Can we agree on what's required to be "saved"?

Neogaia777

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I was wondering if we could come into agreement on what's required to be "saved"?

Also what about "after" one is saved, are there more requirements to maintain salvation (can we lose it?), are we required to behave or do or be a certain way "after" we say that we are saved, or not...?

Some would say that if our salvation is/was "true" and "real", that it WILL produce certain changes in us, but what exactly are these changes? A change of heart, leading to positive personality (behavioral) changes, or what?

Ideas? Comments? Opinions? Suggestions?

God Bless!
 

Neogaia777

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I think that we all agree that we are saved through Jesus Christ. Anything beyond that gets into various theologies and soteriologies. But, isn't Christ enough? Everything else is just interpretation and details.

What do you mean by "saved through Jesus Christ" though? (details please of what you mean by "saved through Jesus Christ"), by Believing? Is faith required? Must you have and be showing Love if you are truly saved. Will there be noticeable "changes" happen in you if you are truly, really "saved through/by Jesus Christ" If so, what are these changes?

God Bless!
 
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BryanW92

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What do you mean by "saved through Jesus Christ" though? (details please of what you mean by "saved through Jesus Christ"), by Believing? Is faith required? Must you have and be showing Love if you are truly saved. Will there be noticeable "changes" happen in you if you are truly, really "saved through/by Jesus Christ" If so, what are these changes?

God Bless!

I thought you wanted to agree? Anything beyond "through Christ" leads to discussions of theology and soteriology. My theology is Reformed. My details for what "through Christ" means are different than someone else's.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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remember that every word of Yhvh is true. keep this in mind.

remember that a lot of 'christians' who think they are saved find out otherwise on Judgment Day, apparently, from Yahushua's Own Word.

remember that a lot of people who don't remember when they took care of Yahushua find out on Judgment Day that they did, and they are rewarded for doing so.

remember that "unless one becomes as a little (new born) child, no one can see the kingdom of heaven", in Yahushua's Own Word.

remember that a lot of scholars and leaders and such don't even get to see the kingdom of heaven, in Yahushua's Own Word.

remember that "whoever has the Son, has Life; whoever has not the Son, has not Life".

this is not complicated. this is all from Yahushua's Own Word (and/or ABBA's) - Scripture, Torah, Tanahk. simple statements. truth. unchanging.

remember that unless a man is granted it from Yhvh in heaven, he cannot receive / grasp/ understand/ know/ anything. (quote paraphrased from John the Immerser in Yhvh's Scripture.

and
there are many more signs and promises and wonders and truth from Yhvh's Scripture about the ekklesia who are born again, immersed in Yahushua's Name, abiding in Him and His Word is abiding in them.

all of the signs and promises, all of Yhvh's Word, is true. all together. and not at all contradictory to each other or any part.

i.e. it is obvious , then, that most of the world has no idea, no life, no power of Yhvh to live free from sin and from selfishness and from the power of the prince of this world/the prince of darkness/ the prince of the power of the air. most of the world can't even comprehend what Yhvh's Kingdom is like, nor how to get there, nor how to partake of it at all.

the GOOD NEWS, is that they can, if they SEEK YHVH the Creator. Himself.
because that is what Yhvh the Creator Promised.

but if they seek through man's methods, they have already failed from before the start. they cannot succeed. this is according to Yahushua's Word/ Scripture.

so, obviously, a wide diversity of people who trust in man's methods, will not and cannot agree on 'salvation' - worse still they all want people to 'come to them' and they don't realize that they're not directing them to Yahushua and the Father.

Yhvh is Perfect, and knows all of this. He is prepared for all of this. He is ready.

Yhvh is the only One who can save anyone. and He delights to. His Way, by faith through grace in Yahushua.

everyone who is saved in and through and by Yahushua, is one with Him and in Him and with others who are saved. this is 'automatic' without any effort or strength or ability even to make it happen on their part. it is ABBA'S DOING, all according to ABBA'S Salvation in Yahushua as stated all through His Word, Scripture, Torah.

it is rare. ekklesia is rare (or at least 'few') as Yhvh's Word says. end being in ekklesia comes with immediately righteousness, peace and joy, along with eternal life, a gift of Yhvh in Yahushua.

man cannot replicate this. nor can hasatan. it cannot be 'done', unless Yhvh does it. that's the 'secret'. Yhvh does it. in total agreement with all of His Word. Yhvh never contradicts Himself. Yhvh never goes back on His Word.
 
