Can one go through Jesus without realizing it?

[Brother Chris]

I really don't think the Bible is as clear on that subject as you might think.

The bible is clear. Either you know Christ and He knows you, or you are not saved. Period!

 

[Open Heart]

My statements deal with humility and grief at
not being able to fulfill our promise to serve God, which is what the Pharisee did not do, but the publican did, and asking God for mercy, leading to justification. I never raised the topic of repentance leading to forgiveness.

There is a difference.

Wasn't it you that said you had no evidence that Ninevah succeeded in repenting? Because I quoted you the verse.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Abel was not saved by his works, but by his faith in God. The evidence of his faith was his good works. Cain was not saved, and the evidence of that was the works of the flesh.

Good attempt. However this is what we get from SCRIPTURE, this is what happened:


Abel observed the futility of the life lived in pursuance of earthly gain. He left serving the worldy life and covenanted to serve God. He did not succeed in observing the requirements of the covenant and fell before God for mercy, crying out, "Lord forgive me, a sinner". He went away justified, considered righteous by God. He received revelation that God would make right his situation. Happy is the man whose sins are not held against him, whose are cleansed with divine blood, for without shedding of this blood there is no remission of sin. His belief in this revelation was demonstrated by depicting it in the form of the sacrifice of a firstling. Of course the sacrifice was not a sacrifice but a depiction of God's work, because the blood of bulls and goats in themselves can not take away sin. Belief in the revelation manifested by the animal sacrifice was his act of loyalty.


Hebrews 11:4By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.


Cain's offering was a manifestation of what he thought was his relationship with God, righteous living, a life lived serving God. No human can serve God, since He needs nothing.


Acts 17:24The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;



With Abel's offering God was pleased because it showed his loyalty, his agreement with God's revelation of his inadequacy. With Cain's offering God was not pleased because it depicted God in need.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Wasn't it you that said you had no evidence that Ninevah succeeded in repenting? Because I quoted you the verse.

Show me evidence of this:

Was Nineveh presented with the law of God? Whoever turns to serve God is presented with the law of God. Did Nineveh experience death at the hands of the law? Everyone experiences death at the hands of the law. Did Nineveh turn to God for mercy? There is no biblical record of this event.

 

[Open Heart]

Show me evidence of this:

Was Nineveh presented with the law of God? Whoever turns to serve God is presented with the law of God. Did Nineveh experience death at the hands of the law? Everyone experiences death at the hands of the law. Did Nineveh turn to God for mercy? There is no biblical record of this event.

It doesn't record what Ninevah was presented with, but it makes sense to say that Ninevah was reminded of the Universal laws that Gentiles are to follow.

Now, why are you avoiding what was proven to you with SCRIPTURE, that Ninevah repented and God forgave them, meaning their repentance was successful? You keep running away...

 

[Wordkeeper]

It doesn't record what Ninevah was presented with, but it makes sense to say that Ninevah was reminded of the Universal laws that Gentiles are to follow.

Now, why are you avoiding what was proven to you with SCRIPTURE, that Ninevah repented and God forgave them, meaning their repentance was successful? You keep running away...

What is the difference between. salvation in the OT and the NT?

 

[Open Heart]

What is the difference between. salvation in the OT and the NT?

No difference except that in the NT we are AWARE of Jesus' sacrifice.

 

[Wordkeeper]

No difference except that in the NT we are AWARE of Jesus' sacrifice.

Apparently salvation is different in the NT from the OT:

Luke7:28"I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

Hebbrews 4:8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.

Not being aware of Christ's sacrifice is to not have eternal life, which apparently you think the OT believers did not have:

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

 

[Open Heart]

Apparently salvation is different in the NT from the OT:

Your references didn't really prove your point. But thanks.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Your references didn't really prove your point. But thanks.

The point is that NT mostly deals with what remains for the believer to do, in.the aftermath of the Cross.


Most of us make the mistake of forming atomistic views. We say we,are saved by faith alone not by works using the following verses as proof.


Romans 3:20For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law,because the knowledge of sin comes through the law.

