Can prayer move mountains?

[beastmaster]

I'm afraid I don't have the time to individually answer each reply, but here is my take on prayer as presented in the New Testament: The new testament is relatively clear in regards to the power of prayer. According to scripture, the stipulations one must fulfill for having their prayers answered are these:

1.Have faith. It doesn't matter how much, for even someone with the faith of a mustard seed will have their prayers answered.
2.Don't doubt in your faith.
3.Believe in Jesus and the works that he does.
4.Believe that you will receive what you pray for.
5.If you really want your prayer answered, get a group of people to all pray for the same thing.
6.If your prayer is not answered it.s your fault because you didn't have enough faith.

The Bible says that if you adhere to these rules then this is what God will do for you:
1.He will answer your prayers, no matter what you ask for.
2.Nothing will be impossible for you if you pray about it.

Yet reality seems to contradict this.

 

[Dragons87]

I'm afraid I don't have the time to individually answer each reply, but here is my take on prayer as presented in the New Testament: The new testament is relatively clear in regards to the power of prayer. According to scripture, the stipulations one must fulfill for having their prayers answered are these:

1.Have faith. It doesn't matter how much, for even someone with the faith of a mustard seed will have their prayers answered.
2.Don't doubt in your faith.
3.Believe in Jesus and the works that he does.
4.Believe that you will receive what you pray for.
5.If you really want your prayer answered, get a group of people to all pray for the same thing.
6.If your prayer is not answered it.s your fault because you didn't have enough faith.

The Bible says that if you adhere to these rules then this is what God will do for you:
1.He will answer your prayers, no matter what you ask for.
2.Nothing will be impossible for you if you pray about it.

Yet reality seems to contradict this.

Although I did say I wasn't going to judge, let me proffer my observation:

If this post hints at what kind of beliefs you had about Christianity when you were a Christian, then I'm not surprised that you stopped believing. It appears that you might have missed the point of the whole thing...

 

[beastmaster]

Although I did say I wasn't going to judge, let me proffer my observation:

If this post hints at what kind of beliefs you had about Christianity when you were a Christian, then I'm not surprised that you stopped believing. It appears that you might have missed the point of the whole thing...

I'm simply rephrasing what the bible actually says using simplified language. I can quote specific passages if you'd like. Is there something I missed? The bible says these things very clearly...

 

[RaiseTheDead]

I'm afraid I don't have the time to individually answer each reply, but here is my take on prayer as presented in the New Testament: The new testament is relatively clear in regards to the power of prayer. According to scripture, the stipulations one must fulfill for having their prayers answered are these:

1.Have faith. It doesn't matter how much, for even someone with the faith of a mustard seed will have their prayers answered.
2.Don't doubt in your faith.
3.Believe in Jesus and the works that he does.
4.Believe that you will receive what you pray for.
5.If you really want your prayer answered, get a group of people to all pray for the same thing.
6.If your prayer is not answered it.s your fault because you didn't have enough faith.

The Bible says that if you adhere to these rules then this is what God will do for you:
1.He will answer your prayers, no matter what you ask for.
2.Nothing will be impossible for you if you pray about it.

Yet reality seems to contradict this.

Funny thing - the Bible also flatly contradicts your notion here.

Hmmm ... conclusion is?

 

[RaiseTheDead]

I think that an omnipotent and omniscient God would understand that I've made a sincere effort to critically examine my religious beliefs and also why that research has lead me away from Christianity ( despite my original aim to bolster my faith).

“pride as it is described biblically is essentially wanting our own way over God's way. God wants you to humble yourself and come to Him, we want God to "jump through hoops" in order for us to accept Him.

Pride is a fundamental sin

It is when we understand that God's standard is perfection, not just good enough as we understand it, that our pride can be broken. This can be a somewhat dangerous situation for those like us who struggle with low self esteem, as unless we are willing to allow Jesus to pick us up we can sometimes descend into apathy. God offers us the opportunity to die to ourselves and be born again with a new nature that is empowered by the Holy Spirit to do what we cannot, but our pride must be broken and our desire must be to follow God's Spirit, not our own selfish desires.” - Food4thought

I think I would make a good candidate for personal revelation.