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Bobinator

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There are a few scriptures to consider-

In John 3:5, Jesus says a man must be born of water and of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 5:26 says, "that he might sanctify and cleanse it by the washing of water by the Word."

These scriptures lead me to believe that one must hear the gospel, believe, repent and be baptized, not only the physical act of baptism, but also receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Another scripture to consider is Matthew 25, where Jesus shares a parable about the servants with the talents. The one that was given 1 talent, but hid it under his bed and never used it was cast away into outer darkness.

So, it is clear that a Christian needs to have some measure of Christian walk and not fall back into the world and abandon the faith.

Matthew 13 also speaks of seeds that were sown. Most were either lost or destroyed, while some brought forth fruit.

One measure to determine whether a person was born again in the spirit is the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit. This is found in Mark 16:16-17-"These signs shall follow them that believe..."

It's hard to say exactly who makes it to heaven or not, but I think we can have a general idea.
 
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trulyconverted

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I was wondering if we could come into agreement on what's required to be "saved"?

When do we become saved?... The instant The Holy Spirit came into our heart to dwell there.


Also what about "after" one is saved, are there more requirements to maintain salvation (can we lose it?), are we required to behave or do or be a certain way "after" we say that we are saved, or not...?

After salvation, we continue to live our lives but this time with a different heart (new heart), a new spirit, and with The Holy Spirit indwelling in the new heart that we now have.

Can we lose it?... That would mean God taking the new heart of flesh out again and put the heart of stone back in again (I don't think so), He would also need to take out the new spirit He has given you and put the old spirit back in?... (i don't think so). And He will also have to leave His house (which is our heart) - but He is the pledge, the guarantee in our hearts - (therefore I don't think so).

I don't think we need to 'behave' or 'become' anything, for I think we live out the new Life within us - in a genuine way.


Some would say that if our salvation is/was "true" and "real", that it WILL produce certain changes in us, but what exactly are these changes? A change of heart, leading to positive personality (behavioral) changes, or what?

A new heart of flesh, a new spirit, and The Holy Spirit now living in us. Just think what these new occurences mean... You become a new person in reality. It's a new way of living, thinking, viewing things. New ways in dealing with others. New feelings of love. But these things are not produced by us. It's all pouring from the Lord's life within - flowing out from within.

Therefore, we have become new creations... with a new heart, new spirit, and we now have The Holy Spirit actually making our heart His home. And the moment it happens, that believer will know when it does. It's hard to miss it.
 
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I was wondering if we could come into agreement on what's required to be "saved"?
What is salvation?
Saved means delivered. Old testament salvation was physical, new testament is deliverance from sin.
What is sin?
it is error, falling short of the glory of God, God's nature. (Romans 3:23)
Sin is not certain "bad" things", it is anyone who relies on "the flesh".
To have new testament salvation you must receive and live by walk in the power and wisdom of .. the Holy Spirit.

"he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" (Titus 3:5-6).

That shedding on began in Acts 2v4, (not before!) see also v33, John 7:39, Acts 10:44-48.
And continues the same today.


Also what about "after" one is saved, are there more requirements to maintain salvation (can we lose it?), are we required to behave or do or be a certain way "after" we say that we are saved, or not...?
The Spirit remains in you until you die, but you will only reap his benefits and enter into the Kingdom of God after if you choose to live by Him.

You now have the opportunity to follow God's heart and thereby have a relationship with him.
Sadly, some having received the Spirit, choose to follow their own, or someone else's lead. What you choose is what you love, Heaven is for those that love God above all else.

Practically, you develop that relationship by using what he provides ..
Commune with God daily to see things his way and overcome "sin, pray in the Spirit and with the understanding, know and apply his word, be an active member of a church like the one he set up.
1 Corinthians 14 details what God wants in meetings.
 
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phydaux

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I haven't read the thread, but we are saved by:


Sola Gratia
Sola Fide
Solo Christo

That is to say we are saved by "grace alone" through "faith alone" in "Christ alone."

Both the grace AND the faith are gifts. Anything else is a works gospel.
 
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phydaux

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I was wondering if we could come into agreement on what's required to be "saved"?

Also what about "after" one is saved, are there more requirements to maintain salvation (can we lose it?), are we required to behave or do or be a certain way "after" we say that we are saved, or not...?

