Can prayer move mountains?

[RaiseTheDead]

So the context which I am taking these quotes out of is the "entire message of the Bible."? I can use virtually same tactic to discredit you by simply posting passages that seem to contradict yours

You already have, and you have failed to be coherent. (Notice the emphasized word) Your argument from ignorance really isn't very convincing.

This is not a practical or efficient strategy when scrutinizing a book you yourself admit is not entirely literal. There are several passages/messages in the Bible concerning prayer and three possible ways each relates to the others- affirms, elaborates/adds/clarifies, or contradicts. Each of the passages in the list I posted clearly affirms the other. I did not include ALL of the passages concerning prayer, but I did augment my shorthand list to accommodate James 4:3. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that James 4:3 falls into the second category (elaborates/adds/clarifies) when on the surface it appears to contradict passages like Mark 11:24 "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

Salvation is not practical nor efficient.

My aim is to create a comprehensive list of stipulations.

Then you must account for James, and that alone blows your false ideas clear out of the water. No problems anymore (Scripture is like that)

My point is that if we cannot accept any passages concerning prayer to contradict each other, then we must accept that they somehow work in harmony with each other.

Of course. So then when Jesus says ask "any thing," we are to understand that is already qualified as anything within the will of God. Simple!

And what we are to come away with is the fact that God gave man dominion, meaning that if anything is going to happen in the world, WE are going to do it. Much of the Bible is written primarily to illustrate this underlying principle for us, and to demonstrate that this is how the power of God works. For example Moses says God parted the Red Sea, but God says Moses did it.

What we then have is this:

1.Have faith. It doesn't matter how much, for even someone with the faith of a mustard seed will have their prayers answered.

You have failed to take time into account. Eventually this is true, but you don't gather mustard from am initial sprout, nor even from a sapling. there is a growth process that takes place first!

How is the child on her deathbed in violation of these rules? What if her parents prayed for her recovery, or a stranger for that matter?

1. You do not portray a complete understanding of what's involved
2. You attempt to reduce prayer to a magic show, totally alienating God in the process. There are Biblical examples of this sort of thing, which should suffice to let you know this is a BAD idea!

…..and you patronize ME for quote mining. You completely negate my point.

Try not to use words you don't understand; there is no patronization there. And yes, I "completely negated your point;" i.e. it was a thorough and successful rebuttal.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

On the science issue: Why does God hide from scientifically literate modern people, and why didn't he hide from scientifically illiterate people?

This is blatantly incorrect, and also prejudiced.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

Every time the nation starts rattling its saber with talk of war, the Holy Spirit tells some people that the war is righteous and tells other people that the war is unrighteous.

You're just being silly

It's not possible that all of them are hearing the Holy Spirit, but it's possible none of them are. Now we get into arrogance. The only way to salvage the situation is, "I'm hearing the holy spirit; the people who heard the opposite answer are not hearing the holy spirit." This translates roughly into: "I am so important that the creator of the universe really talks to me on this issue while others only think he's talking to them on this issue."

Now we can add ignorance to your silliness. (The two don't always go together)

 

[beastmaster]

Try not to use words you don't understand; there is no patronization there. And yes, I "completely negated your point;" i.e. it was a thorough and successful rebuttal.

You do realize that words in the English language can have different connotations right?

"Patronize(verb)- to behave in an offensively condescending manner toward: a professor who patronizes his students."
I.e. Your criticism of my "pathetic straw-man" and unsubstantiated accusations of quote mining.

"Negate(verb)- to deny the existence, evidence, or truth of."
I.e. The fact that you quote mined the first sentence of my paragraph while ignoring the rest and my point.


As to the rest: That is a SERIOUS display of mental gymnastics. Bald assertions feel good, and are so convenient, now I see why you like them so much

 

[RaiseTheDead]

You're overlooking the facts that you did in fact concoct a pathetic strawman, failed to take a good bit into consideration - and therefore many of your points don't deserve response.

 

[beastmaster]

You're overlooking the facts that you did in fact concoct a pathetic strawman, failed to take a good bit into consideration - and therefore many of your points don't deserve response.

This has gone from frustrating to ludicrous. It has become clear that you are either not interested or incapable of having any sort of progressive conversation about biblical prayer. I've stated my opinions/contententions supported by the reasoning/evidence behind them, while you offer nothing but unsupported assertions in return. If you're engaged in a logical debate, assertions without reasoning will get you nowhere fast. When trying to prove something you'll have to show evidence and/or make connections in reasoning. These all must have support behind them. Your position statement must be held up, but the arguments holding it up must be solid as well. Bald assertion is a logical fallacy because just saying something doesn't make it so. If it did, I'd be God. And I'm not.