If you took that same sentiment, and re-worded it into a prayer, to the maker and ruler of the Universe, it would be far more effective

 

[beastmaster]

Funny thing - the Bible also flatly contradicts your notion here.

Hmmm ... conclusion is?

(AGAIN) I'm simply rephrasing what the bible actually says using simplified language. I can quote specific passages if you'd like. Is there something I missed? The bible says these things very clearly...

Can you explain why?

 

[ebia]

What mountain might Jesus have been looking at when he said it?

 

[beastmaster]

What mountain might Jesus have been looking at when he said it?

Who knows, why? The Mount of Olives? Are you alluding to Mt. Sinai?

 

[Dragons87]

I'm simply rephrasing what the bible actually says using simplified language. I can quote specific passages if you'd like. Is there something I missed? The bible says these things very clearly...

The thing you missed, I would say, is the whole point of Christianity. Every bit of the faith should, I believe, should be based around the question, "How does this affect my relationship with God through Christ?" An original form of Christianity would always return to this question.

Prayer should be seen in that context, not merely a mechanism for fulfilling a Christmas wish list.

Some argue, quite powerfully, that prayer can be done away with, if God already knows what we want. Yet Jesus himself, immediately after confirming that God knows what we want, teaches his followers to pray a specific prayer (see Matthew 6:8-13). Isn't that wholly pointless? If we start from the assumption that prayer is something other than trying to get our wishes fulfilled, then Jesus' approach makes sense.

A rudimentary analysis of the Lord's prayer may perhaps be as follows:
Matt 6:9-10 - Worship of God
Matt 6:11 - Request for sustenance (spiritual as much as physical; see Matt 4:4 for Jesus' discussion of spiritual and physical bread)
Matt 6:12 - Request for help to love others as oneself
Matt 6:13 - Request for help to live a holy life

At no point in the prayer does Jesus ask anything for himself - what he asks has God and others in mind. It is because he has already confirmed that God knows what we want and will grant what we need to us in good measure - not what we want, but what we need.

The biblical view of prayer - or indeed of anything - should be seen in a context set out by the whole book, or books. We must remember that originally the books of the Bible were not subdivided into chapters and verses; they probably didn't even have sub-headings. So the Bible is best read without chapters and verses in mind, but in continuous prose (or poetry, or whatever literary genre is most appropriate). That's the best way to avoid cherry-picking and being led down the wrong path, which many have done with embarrassing consequences.

Given that, I would say that the notion that there is a set formula one has to follow in order to have one's prayers answered in the way he/she wants them to be answered is wholly unbiblical. It also hints, unfortunately, at what you've been missing in your walk with God! I used to pray frequently, sometimes with tears, that God would take my homosexuality away, for it is a burden I didn't think I could carry. Obviously I believe that God is powerful enough to change my sexuality in a stroke. Yet his (rather stubborn) refusal to do so made me think another way. I now rejoice in being homosexual, for it is a burden that gives me a unique insight into what it means to be a follower of Christ.

 

[ebia]

Who knows, why? The Mount of Olives? Are you alluding to Mt. Sinai?

More likely the Temple Mount, perhaps?

 

[ebia]

I'm afraid I don't have the time to individually answer each reply, but here is my take on prayer as presented in the New Testament: The new testament is relatively clear in regards to the power of prayer. According to scripture, the stipulations one must fulfill for having their prayers answered are these:

1.Have faith. It doesn't matter how much, for even someone with the faith of a mustard seed will have their prayers answered.
2.Don't doubt in your faith.
3.Believe in Jesus and the works that he does.
4.Believe that you will receive what you pray for.
5.If you really want your prayer answered, get a group of people to all pray for the same thing.
6.If your prayer is not answered it.s your fault because you didn't have enough faith.