Some would say that if our salvation is/was "true" and "real", that it WILL produce certain changes in us, but what exactly are these changes? A change of heart, leading to positive personality (behavioral) changes, or what?

Ideas? Comments? Opinions? Suggestions?

God Bless!

"I was wondering if we could come into agreement on what's required to be "saved"?"

Based on 2000 years of church history, then no we can not come into agreement.
 
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phydaux

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"Some would say that if our salvation is/was "true" and "real", that it WILL produce certain changes in us, but what exactly are these changes? A change of heart, leading to positive personality (behavioral) changes, or what?"

The fruit of the Spirit is love.

A saving faith will draw us closer to Jesus and conform us to His image. The nature of Jesus will manifest through us, and we will produce His fruit.
 
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OldStudent

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You ask a question which has built libraries. It is profound enough to engage us into eternity. Yet god’s grace has made it simple enough to be within the reach of anyone willing to receive it.

Can we agree “on what’s required to be ‘”saved?”’ That is a desirable state of affairs but not likely this side of the Second Coming. You have probably seen what happens when the relationship of obedience to the law and grace comes under discussion.

I would suggest a fundamental paradigm shift in approach to the whole matter. I suggest we endeavor to walk away from the “requirements” to be saved perspective. The reason we exist, the purpose of our existence is to be part of a web of relationships. Those relationships are to be modeled after the nature of God – God is love. Under the paradigm of love we don’t seek to meet “requirements,” we seek opportunities to convey our love, honor, respect, desire to bring delight to the object(s) of our love. It is where the balance of “I want…” clashes with what is most helpful to the other that has to adjusted under the work of salvation. It turns out that successful, sustainable relationships operate within the bounds identified in the Ten Commandments and further refined for our understanding in the expanded set of regulations.

The unfortunate aspect of this is that in our broken fallen nature the focus of our love goes the wrong way. To get it right requires a change so massive that Jesus calls it being “born again” or perhaps better expressed as “born from above.” It is an amazing thing to be created, born the first time. That happens without our choice. But to be born again, to become a new creation where my perverse will can be transformed to resemble His loving nature, to “take out the trash” yet preserve my personality, my living space is an even greater feat. The evidence of His successful work in us is by definition seen in transformation of our attitudes and behaviors.

Once started down the path of salvation is it possible to lose it? At what point does God become such a tyrant that we cannot turn away from Him if we choose? Jesus allows for that in the parable of the four soils (Matt 13).
 
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Bobinator

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When do we become saved?... The instant The Holy Spirit came into our heart to dwell there.




After salvation, we continue to live our lives but this time with a different heart (new heart), a new spirit, and with The Holy Spirit indwelling in the new heart that we now have.

Can we lose it?... That would mean God taking the new heart of flesh out again and put the heart of stone back in again (I don't think so), He would also need to take out the new spirit He has given you and put the old spirit back in?... (i don't think so). And He will also have to leave His house (which is our heart) - but He is the pledge, the guarantee in our hearts - (therefore I don't think so).

I don't think we need to 'behave' or 'become' anything, for I think we live out the new Life within us - in a genuine way.




A new heart of flesh, a new spirit, and The Holy Spirit now living in us. Just think what these new occurences mean... You become a new person in reality. It's a new way of living, thinking, viewing things. New ways in dealing with others. New feelings of love. But these things are not produced by us. It's all pouring from the Lord's life within - flowing out from within.

Therefore, we have become new creations... with a new heart, new spirit, and we now have The Holy Spirit actually making our heart His home. And the moment it happens, that believer will know when it does. It's hard to miss it.

If we consider the parable of the talents, then we can presume that all of the recipients were Christians who received of the Holy Spirit. If the one was cast into outer darkness for not nurturing their impartation, or symbolically- their walk with the Lord, and hid away their faith and belief in Jesus Christ and lived as the heathen do.

In addition, we also have Matthew 7, which says,
[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Also, 2Thess.2:3- “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

This is the part in Revelations 12:4 where the Dragon’s tail draws down a third of the stars from Heaven. The stars are the saints who are seated with Christ in heavenly places who were deceived by the devil during these last days.

[Ephesians 2:6- “And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”]

It is clear then, that one can lose their salvation.
 
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Bobinator

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"Some would say that if our salvation is/was "true" and "real", that it WILL produce certain changes in us, but what exactly are these changes? A change of heart, leading to positive personality (behavioral) changes, or what?"

The fruit of the Spirit is love.

