Can prayer move mountains?

[beastmaster]

According to Matthew 21,21 and other verses prayer can indeed move mountains.

"If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done."

Has this ever happened? If a mountain ever fell into the sea it would cause such an enormous tsunami that history would record it. Any number of Christians have faith, Christians who don’t know about the tsunami might well pray in faith for a mountain to move but history does not record a mountain moving. This verse of the Bible can’t be literally true.

 

[Elioenai26]

According to Matthew 21,21 and other verses prayer can indeed move mountains.

"If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done."

Has this ever happened? If a mountain ever fell into the sea it would cause such an enormous tsunami that history would record it. Any number of Christians have faith, Christians who don’t know about the tsunami might well pray in faith for a mountain to move but history does not record a mountain moving. This verse of the Bible can’t be literally true.

Jesus used many literary devices in His teachings. One is hyperbole (extreme exaggeration to prove a point).

The mountain being picked up and cast into the sea is another way of saying that that which is impossible shall become possible.

In no way is He trying to teach us to go out here and speak to physical mountains and tell them to be picked up and levitated to the physical sea.

If God's children come together and see a need and pray that God intervene according to His will in that situation, whatever the situation may be, God will do so. Not because the believers have any power in and of themselves, but because they, in obedience to His revealed will, are praying that His will might be done. The power of the Holy Spirit within them guides them in their prayer.

 

[drich0150]

According to Matthew 21,21 and other verses prayer can indeed move mountains.

"If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done."

Has this ever happened? If a mountain ever fell into the sea it would cause such an enormous tsunami that history would record it. Any number of Christians have faith, Christians who don’t know about the tsunami might well pray in faith for a mountain to move but history does not record a mountain moving. This verse of the Bible can’t be literally true.

I have, for the word here in the Greek is ὄρος oros and it literally translated into the word mountain in the English. But can figuratively mean "To accomplish a most difficult insurmountable thing." We have alliterations in the English and so did the 1st century Jews. (Perhaps more so)

 

[KNanza]

Jesus also said to hate your family members. I doubt if that was literal but only hyperbole.

 

[walkinthespirit]

According to Matthew 21,21 and other verses prayer can indeed move mountains.

"If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done."

Has this ever happened? If a mountain ever fell into the sea it would cause such an enormous tsunami that history would record it. Any number of Christians have faith, Christians who don’t know about the tsunami might well pray in faith for a mountain to move but history does not record a mountain moving. This verse of the Bible can’t be literally true.

Bless you, I pray God reveals Himself to you, and gives you many revelations of His Spiritm give bm a revelation of who You are Jesus!

 

[RaiseTheDead]

Bless you, I pray God reveals Himself to you, and gives you many revelations of His Spiritm give bm a revelation of who You are Jesus!

I'll say amen to that - with some slight modifications:


I pray God reveals Himself to you, and gives you many revelations of His Spirit. Give him a revelation of who You are Jesus!

Mr OP, this really is what it comes down to

 

[beastmaster]

Jesus used many literary devices in His teachings. One is hyperbole (extreme exaggeration to prove a point).

The mountain being picked up and cast into the sea is another way of saying that that which is impossible shall become possible.

In no way is He trying to teach us to go out here and speak to physical mountains and tell them to be picked up and levitated to the physical sea.

I've actually considered this before, but I'm slightly torn over the theology. On the surface it seems reasonable to accept the passage as hyperbole, but considering relative passages it's impossible to know exactly what the author had in mind. At the very least, the author must have been aware that the proposition to move mountains by prayer is easily testable. Even second century Christians would be quick to catch on that their prayers were not in fact moving mountains. Second, I don't think the author would consciously encourage good people to pray for a devastating tsunami (if he in fact knew of the catastrophic implications).


On the other hand is this passage radically different from:
"I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."(John 14)


And

"Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." (Mark 24)

If God's children come together and see a need and pray that God intervene according to His will in that situation, whatever the situation may be, God will do so. Not because the believers have any power in and of themselves, but because they, in obedience to His revealed will, are praying that His will might be done. The power of the Holy Spirit within them guides them in their prayer.

I have heard people say over the years that prayer can achieve anything and seen many times where it hasn't. Prayer in the New Testament is also presented as being completely dependable.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

I have heard people say over the years that prayer can achieve anything and seen many times where it hasn't.

Prayer accomplishes nothing, and the Bible teaches so.

GOD is the active agent ...

 

[beastmaster]

I'll say amen to that - with some slight modifications:


I pray God reveals Himself to you, and gives you many revelations of His Spirit. Give him a revelation of who You are Jesus!

Mr OP, this really is what it comes down to

Thanks. I feel that at this point in my studies, the only thing that will bring me to Christianity is a personal experience or revelation of my own. That's why I don't want to call myself a gnostic atheist- I'm willing to embrace the evidence if it is forthcoming.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

the only thing that will bring me to Christianity is a personal experience or revelation of my own.

- I'm willing to embrace the evidence if it is forthcoming.

A most reasonable position

Allow me to ask you, what do you think it was that caused God to reveal Himself to Moses? And is there anything like that that you and I can exhibit today?

 

[DCJazz]

Jesus also said to hate your family members. I doubt if that was literal but only hyperbole.

I suggest trying that again, but with more context and less nit-picking. Anybody can pick a verse and apply their own bias to it, after all.