Even ten year old kids can assert "Your wrong, that’s silly, that's ignorant, your taking that out context, your distorting the message, that’s foolish, etc," but unless your willing to back those assertions up with explanations, reasoning, and evidence then they should be kept in the sandbox. Your arguments are tantamount to saying "I'm right because your wrong."- it's the rhetorical equivalent to throwing a pie in someones face and running away. You then go on to pat yourself in the back while having offered no actual counter-arguments. Now THAT’S silly. If you think my reasoning is flawed you have to demonstrate WHY.

Take this gem for example:

Then you must account for James, and that alone blows your false ideas clear out of the water. No problems anymore (Scripture is like that)"

I'll make this as clear as possible: If you say something is false you have demonstrate WHY you think it's false. It would be a good place to start by re-stating what my "false ideas" are and why you think that James 4:3 "blows them out of the water." It's called logic- you should check it out sometime. This is also proof that you didn't even bother to read my post (#38). I even highlighted the section to make clear that I DID account for James 4:3. So far you've offered nothing to suggest that James 4:3 invalidates my argument.

Let's recap your contributions to this conversation:

Msg 24: You asserted the bible contradicts what I've written, but you did not explain WHY. You shamelessly suggest that any conclusion can be drawn from your empty assertion.
Msg 25: You've employed the logical fallacy of special pleading (the arbitrary introduction of new elements into an argument in order to fix them so that they appear valid) by introducing the element of pride.
Msg 33: You accused me of distorting the message of the bible and concocting a straw-man, but you did not demonstrate why/how.
-
Msg 36: Again, you accuse me of cherry-picking verses to concoct a straw-man argument, but do not offer any reasoning to support this accusation. Next, you introduce James 4:3 and assert that it invalidates my point, but you fail to demonstrate why. You then provide a vague reference to the entire epistles of James and suggest that something in it might invalidate my point. What exactly is that? You've provided no actual theological analysis of how James 4:3 relates to the other quotes I provided and why those quotes shouldn't be taken as they are written.

Msg 41: This is the closest you've come to making a substantial counter-argument- and it's still far from one. I am willing to systematically address your points if you first go back and consider the hard points I've made without dodging them or moving the goal post.

42, 43, 45: More empty assertions becoming more thoughtless as they go along…. http://www.durangobill.com/CreationismPics/CreationismCantHearYou.jpg

More information about your favorite fallacy:
Ipse dixit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Back up what you say, or don't say anything at all.
It's better to be thought a fool than to be known one

 

[RaiseTheDead]

This has gone from frustrating to ludicrous. It has become clear that you are either not interested or incapable of having any sort of progressive conversation about biblical prayer.

sorry but I have pointed out MUCH you have failed to take into account, respond to, and / or comprehend. Besides, if you really wanted to know any of this, you would be putting it into practice.

Even ten year old kids can assert "Your wrong, that’s silly, that's ignorant, your taking that out context, your distorting the message, that’s foolish, etc," but unless your willing to back those assertions up with explanations, reasoning, and evidence then they should be kept in the sandbox.

Your point is thoroughly and utterly refuted by the mere existence of apophatic theology. It is the way God communicates to us, primarily.

You are not above that. I cannot change God to make you above that, or somehow immune; sorry. Your only option is to humble yourself.

If you think my reasoning is flawed you have to demonstrate WHY.

No I don't. I can point it out, and you can re-evaluate. It's the only way you're going to get anywhere, anyway.

This is also proof that you didn't even bother to read my post (#38). I even highlighted the section to make clear that I DID account for James 4:3. So far you've offered nothing to suggest that James 4:3 invalidates my argument.

Sorry but you have not, because you continue with your distorted statements re: prayer, that do not take this into account. I cannot crawl inside your head to see where the disconnect is, nor has God shown me. Apparently He wants you to search that out. And - He has plenty of time to wait while you throw your little tantrum.

Back up what you say, or don't say anything at all.

This is known as controlling behavior. Good luck with that ...

 

[dysert]

I'm afraid I don't have the time to individually answer each reply, but here is my take on prayer as presented in the New Testament: The new testament is relatively clear in regards to the power of prayer. According to scripture, the stipulations one must fulfill for having their prayers answered are these:

1.Have faith. It doesn't matter how much, for even someone with the faith of a mustard seed will have their prayers answered.
2.Don't doubt in your faith.
3.Believe in Jesus and the works that he does.
4.Believe that you will receive what you pray for.
5.If you really want your prayer answered, get a group of people to all pray for the same thing.
6.If your prayer is not answered it.s your fault because you didn't have enough faith.

The Bible says that if you adhere to these rules then this is what God will do for you:
1.He will answer your prayers, no matter what you ask for.
2.Nothing will be impossible for you if you pray about it.

Yet reality seems to contradict this.

I can empathize with what you're saying.

I hope nobody minds my jumping into this at this late stage of the thread, but after reading through every post I've gotta say I'm disappointed. What started out as an honest inquiry with an obvious knowledge of what Scripture seems to be saying has turned into a hostile exchange. That's a shame.