The Bible says that if you adhere to these rules then this is what God will do for you:
1.He will answer your prayers, no matter what you ask for.
2.Nothing will be impossible for you if you pray about it.

Yet reality seems to contradict this.

Maybe there's something wrong with our thinking about "what you ask for".

We tend to assume that God knows the problem, but that we need to tell him the solution.

The psalms and other biblical prayers tend to work the other way around. They cry out to God about the problem, and twist his arm for intervention - but don't (generally) tell him how to act.

 

[beastmaster]

The thing you missed, I would say, is the whole point of Christianity. Every bit of the faith should, I believe, should be based around the question, "How does this affect my relationship with God through Christ?" An original form of Christianity would always return to this question.

Prayer should be seen in that context, not merely a mechanism for fulfilling a Christmas wish list.

Some argue, quite powerfully, that prayer can be done away with, if God already knows what we want. Yet Jesus himself, immediately after confirming that God knows what we want, teaches his followers to pray a specific prayer (see Matthew 6:8-13). Isn't that wholly pointless? If we start from the assumption that prayer is something other than trying to get our wishes fulfilled, then Jesus' approach makes sense.

A rudimentary analysis of the Lord's prayer may perhaps be as follows:
Matt 6:9-10 - Worship of God
Matt 6:11 - Request for sustenance (spiritual as much as physical; see Matt 4:4 for Jesus' discussion of spiritual and physical bread)
Matt 6:12 - Request for help to love others as oneself
Matt 6:13 - Request for help to live a holy life

At no point in the prayer does Jesus ask anything for himself - what he asks has God and others in mind. It is because he has already confirmed that God knows what we want and will grant what we need to us in good measure - not what we want, but what we need.

The biblical view of prayer - or indeed of anything - should be seen in a context set out by the whole book, or books. We must remember that originally the books of the Bible were not subdivided into chapters and verses; they probably didn't even have sub-headings. So the Bible is best read without chapters and verses in mind, but in continuous prose (or poetry, or whatever literary genre is most appropriate). That's the best way to avoid cherry-picking and being led down the wrong path, which many have done with embarrassing consequences.

Given that, I would say that the notion that there is a set formula one has to follow in order to have one's prayers answered in the way he/she wants them to be answered is wholly unbiblical. It also hints, unfortunately, at what you've been missing in your walk with God! I used to pray frequently, sometimes with tears, that God would take my homosexuality away, for it is a burden I didn't think I could carry. Obviously I believe that God is powerful enough to change my sexuality in a stroke. Yet his (rather stubborn) refusal to do so made me think another way. I now rejoice in being homosexual, for it is a burden that gives me a unique insight into what it means to be a follower of Christ.

You bring up the point of "pride" and diverting from "gods rules," but Gods rules are clearly laid out in the bible. I'm simply repeating what the bible says- how is that unreasonable? I have read the verses in their entire context and there is nothing to suggest that I am cherry-picking, taking verses out context, or quote mining. The verses themselves are certainly written like they should be taken literally (aside from the mountain moving, which I can accept as hyperbole). One aspect of prayer is that it brings people closer to God (which the verses you provided affirm), but your side-stepping the fact that God answers prayers in unambiguous, non-mystical ways throughout the bible. The verses I've alluded to simply state that he will continue to do so.

If God provides us with what we need rather than what we want, then how are we supposed to know that our prayers are being answered? For example, when a child dying from leukemia prays to be healed but ends up dying, how does God fulfill her needs? How would a world in which God answers prayers appear different from a world in which he does not (random chance)?

 

[RaiseTheDead]

I have read the verses in their entire context and there is nothing to suggest that I am cherry-picking, taking verses out context, or quote mining.

Actually there is. You are imposing onto the text some distorted message, which you would prefer the bible to say. You then trot that out here, and prop it up to show how foolish it is.

This is known as a logical fallacy; strawman.