In that verse it uses the greek word miseo, which has dual usage. While it can mean to 'despise or detest someone', it can also mean 'love less'.

Jesus wasn't saying to hate your family members in this instance; he was saying to love God more than your own family. It's about priorities, not hatred.

 

[singpeace]

According to Matthew 21,21 and other verses prayer can indeed move mountains.

"If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done."

Has this ever happened? If a mountain ever fell into the sea it would cause such an enormous tsunami that history would record it. Any number of Christians have faith, Christians who don’t know about the tsunami might well pray in faith for a mountain to move but history does not record a mountain moving. This verse of the Bible can’t be literally true.

The idea of moving a mountain was a common way of talking about doing seemingly impossible things (Job 9:5, Matt 17:20, Cor 13:2, cf. Lk 17:6). It does not necessarily refer to what we moderns might want to identify as "miraculous," meaning some fantastic supernatural feat. It simply refers to something that from a human perspective is impossible.

Faith here is not some magical power that human beings can exercise on their own. Here, faith is linked with "in prayer." This does not mean that prayer becomes the activating key to faith, but that faith must be submitted to God in prayer. The implication is that it is finally God and his will that govern how mountains are to be moved.

 

[beastmaster]

Prayer accomplishes nothing, and the Bible teaches so.

GOD is the active agent ...

I don't know what this means. Prayer in the New Testament is presented as a positive command. Christians are challenged to include prayer in their everyday life, even in the busy struggles of marriage as it brings people closer to God. (again) Prayer in the New Testament is also presented as being completely dependable. For example: "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

Allow me to ask you, what do you think it was that caused God to reveal Himself to Moses? And is there anything like that that you and I can exhibit today?

I don't think that. I may not be a Gnostic atheist, but I might be considered by most to be an agnostic atheist. My point was that it would take a compelling personal experience to make me believe that such miracles took place since there is no (from my experience) rational argument or evidence to support that they in fact happened as purported in the bible. I think that an omnipotent and omniscient God would understand that I've made a sincere effort to critically examine my religious beliefs and also why that research has lead me away from Christianity ( despite my original aim to bolster my faith). I think I would make a good candidate for personal revelation.

 

[Dragons87]

I don't think that. I may not be a Gnostic atheist, but I might be considered by most to be an agnostic atheist. My point was that it would take a compelling personal experience to make me believe that such miracles took place since there is no (from my experience) rational argument or evidence to support that they in fact happened as purported in the bible. I think that an omnipotent and omniscient God would understand that I've made a sincere effort to critically examine my religious beliefs and also why that research has lead me away from Christianity ( despite my original aim to bolster my faith). I think I would make a good candidate for personal revelation.

I have never met any Christian who came to Christ because they were convinced of the truth of the miracles that he may or may not have accomplished 2,000 years ago. All of them did, however, came to Christ because of the miracle that they believe he is doing now, on their lives.

"Seek and you will find." I would be surprised that if you are being honest to yourself, God would fault you for being unable to find him. But we are told that we have been given a specific method to find him. If you insist on using your own way to that destination and not use the tried and tested methods provided, whose fault would it be if you fail to reach your destination?

I'm not saying that you ARE using the wrong methods. Just something to consider.

 

[beastmaster]

"Seek and you will find." I would be surprised that if you are being honest to yourself, God would fault you for being unable to find him. But we are told that we have been given a specific method to find him. If you insist on using your own way to that destination and not use the tried and tested methods provided, whose fault would it be if you fail to reach your destination?

I'm not saying that you ARE using the wrong methods. Just something to consider.

What are these tried and true methods you speak of?

 

[singpeace]

What are these tried and true methods you speak of?

Beastmaster is not a Christian and cannot give you the answers you seek. He doesn't know Scripture and is talking in circles. Ignore him.

 

[Dragons87]

What are these tried and true methods you speak of?

Oh wow. I could go on forever about this. It depends what kind of person you are, and what stimuli you respond to best. But there are some first principles, for example, acknowledging, even as a thought experiment, that there is a god.

 

[beastmaster]

Beastmaster is not a Christian and cannot give you the answers you seek. He doesn't know Scripture and is talking in circles. Ignore him.

This is an oddly phrased statement. I'm not even sure who you're trying to address… I was the one who posed the original question. Why would you state the obvious considering the subtitle of this forum: " This forum is for non-believers seeking to know more about Christianity." If you think I've misrepresented/misinterpreted scripture or demonstrated flawed reasoning then explain why you think that. Otherwise you're just making unsubstantiated assertion/ ad hominum. You know nothing about my past history with Christianity and the extent of my knowledge of scripture.

 

[beastmaster]

Oh wow. I could go on forever about this. It depends what kind of person you are, and what stimuli you respond to best. But there are some first principles, for example, acknowledging, even as a thought experiment, that there is a god.

I've done much more than just play with the idea that God exists. I was a devout Christian for nearly 20 years.

 

[Dragons87]

I've done much more than just play with the idea that God exists. I was a devout Christian for nearly 20 years.

I'm sure you have your story to tell. I am not going to ask for it, nor am I going to judge, for I am not worthy to. I can only say that for me, he has been faithful all the time, and looking back, times when I thought he wasn't caring about me was because I wasn't caring about him. And my journey with him hasn't been easy, with me being gay and whatnot.

I don't know what's not gone right in your relationship with him. I would only say that I wouldn't trade my relationship with him for anything else.