Galatians 2:16... that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by theworks of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.


What are these verses, then, chopped liver?


Romans 8:13For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live.


1 Corinthians 5:10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.


However its hard to argue with people with tunnel vision, who cant see the totality of Scripture.


The reason why we are not able to accommodate these uncomfortable teachings into our theology is because we jump to the first available conclusion.


An example in the secular world is when the police find a person with the motive, the opportunity and the lack of an alibi and feel they have found a solution.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Blaze


Inspector Gregory has already arrested a man in connection with John Straker's murder by the time Holmes and Watson arrive at King's Pyland, the Dartmoor stable owned by Colonel Ross, from which Silver Blaze is missing. The suspect is Fitzroy Simpson, a London bookmaker who has come to Dartmoor (and specifically to King's Pyland) to gather information relating to his professional activities (which include wagers placed on favourites for the Wessex Cup, the race in which Silver Blaze is to run).




However there are incidents that are unexplained:




Gregory: "The dog did nothing in the night-time."Holmes: "That was the curious incident.




The police feel that the incident was unrelated and could probably be explained away. But what if the incident WAS linked to the crime?


Similarly you seen to believe that my references have no link to the topic. What if they DO?


For example you said that OT salvation involved being saved by Christ but being unaware of Him. However there are passages that say they were indeed aware of Him.


Hebrews 11:13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.


Luke 8:56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."


IOW, you think the salvation that NT believers received was seen but not received.


But eternal life is not just knowing Christ, and knowing Christ involves more than seeing the Cross, or believing that it took away sin. Eternal life made itself felt, was life changing:


1 John 3:14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.



Moreover, John unpacks what loving one's brother is:


1 John 3: 16We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.


To reiterate,


The atomistic view you support:


OT believers were saved, without being aware.


Scripture support:


Luke 18:13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


However,


This is the holistic view, taking ALL the evidence laid out in Scripture:


1 God placed men in different situations designed to turn them to God.


2 Men turned to God and then sinned again.


3 God is slow to anger and reached out to them again.


4 OT believers were saved by turning away from serving self and to serving God.


5 They failed to serve God because they were hindered by the body of death.


6 They fell on their knees and asked for mercy.


7 They were saved.


This includes the tax collector. The Pharisee replaced God's law with tradition and was not saved.



Romans 10:13For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.




Romans 9:30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,33just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”



Nahum reports that Nineveh reached stage 3 and her sins had reached a set limit. She vanished, as did Sodom and Gomorrah. Israel as a nation survived because there always a group which was found righteous.

 

[Open Heart]

Most of us make the mistake of forming atomistic views. We say we,are saved by faith alone not by works using the following verses as proof.

As long as you understand that we are ALSO justified by works and NOT by faith alone.

 

[James Is Back]

As long as you understand that we are ALSO justified by works and NOT by faith alone.

Um no:

Gal 2:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified

 

[Open Heart]

Um no:

Um, dude, all I did was quote scripture word for word. You just said Um no to scripture.
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24 And I said that "As long as you also know that..."

 

[James Is Back]

Well then there must be a contradiction since Galatians and James have a counterpoint. One says we aren't justified by works and the other says we are unless one sees James in the full context and not just one verse.

 

[James Is Back]

Better yet study here and find out what the context of James is:

http://old.cleargospel.org/topics.php?t_id=10&c_id=17

 

[Open Heart]

Well then there must be a contradiction since Galatians and James have a counterpoint. One says we aren't justified by works and the other says we are unless one sees James in the full context and not just one verse.

Both don't use the word alone. We are not saved by faith alone, nor are we saved by works alone. Faith and works go together, a working faith, the kind of faith that produces good works. See how it goes? Where we get into trouble is when we go it alone, when we say we are saved by works alone, or saved by faith alone, that we get into trouble.