The verses themselves are certainly written like they should be taken literally

And you base this on what?

Not your own personal experience.
Not church teaching, with positive proof of divine approval.
Not a thorough understanding of the original language.
Not via any application to the culture in which this was written.

Seems fair to conclude you have a baseless claim.

 

[Dragons87]

You bring up the point of "pride" and diverting from "gods rules," but Gods rules are clearly laid out in the bible. I'm simply repeating what the bible says- how is that unreasonable? I have read the verses in their entire context and there is nothing to suggest that I am cherry-picking, taking verses out context, or quote mining. The verses themselves are certainly written like they should be taken literally (aside from the mountain moving, which I can accept as hyperbole). One aspect of prayer is that it brings people closer to God (which the verses you provided affirm), but your side-stepping the fact that God answers prayers in unambiguous, non-mystical ways throughout the bible. The verses I've alluded to simply state that he will continue to do so. I've heard others say that God can't be tested since he's so much higher than us. This ignores the story of Gideon in the Old Testament and Thomas in the New Testament who both did exactly that and who received the proof that each had asked for.

I never said you were unreasonable, and I state categorically that I don't think you are being unreasonable.

I agree with you that God answers prayers in unambiguous, non-mystical ways, but I don't think there are any tick boxes we need to have ticked in order for a prayer to be answered. God is, as I am sure you are aware, not a refreshments vending machine that responds to the right incentives and buttons. If God is sovereign, then he gets to decide which prayers to answer in which way, does he not?

I wouldn't say you shouldn't test God. In fact, I think you should test him. It's perhaps a post-Enlightenment obsession we have: testing too much and not believing enough, but I'm sure God is happy to be tested (as per recorded in Malachi, and putting Thomas' doubts at rest). As the Chinese saying goes, true gold doesn't fear the test of the furnace.

If God provides us with what we need rather than what we want, then how are we supposed to know that our prayers are being answered? For example, when a child dying from leukemia prays to be healed but ends up dying, how does God fulfill her needs? How would a world in which God answers prayers appear different from a world in which he does not (random chance)?

To be honest I don't really care if my prayers are answered, particularly in the way I want them to be. Some of the stuff I pray for aren't realistic or beneficial, and I know it. All I want is to have the Almighty God lend an ear.

Take a moment to consider it. The Almighty God. Creator of all things material and immaterial. Lending an ear to me, a nobody - let alone agreeing to think about it and sometimes even granting what I patently do not deserve. That is already enough to blow my mind away. Am I still going to argue that he isn't providing me with this, that and the other? I'm confident that he will provide me with what I need, when I need it, for my own good, and for his glory.

Your issue, as I would see it, is not unreasonableness, but perspective. For a Christian, the idea that God would even deign to listen to a sinner's prayer is a big wonderment in itself. His promise then to answer in the right circumstances for that sinner's benefit is completely unfathomable. What you would rather quibble about is why God doesn't have a set formula for answering prayers. That's the difference between us, and that, I would suggest, is the reason why I'm still Christian and you no longer are.

 

[beastmaster]

Actually there is. You are imposing onto the text some distorted message, which you would prefer the bible to say. You then trot that out here, and prop it up to show how foolish it is.

This is known as a logical fallacy; strawman.



And you base this on what?

Not your own personal experience.
Not church teaching, with positive proof of divine approval.
Not a thorough understanding of the original language.
Not via any application to the culture in which this was written.

Seems fair to conclude you have a baseless claim.

Distorted message? Are you freaking kidding me?? You say I'm distorting the text, but you have offered nothing apart from fluff to support that claim. The text is clear as day. :

Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!"

Matthew 17:20 "For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

Matthew 21:21 "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Mark 11:24 "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

John 14:12-14 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."