Beastmaster, I've had the exact same thoughts as you have. And I too have been a devout Christian for over 20 years. There came a point, perhaps just last year, where I knew I had to make a decision. "Fish or cut bait" as they say. I have studied and taught the Bible for most of my life, yet this thing about prayer was really bothering me. I know from my studies that the Bible is inerrant, yet I could not reconcile the obvious teaching of prayer (which you nicely listed so succinctly) with reality, and this caused a crisis of faith for me.

To be honest, I'm still in recovery mode from this crisis, but to make a long story short I'll come to the point. I'm still a devout Christian, I still believe the Bible to be inerrant, and I still don't "get" the apparent contradiction between what the Bible teaches and what my experience has been. The decision I had to make last year was whether to abandon the faith or accept something that I don't understand. Obviously, I came down on the side of accepting something that I don't understand. I still believe in inerrancy, but I've concluded that my *understanding* of what the Bible teaches about prayer must be wrong.

I now cling to John 20:29 --> "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Belief for me has been a *decision*. I have *chosen* to believe something I don't understand because I think in the long run it will prove to be the better choice. I sincerely hope that you'll make that same decision for yourself.

 

[DennisTate]

According to Matthew 21,21 and other verses prayer can indeed move mountains.

"If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done."

Has this ever happened? If a mountain ever fell into the sea it would cause such an enormous tsunami that history would record it. Any number of Christians have faith, Christians who don’t know about the tsunami might well pray in faith for a mountain to move but history does not record a mountain moving. This verse of the Bible can’t be literally true.

Mountains are often symbolic of nations.

I firmly do believe that a group of people praying fervently can alter the course of history and even prevent a war or series of wars!


Future - near-death experiences

During Ned Dougherty's NDE, a Lady of Light told him how to change the world to prevent these catastrophic visions of the future from happening:

I was told that the world could be saved, not by its leaders, but by prayer groups throughout the world. I was told that the prayers of a group of twenty could save a nation from war. I was told that the fate of mankind rested on our ability, individually and collectively, to change the direction of mankind in accordance with God's plan ... Depending on mankind's response to God, these events may be altered, postponed, or cancelled. (Ned Dougherty)

 

[DennisTate]

My wife introduced me to a film series Transformation i and II.

She is from Quito, Ecuador and knows quite a bit about how a group of people in the city of Cali, Colombia, while it was still termed the murder capitol of the world, began to get together to pray for their city.

They even prayed over gallons of olive oil in the name of Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua and dumped the olive oil on their city from a helicopter that they rented.....Cali, Colombia went through a massive transformation and the incidence of murder in their city decreased and decreased and astonishing numbers of people gave their lives over to God for guidance!!!!

The nation of Uganda and the nation of Guatamela also went through amazing Transformations as several people from a couple of different denominations got together and prayed in spite of their doctrinal differences!

 

[beastmaster]

No I don't. I can point it out, and you can re-evaluate. It's the only way you're going to get anywhere, anyway.



This is known as controlling behavior. Good luck with that ...

I'm done with this.

You're basically doing this to logic and common sense:
http://antiterra.blogsport.eu/files/2009/10/9388_f3df.gif

 

[beastmaster]

I can empathize with what you're saying.

I hope nobody minds my jumping into this at this late stage of the thread, but after reading through every post I've gotta say I'm disappointed. What started out as an honest inquiry with an obvious knowledge of what Scripture seems to be saying has turned into a hostile exchange. That's a shame.

Beastmaster, I've had the exact same thoughts as you have. And I too have been a devout Christian for over 20 years. There came a point, perhaps just last year, where I knew I had to make a decision. "Fish or cut bait" as they say. I have studied and taught the Bible for most of my life, yet this thing about prayer was really bothering me. I know from my studies that the Bible is inerrant, yet I could not reconcile the obvious teaching of prayer (which you nicely listed so succinctly) with reality, and this caused a crisis of faith for me.

To be honest, I'm still in recovery mode from this crisis, but to make a long story short I'll come to the point. I'm still a devout Christian, I still believe the Bible to be inerrant, and I still don't "get" the apparent contradiction between what the Bible teaches and what my experience has been. The decision I had to make last year was whether to abandon the faith or accept something that I don't understand. Obviously, I came down on the side of accepting something that I don't understand. I still believe in inerrancy, but I've concluded that my *understanding* of what the Bible teaches about prayer must be wrong.

I now cling to John 20:29 --> "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Belief for me has been a *decision*. I have *chosen* to believe something I don't understand because I think in the long run it will prove to be the better choice. I sincerely hope that you'll make that same decision for yourself.

That's probably the most honest answer concerning faith I've read on CF so far.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

Sorry boss, I've aced logic in every testable way, and pioneered some things with very uncommon sense. You can either open your mind, or not; your call. You also might edit out your link, seeing as it's against forum rules to link allusions to profanity

 

[EthanEte]

I'm just curious, where does the bible command we should flame non-believers when they ask honest questions?