A saving faith will draw us closer to Jesus and conform us to His image. The nature of Jesus will manifest through us, and we will produce His fruit.

True salvation must first come with repentance. This is what John the Baptist taught us.

This is why Jesus says in Mark 10:15- “Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.”

The greater the repentance, the greater your experience will be in manifesting changes in your heart and your baptism in the Holy Spirit.

When you are born again of the Spirit, God gives you 3 things: 1) a conscience, 2) the ability to commune with God spirit to Spirit, and 3) intuition.

You will also be able to speak in tongues, pray for the sick and cast out devils in the name of Jesus, etc. It is entirely up to us to use these gifts, and nurture them to help us grow up in the spirit.

Hebrews 5:14- “But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”
 
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trulyconverted

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It is clear then, that one can lose their salvation.

To the OP... That is why each and everyone of us need to personally read the bible for God bestows us wisdom according to His mercy and grace at His appointed time.

Bobinator as quoted above understands it that way. But my understanding is different. To the OP, as you read the bible, God is the only one who can enlighten your mind and will let you see the wisdom He wants to impart to you. I don't understand everything in one reading. Its like I learn things little by so little each time.

God bless.
 
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OldStudent

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To the OP, as you read the bible, God is the only one who can enlighten your mind and will let you see the wisdom He wants to impart to you. I don't understand everything in one reading. Its like I learn things little by so little each time.

God bless.

I hope you don't mind me editing your post for a point of focus.

I am in full agreement that "God is the only one who can enlighten your mind..." I would like to suggest that God also intends that we bring His word into our fellowship. As we discuss our discoveries and experiences interesting things happen. In fact, in discussing our disagreements we can rather quickly correct or refine our understanding in ways that won't happen in solo study.

One reason I peruse these forums is for ideas gleaned both from others and as I formulate responses. Both learning rate and retention rise sharply. Besides - it broadens our field of relationships.
 
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jbearnolimits

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"I was wondering if we could come into agreement on what's required to be "saved"?"

Based on 2000 years of church history, then no we can not come into agreement.

Well, considering this question divides the true church from the false “believers” (since only the saved are the true church) I think we have always been in agreement. If the “we” you speak of is actual Christians.

There is only one way to God the Father. That is Jesus. This is such a simple statement but there are few that understand it because few know Jesus. If you want to know Jesus you are going to have to read the Bible.

So…to answer the question of the opening post, yes, “we” can and do agree. But there will always be those who claim to be part of the “we” that are not. And they make a show in front of everyone bringing doubt against the word of God.

I am going to give you all some scriptures and after each one I am going to paraphrase it. I will only use the NT scriptures since there are so many. I may leave some out, but I wanted to at least give you all what God says through the scriptures.

Matthew 19:25-26

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Who can be saved? You can not save yourself. God must save you.

Luke 13:23-27

23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

There will be many who try to be saved, but few who will be. Just because you are in the church eating, drinking, and fellowshipping with Christians and just because you know the Bible it doesn’t mean you will be saved. You are still lost in sin.

John 5:38-40

38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life

God has spoken through His messengers. He had men write the message down in what we call scripture. If you believe the scriptures you should come to Jesus who will give you life. Because the scriptures tell you how to come to Him.

2 Timothy 3:15-16

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The scriptures were given by God and gives the way to be saved through going to Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Because God loves you He offers the gift of salvation. Your job is to accept it by using faith.

James 2:17-23

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Faith that does not produce works is not faith. It is useless belief. Faith put into action is real faith. By the faith put into action of Abraham he was called the Friend of God.

Acts 16:30-31

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

To be saved you must believe Jesus.

Acts 2:37-38

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The actions that must come from your belief are repentance and baptism.

1 Peter 3:21

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

It isn’t the act of being submersed in water that saves, but it is the confession of faith that is evident by repentance. Baptism is only a way of making that public confession.

Acts 26:20

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

We are to repent, which means we need to turn to God. Again, true repentance and faith is not just words or thought, it comes with action. We should act as ones that have turned to God.

Romans 8:24

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

We hope to be saved in the end. We have to wait to receive that salvation. We have faith which produces action because we hope for salvation through faith in Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:1-2

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

If we continue in the gospel we will be saved. If we do not then our first belief is in vain since we did not continue.

Romans 11:21-23

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Again, if you do not continue with God you will be cut off. But even if that happens there is still hope to be grafted in again if we return to God.