Matthew 18:19 "Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

The concept of prayer as described in the bible simply doesn't make sense to me. A world in which God answers all prayers- material and spiritual- would be a mess. Billions of people pray for various things every day. Many of the prayer requests are even contradictory. For instance, in a football game, often the players and fans on both sides are praying to win. If God answers prayers, which side should He choose? The side that prays loudest? On the other hand, a world in which God answers prayers selectively appears no different from a world left up to random chance. If prayer is undetectable, how do we know that what happens is the result of prayer and not probability?



"Not your own personal experience."
I base them on my own personal experience- of having prayed as the bible has instructed for a variety of reasons (not just frivolous material gains) and nothing happening at as a result of it. I also base it on the fact that prayer has no demonstrable effect.


"Not church teaching, with positive proof of divine approval."
Which church? You have several to choose from, many of which contradict each other? The result of the Nicean councils was a man-made creed, there is no existential evidence that it was divinely inspired. Since it's conception, a myriad of theologians have contested it.

"Not a thorough understanding of the original language."
So therefore, no one with a thorough understanding of Greek or Aramaic can gain insight or have an opinion of the bible? I have to assume that at least some of the individuals who translated the original text to English must have been familiar with the original languages....

Not via any application to the culture in which this was written.
This is a common cop-out. God intended the bible to endure for Millenia and there is nothing in these passages that make them exclusively relevant to first century Christians.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

Distorted message? Are you freaking kidding me?? You say I'm distorting the text, but you have offered nothing apart from fluff to support that claim. The text is clear as day.

No I am not "freaking kidding you." You have not heeded the whole counsel of God, but are merely cherry-picking what you only wish were the message, in your zeal to erect your pathetic strawman.

Try this, just for starters:

(James 4:3) "Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume [it] upon your lusts."

How could you overlook this? It was written by someone who grew up right in Jesus' house! He was presiding over Temple worship while he didn't believe Jesus' claims, then he met Him post-crucifixion, and next thing you know he was leading the Christians worshiping in the same Temple!

The whole book is 5 chapters long. Is it asking you too much to take this into account?

This has DIRECT BEARING on what you are trying to distort.

The concept of prayer as described in the bible simply doesn't make sense to me. A world in which God answers all prayers- material and spiritual- would be a mess.

This should be your clue that you have a distorted idea on the subject. Why not take into account everything it has to say on the subject?

Not via any application to the culture in which this was written.
This is a common cop-out. God intended the bible to endure for Millenia and there is nothing in these passages that make them exclusively relevant to first century Christians.

And you speak for what God intends now? How am I possibly to take you as being sincere? Go ahead and thumb your nose at hermeneutics - but don't expect to gain any understanding that way.

 

[bling]

If God provides us with what we need rather than what we want, then how are we supposed to know that our prayers are being answered? For example, when a child dying from leukemia prays to be healed but ends up dying, how does God fulfill her needs? How would a world in which God answers prayers appear different from a world in which he does not (random chance)?

Christians can know that their prays are answered in the past by seeing the final result over time.


If a child dies:

1. Death is the way the innocent and the saved get to go home and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.

2. Yes God did fulfill her needs, but what about the needs of her family? It may take time and effort to get the “good” God intended for the family to receive from this tragedy.


If the world was “random” someone would have pushed the button by now and there would not be a world.

Today there is a problem that they did not have in the first century. We have scientific methods for “proofing” some has or did not happen as shown. If you could scientifically proof a miracle happened then you would not need faith to believe there is a God, but would have “knowledge” of God’s existence. The problem is you really need faith to help you fulfill your earthly objective and the easiest thing to believe in is the existence of God.

 

[beastmaster]

No I am not "freaking kidding you." You have not heeded the whole counsel of God, but are merely cherry-picking what you only wish were the message, in your zeal to erect your pathetic strawman.

Try this, just for starters:

(James 4:3) "Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume [it] upon your lusts."

