rocks cannot speak. Cats cannot think of themselves over against others, and, say, work for the common good of "cat kind." Hence, we are saying that there is one eternal, infinite being of God, shared fully and completely by three persons, Father, Son and Spirit. One what, three who's.

NOTE: We are not saying that the Father is the Son, or the Son the Spirit, or the Spirit the Father. It is very common for people to misunderstand the doctrine as to mean that we are saying Jesus is the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity does not in any way say this!

The three Biblical doctrines that flow directly into the river that is the Trinity are as follows:

1) There is one and only one God, eternal, immutable.
2) There are three eternal Persons described in Scripture - the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. These Persons are never identified with one another - that is, they are carefully differentiated as Persons.
3) The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, are identified as being fully deity---that is, the Bible teaches the Deity of Christ and the Deity of the Holy Spirit.

One could possibly represent this as follows:

The three sides of the triangle represent the three Biblical doctrines, as labeled. When one denies any of these three teachings, the other two sides point to the result. Hence, if one denies that there are Three Persons, one is left with the two sides of Full Equality and One God, resulting in the "Oneness" teaching of the United Pentecostal Church and others. If one denies Fully Equality, one is left with Three Persons and One God, resulting in "subordinationism" as seen in Jehovah's Witnesses, the Way International, etc. (though to be perfectly accurate the Witnesses deny all three of the sides in some way---they deny Full Equality (i.e., Jesus is Michael the Archangel), Three Persons (the Holy Spirit is an impersonal, active "force" like electricity) and One God (they say Jesus is "a god"---a lesser divinity than Yahweh; hence they are in reality not monotheists but henotheists). And, if one denies One God, one is left with polytheism, the belief in many gods, as seen clearly in the Mormon Church, the most polytheistic religion I have encountered.

Hopefully these brief thoughts will be of help to you as you "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

"Subordinationism"???

Christ said that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to Christ in John 16.

And Christ claimed to be subordinate to the Father in John 14.

There is a hierarchy of roles in the Godhead

"Subordinationism??"

they are ontologically equal - but they have agreed to take on roles that show a hierarchy

 

[mikedsjr]

I'm not sure I follow. God the Father is a person and doesn't have form. God the Spirit is a person and doesn't have form. God the Son is a person and has a physical form too. Form has nothing to do with personhood. I'm not a philosopher, so i'm not going to go down the path of what a person is. God has given personhood to us when he made Adam in the image of God. In this image of God we have our personhood. Not animals. We have personhood because God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are persons. Personhood gives us the ability to follow instructions, to submit, and to think. God the Father is the head of the Godhead. He sends the Holy Spirit and the Son. The Son sends the Holy Spirit, but not the Father. The Holy Spirit doesn't send the Father or the Son. And there is perfect harmony within the Godhead.

But to play Devil's Advocate, what if the Holy Spirit displays all the qualities of personhood (thought, feeling, etc.), except for form, which is embodied by Jesus?

 

[Poor Beggar]

God the Father is a person and doesn't have form. God the Spirit is a person and doesn't have form. God the Son is a person and has a physical form too. Form has nothing to do with personhood.

Right. That's what I said.

I'm not a philosopher, so i'm not going to go down the path of what a person is.

You have to. You can't think about things without philosophizing.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not sure I follow. God the Father is a person and doesn't have form.

I have no idea what He does or does not have or how He does what He does. But in Dan 7 God has locality as in a throne and can move from one place to another. I suspect He does that in some "form". All the while being ominpresent. One thing is certain He does not exist in omni-present-form or we would all be seeing His form.

God the Spirit is a person and doesn't have form.

Might be the case - don't know enough about the anatomy of God to say one way or the other. Its above my pay grade.

God the Son is a person and has a physical form too.

I think that is the case since He was bodily resurrected.

Form has nothing to do with personhood. I'm not a philosopher, so i'm not going to go down the path of what a person is. God has given personhood to us when he made Adam in the image of God. In this image of God we have our personhood. Not animals. We have personhood because God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are persons. Personhood gives us the ability to follow instructions, to submit, and to think. God the Father is the head of the Godhead. He sends the Holy Spirit and the Son. The Son sends the Holy Spirit, but not the Father. The Holy Spirit doesn't send the Father or the Son. And there is perfect harmony within the Godhead.