 

[James Is Back]

Then I guess we're glossing over Ephesians:

Eph 2:8-9:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[Open Heart]

Then I guess we're glossing over Ephesians:

Eph 2:8-9:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

It doesn't say faith alone, does it? And one could interpret it is being not of works alone. It is a very vague verse compared to for example James 2:24. You see, there is only one way we can get all the verses to fit together and have the whole Bible work together seemlessly, which I'm sure you'll agree we want.

 

[Wordkeeper]

The topic is complex and people can easily fall into errors of conflating elements which should not be conflated. For example, justification and sanctification are two different issues and have different implications.The best way to examine the topic is to lay out what happens in the process of salvation and then find out how different categories of people are affected by it.Those who realise that this world is a preparatory stage for the next world, indicated by their understanding that to live this life to satisfy the goals of this life is futile, causing them to reach out to God to discover what pleases Him, these people are said to have changed their mind, metanoia, ambiguously termed " repented". They soon conclude that God requires them to live so as to harvest heavenly treasure, and they fail, because their flesh is weak, and they end up crying out to God for relief. These are justified. Their spirits are with God.However great their rewards will be, the rewards to those who enter the kingdom of God, ushered in by Christ, will be greater. That is because Christ is the seed of Abraham through whom the world is blessed, meaning He is the one who removes the obstacle, save us from our body of death. Now it is possible to live the life that harvests eternal treasure. Their bodies will be resurrected.
Regroup
Old CovenantRepent (turn from serving self, seeking treasure of this world, to serving God, seeking eternal treasure).Fail (because of being hindered by this body of death).Seek relief from God (fall on His mercy).Become justified (God desires loyalty, obedience, not sacrifice, performance, because He loves a humble heart, which acknowledges the weakness of the flesh, inability to attain a righteousness of one's own doing).New CovenantRepent (turn from serving self, seeking treasure of this world, to serving God, seeking eternal treasure, demonstrated by asking for God's uniform, baptism).Succeed (because of not being hindered by this body of death, which is being put to death, by believing God's grace, now available through Christ, demonstrated by confession, asking for the cleansing of revealed sin, by the blood of Gods Son).Become sanctified.You see here that the process is justification by belief, and sanctification by belief. We do not start out with belief and try to complete it through works. (God desires loyalty, obedience, not sacrifice, performance, because He loves a humble heart, which acknowledges the weakness of the flesh, inability to attain a righteousness of one's own doing, but on the promised righteousness that comes from God).Now try to find out which category of salvation a Muslim or a Buddhist who follows God's requirements and fails and realizes his inability can be fitted into.This method to find out a person's status works even though the new covenant is in force.

Both your views are atomistic. The holistic view, enumerated to help you distinguish the clear steps:



New Covenant


1. Repent (turn from serving self, seeking treasure of this world, to serving God, seeking eternal treasure, demonstrated by asking for God's uniform, baptism).

2. Succeed (because of not being hindered by this body of death, which is being put to death, by believing God's grace, now available through Christ, demonstrated by confession, asking for the cleansing of revealed sin, by the blood of God's Son).

2. Become sanctified.


Faith is loyalty, being of one mind. Confession is reply with agreement ,, speech with agreement, con fess, like chili con carne is chili with meat.


Baptism is faith, loyalty, agreement with what God teaches, that serving self is wrong, that serving each other and God is right. GOD DOES THE GOOD WORK. Your spirit is seated with Christ in high places.


Confession is faith, an act of loyalty, agreement with what God teaches, that the flesh is weak , unable to serve God, because of the sins, the bad habits that the flesh harbours. Unlike before the Cross, God not only justifies, marks you, brands you as His sheep, He sanctifiies, removes your blemishes. You could say he is required to do it, because of His promise. That's why the verse says He is just. It's obligatory and the righteousness of God requires He be just and fulfill that obligation. Such a rich text, so rewarding is the unpacking:


1 John 1:9

English Standard Version
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

New American Standard Bible
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Our faith, His works.

Evidence of a living faith, a productive faith.

 

[Open Heart]

Both your views are atomistic. The holistic view, enumerated to help you distinguish the clear steps:

You can repeat you dispensationalist views until the cows come home. Your arguments are simply not persuasive.