So the context which I am taking these quotes out of is the "entire message of the Bible."? I can use virtually same tactic to discredit you by simply posting passages that seem to contradict yours and biblical stories which affirm the literalness of the quotes I posted. This is not a practical or efficient strategy when scrutinizing a book you yourself admit is not entirely literal. There are several passages/messages in the Bible concerning prayer and three possible ways each relates to the others- affirms, elaborates/adds/clarifies, or contradicts. Each of the passages in the list I posted clearly affirms the other. I did not include ALL of the passages concerning prayer, but I did augment my shorthand list to accommodate James 4:3. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that James 4:3 falls into the second category (elaborates/adds/clarifies) when on the surface it appears to contradict passages like Mark 11:24 "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

My aim is to create a comprehensive list of stipulations. For example, my second bullet point (2.Don't doubt in your faith.) directly relates to (James 1:6) “But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does” I include (James 4:3) as bullet point "6. "Don't pray with lustful motives"

My point is that if we cannot accept any passages concerning prayer to contradict each other, then we must accept that they somehow work in harmony with each other.

What we then have is this:

1.Have faith. It doesn't matter how much, for even someone with the faith of a mustard seed will have their prayers answered.
2.Don't doubt in your faith. (James 1:6)
3.Believe in Jesus and the works that he does.
4.Believe that you will receive what you pray for.
5.If you really want your prayer answered, get a group of people to all pray for the same thing.
6. Don't pray with lustful motives. (James 4:3)
7. Help those who ask for it, like the poor (Proverbs 21:13)
8. Confess your sins (Isaiah 59:1-2)
9.If your prayer is not answered it's your fault because you didn't have enough faith

The Bible says that if you adhere to these rules then this is what God will do for you:
1.He will answer your prayers, no matter what you ask for.
2.Nothing will be impossible for you if you pray about it.

How is the child on her deathbed in violation of these rules? What if her parents prayed for her recovery, or a stranger for that matter?

This should be your clue that you have a distorted idea on the subject. Why not take into account everything it has to say on the subject?

…..and you patronize ME for quote mining. You completely negate my point.

And you speak for what God intends now? How am I possibly to take you as being sincere? Go ahead and thumb your nose at hermeneutics - but don't expect to gain any understanding that way.

By the simple fact that the bible HAS endured for millennia.

I have answered all of your points. You are selectively answering mine.

 

[beastmaster]

Christians can know that their prays are answered in the past by seeing the final result over time.


If a child dies:

1. Death is the way the innocent and the saved get to go home and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.

2. Yes God did fulfill her needs, but what about the needs of her family? It may take time and effort to get the “good” God intended for the family to receive from this tragedy.


If the world was “random” someone would have pushed the button by now and there would not be a world.

Today there is a problem that they did not have in the first century. We have scientific methods for “proofing” some has or did not happen as shown. If you could scientifically proof a miracle happened then you would not need faith to believe there is a God, but would have “knowledge” of God’s existence. The problem is you really need faith to help you fulfill your earthly objective and the easiest thing to believe in is the existence of God.

1. Isn't death supposed to be the punishment for sin? Why is death now a good thing?
2. And when no good comes of it?

On the issue of "pushing the button": The decision to "not push the button" is just that- a conscious decision- not probability. The political leaders didn't base their decisions not to the push the button on the flip of a coin.

On the science issue: Why does God hide from scientifically literate modern people, and why didn't he hide from scientifically illiterate people?

 

[beastmaster]

To the people who say they are guided in prayer by the holy spirit:

Every time the nation starts rattling its saber with talk of war, the Holy Spirit tells some people that the war is righteous and tells other people that the war is unrighteous.

When a husband and wife pray for guidance on whether to home school their children or move to a new city or change churches, the Holy Spirit frequently tells the husband one thing and gives the wife the exact opposite answer.

It's not possible that all of them are hearing the Holy Spirit, but it's possible none of them are. Now we get into arrogance. The only way to salvage the situation is, "I'm hearing the holy spirit; the people who heard the opposite answer are not hearing the holy spirit." This translates roughly into: "I am so important that the creator of the universe really talks to me on this issue while others only think he's talking to them on this issue."