Agreed they have roles, a hierarchy in those roles but all 3 are ontologically God, in terms of what sort of being we are dealing with.

 

[JM]

"Subordinationism"??? Christ said that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to Christ in John 16.

Subordinationism usually refers to the Christ being subordinate to the Father because His eternality is denied.

And Christ claimed to be subordinate to the Father in John 14.

I believe that is in reference to Christ’s covenant obligation to fulfill all righteousness on behalf of His people. That means the Son’s subordination is limited to the Incarnation.

There is a hierarchy of roles in the Godhead

Great question. I’m not sure how to answer but I’ll spend some time reading through my collections of dogmatics to see what the old guys teach concerning the roles of each in the Godhead. I’ll say there is an ontological order in terms of the covenantal relationship of the Divine Persons within the Godhead revealed in scripture. The Father decides to save sinners, The Son offers to die on behalf of His people and is sent by The Father, God the Holy Spirit carries applies the work of redemption to the people The Father gives The Son. We can get into the covenantal aspect of Baptist theology at another point but it will only sidetrack us if we spend too much time on it here.

"Subordinationism??" they are ontologically equal - but they have agreed to take on roles that show a hierarchy

Agreed, but would stress the eternal generation of the Son.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

PS: I believe whole heartly in the Holy Trinity...I even named my daughter Trinity!

 

[Dave-W]

But a categorical approach is based on an structural assumption that may be the very thing making this Trinity concept so hard to understand. Why can't they help one another with duties if they are of the same Essence?

There is that language that is antagonistic to Jews: "same essence." Where do we find that in scripture?

 

[Dave-W]

Might be the case - don't know enough about the anatomy of God to say one way or the other. Its above my pay grade.

It is at least hinted at in many places in scripture. "No one has seen the Father.." "God is spirit..." Both times the Son was speaking, clearly referring to the Father.

 

[JM]

It is at least hinted at in many places in scripture. "No one has seen the Father.." "God is spirit..." Both times the Son was speaking, clearly referring to the Father.

"he that hath seen me hath seen the Father"

 

[JM]

An old creed worth reading.

Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the universal faith.
Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the universal faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.
The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.
Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.
Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.
So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.
But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.
He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.
Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.
He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the universal faith one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

 

[Dave-W]

I agree about "heresy". When it gets tossed out there it usually means, "You've backed me into a corner by bringing up a really good point that my man-made system doesn't address very well, but as I'm incredibly in love with this "doctrine", I'm going to need you to stop immediately or my ego will have to submit and allow my higher brain to work at creating a new understanding."

When I use the term I refer to those false doctrines deemed heretical by ancient church fathers.

 

[Poor Beggar]

There is that language that is antagonistic to Jews: "same essence." Where do we find that in scripture?

Well, Jews are pagans so I'm not too interested in that aspect. It's possible they don't understand the Trinity and are hostile to it. As for where we find it in scripture...I guess we find it in logic. If God is one and there are three Persons, they would have to share something. We're labeling that something as "essence". We could use a different word I suppose, but that one seems to suffice. Also, we ahve to be careful with too much fixation on words. Trinity isn't in the bible, but the concept is.

 

[JM]

Well, Jews are pagans so I'm not too interested in that aspect.

I agree. The ethnic Israelites reject the Messiah and cling to the weak and beggarly elements of the Mosaic covenant of works which, we are told in Gal. 3, was only to point us to Christ. Since they failed to see the purpose of that covenant they are not believers or followers of God. At all.

Yours in the Lord,


jm

 

[Goodbook]

Expalining to atheists.

God our heavenly Father creator of the universe, gave us his only begotten son Jesus and anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. This is life in the spirit.

So there are three aspects to God...Father, Son and Holy spirit (or some translations, Holy Ghost). They make up the godhead or elohim as it were, and are in rleationship with each other. They are also ONE in that they are all divine and the same, like a family is one entity.