So this is what I take from the scriptures on this subject:

We are saved when we hear the gospel and believe it enough to turn to Jesus and away from sin. We must then continue walking with Jesus and away from sin. If we do not continue to do so we will be cut off and our belief will have been in vain.

It is not sin that cuts us off. It is our refusal to continue in what we first did. As Jesus said in the book of Revelation, “Repent and do your first works over.”

What were the first works? They were believing the word of God, turning to God and away from the sin, and continuing to do so.
 
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kidwboro

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Also what about "after" one is saved, are there more requirements to maintain salvation (can we lose it?), are we required to behave or do or be a certain way "after" we say that we are saved, or not...?

Look at the following verse:
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Romans 6:23)

Herein are two infinite extremes mentioned:
1.) Death (or eternal punishment)
2.) Eternal life

Meditating on the above verse, taking it seriously, and trying to contemplate the INFINITE degree of each extreme, will produce fruit, and prove a person's salvation.
 
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ron4shua

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Greetings Saints , this may seem a little over simplified but sometimes simple is what it is . Somewhat like , not seeing the forest , because of all the trees . A wise man told me , the proof of the pudding is in it's taste & the best way to catch fish is the way that is proven to catch fish . With this said , let's start with ," what was delivered to the Saints in the beginning ".

Proof of the pudding ; Act 2:40 And with many other words he earnestly witnessed and urged them, saying, “Be saved from this crooked generation.”1 Footnote: 1Jer. 51:6, Phil. 2:15, Rev. 18:4.
Act 2:41 Then those, indeed, who gladly received his word, were immersed. And on that day about three thousand beings were added to them.
(ISR) That's a sizeable bowl of pudding .

How did this come to fruition , " about three thousand beings " ?

He commanded them not to leave Yerushalayim, but to wait for the Promise of the Father,1 “which you have heard from Me – Footnote: 1Lk. 24:49, John 14:16 & 26.
Act 1:5 because Yoḥanan truly immersed in water, but you shall be immersed in the Set-apart Spirit not many days from now.”

Act 2:14 But Kĕpha, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice and said to them, “Men of Yehuḏah and all those dwelling in Yerushalayim, let this be known to you, and listen closely to my words.
Act 2:15 “For these men are not drunk, as you imagine, since it is only the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 “But this is what was spoken by the prophet Yo’ĕl:

Act 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Yisra’ĕl know for certain that Elohim has made this יהושע, whom you impaled, both Master and Messiah.”
Act 2:37 And having heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Kĕpha and the rest of the emissaries, “Men, brothers, what shall we do?”
Act 2:38 And Kĕpha said to them, “Repent, and let each one of you be immersed in the Name of יהושע Messiah for the forgiveness of sins.1 And you shall receive the gift of the Set-apart Spirit. Footnote: 1See 2:40, 3:19, 3:26.
Act 2:39 “For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are far off, as many as יהוה our Elohim shall call.”

Did this way of fishing work ? You can wager your life on that . A few days later .

Act 4:3 And they arrested them, and put them in jail until the next day, for it was already evening.
Act 4:4 But many of those who had heard the word believed, and the number of the men became about five thousand.

More pudding , EIGHT THOUSAND in a very short time .

By what authority are You doing these? And who gave You this authority?”
Mat 21:24 And יהושע answering, said to them, “I shall ask you one question too, which if you answer Me, I also shall say to you by what authority I do these:
Mat 21:25 “The immersion of Yoḥanan, where did it come from? From heaven or from men?” So they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He shall say to us, ‘Then why did you not believe him?’
Mat 21:26 “But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the crowd, for all hold Yoḥanan as a prophet.”
Mat 21:27 And they answered יהושע and said, “We do not know.” And He said to them, “Neither do I say to you by what authority I do these.

Does Matthew 21 sound alot like some hard-hearted people you have heard about today ?

Act 10:44 While Kĕpha was still speaking these words, the Set-apart Spirit fell upon all those hearing the word.
Act 10:45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Kĕpha, because the gift of the Set-apart Spirit had been poured out on the gentiles also,
Act 10:46 for they were hearing them speaking with tongues and extolling Elohim. Then Kĕpha answered,
Act 10:47 “Is anyone able to forbid water, that these should not be immersed who have received the Set-apart Spirit – even as also we?”
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be immersed in the Name of יהושע Messiah. Then they asked him to remain a few days.

Just a little more pudding , using a proven way to catch fish . HalleluYAH !
 
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