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Can I Ask God to Hurt Those Who Hurt Me, and What is Forgiveness?

Discussion in 'Christian Advice' started by lonely_loser, Jan 6, 2012.

  1. lonely_loser

    lonely_loser Newbie

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    You do have two sides on this issue. On the one hand, Jesus says if you don't forgive others then you can't be forgiven, but you have writers in the Old Testament asking God to kill their enemies and in the New Testament, in the Book of Revelations, you have martyrs asking God to kill the inhabitants of Earth?

    Did these people forgive their enemies? It might seem like they haven't, but what does the bible mean by "forgiveness" in the first place?

    Take another example, if some one steals from you or does something illegal to you, can you still forgive this person while pressing charges against them? Or, does the bible require you to NOT press charges against that person, in order for God not to press charges against you?
     
  2. wayfaring man

    wayfaring man Veteran

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    To a great extent forgiving means not pursuing revenge, especially on our own.

    There can be instances where we acceptably pray for God to persuade those (who are doing us and others wrong), to cease and desist, and this can involve strong deterrents.

    Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: <-----> 2nd Timothy 4:14

    And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
    Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
    <-----> John 20:22+23

    Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; <-----> 2nd Thessalonians 1:6

    But to warn against being overzealous in this regard we are also told -

    For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
    But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
    <-----> Galatians 5:14+15

    So that, even when Paul said to deliver an offender unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, his motive was still one of hoping for that person's spirit to be saved.

    In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
    <-----> 1st Corinthians 5:4+5

    Being free from punishment doesn't necessarily equal being loved...in fact The Bible teaches that, for us who sin, it's quite the opposite -

    See HEBREWS CHAPTER 12

    wm
     
  3. Mrs. Luther073082

    Mrs. Luther073082 Commit to the LORD whatever you do - Proverbs 16:3

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    Maybe it would be a good idea to speak with a Pastor about these things.
     
  4. Emmy

    Emmy Senior Veteran

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    Dear lonely loser. Forgiveness is to forgive and forget what has been done to you, and God will forgive us as we forgive others. God`s Love is behind this, because if we do not forgive, we only carry the hurt around with us, and suffer the pain. The best answer is, " give all hurt and pain to Jesus, and ask Jesus to carry it away.
    As for asking God to help you to hurt back, that would be impossible, BECAUSE God is Love, and Love will not hurt.
    However: God`s eternal Law of Justice will Repay. Paul tells us in Galatians chapter 6, verse 7-9: and we know it under: " Whatever ye sow, ye will also reap." people who do wrong often, will certainly pay the consequences, sooner or later.
    God can see our hearts and knows our thoughts, and we have to remember that we are on Earth, to learn to become as God wants us to be. God is Love, and God wants loving children/sons and daughters. Jesus tells us in Matthew, chapter 22, verses 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all your hearts, with all your souls, and with all your minds. The second is: Love your neighbour as yourselves." Then Jesus states this great truth: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Love, and to love, is what God wants from us. We have much time to become better and better at loving freely and no conditions attached. Everything we say, or do, should be done from Love.
    God will see our sincere efforts to love and care, and God will bless us, Also: God will know that we love Him (God): because we follow His Commandments to love. I say this with love, lonely loser. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
     
  5. briareos

    briareos New Member

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    In the Old Testament people killed to preserve their lives and families lives, it was often war. You also have to consider that some of what David wrote in the Psalms was simply how he felt, some people believe that not everything he wrote displayed the perfect will of God, such as the righteous bathing in the blood of the wicked. That's how he felt, I don't believe it was the will of God.

    What Jesus said is the will of God, we must forgive. That does not mean you cannot defend yourself and protect yourself and your family.

    Paul said there were people he handed over to Satan so they would learn. I think that is the act of no longer praying for them, it is not the same thing as praying that God harm another.

    We know what forgiveness is because we see it in Jesus forgiving us, we must forgive others the same way and we should pray for our enemies.
     
  6. Quasicentennial

    Quasicentennial Member

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    Understanding cruelty itself and where it came from in the first place is something I wished God had the power to get rid of it right from the beginning since the first male and female human couple, Adam and Eve, who enjoyed their hungry taste with God's delicious forbidden fruit that started the power of sin where cruelty and violence never seem to disappear from our memories. Without the spiritual protection of Jesus against Satan's spiritual war inside our minds and bodies, our main target always seems to be the person and not the cruelty itself and why God instead of getting rid of Satan for deceiving Adam and Eve, he allowed Satan to do his dirty work of deceiving innocent future generations, such as us, from our first human parents to suffer the power of sin. Jesus our Lord Savior and Healer is our exit from Satan's suffering to Christ's peace and joy. The Word of God cannot be destroyed and has survived through the violence and mankind's rulership, such as Hitler, because the supernatural forgiveness of Jesus is in our Christian hearts as we learn to grow stronger in faith with the fearlessness and peace of Jesus. The love of Christ is supernatural and will always show it's pure power of the holy spirit in Jesus during a crisis. God knows our future and would not allow another global flood to happen - that science fiction movie 2012 looks like another world flood might happen sometime during this year, but if God says it won't happen then it is real proof that God is not a scam.:*:.
    :liturgy:
    :cool:
     
  7. Autumnleaf

    Autumnleaf Legend

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    Forgiving people doesn't mean you let them hurt you or those you love. It just means you don't harbor resentment towards them. If someone just stole your car you should call the cops. If someone beat you up in kindergarten then you should let it go. In both cases you should forgive them, not resent what they did to you.
     
  8. liarsParadox

    liarsParadox Newbie

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    So, you don't think that parents should be allowed to discipline their kids, then? Because, you said that "God is Love, and Love will not hurt." So, if parents really love their kids then they shouldn't discipline them, because discipline hurts (either physically or emotionally).

    In all seriousness, this reminds me of this atheist at work, who sits in the cubicle next to mine. He was arguing with me one time, about how an all-knowing God shouldn't have to enact His wrath on anyone.

    And, I told him that some people will not listen to you any other way. Sometimes, you seriously need to lay some hurt down on some people before they'd ever start listening to you. And, I brought up how the people of Israel would disobey God and sacrifice their kids in fire to Baal Molech or saw prophets in half.

    God needed to lay some hurt on the people of Israel in order to save them. Our loving God in the bible does in fact hurt people. Don't ignore it just because you don't like it, because it's there.

    However, that isn't to say that God isn't loving. Love can also include punishment, because it'll save us from becoming worse people. If you never discipline your children, then how will your children grow up? What kind of people will they become?

    Likewise, God does hurt us in our lifetimes if He plans to save us. The fact that He chastises us means that we're more blessed than those He never chastises because He's trying to condition us for entry into His Kingdom, whereas those people who are never chastised will never get the chance.
     
  9. Crusader knight

    Crusader knight Newbie

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    This morning , it occurred to me as I was mulling over my sins, I have much to be forgiven for. God is so wonderful to forgive me for all my transgressions. How much more so should I be willing to forgive. Sometimes, it is better to be wronged. Sometimes, not so much. Be lead by the Spirit within. ++CK++
     
  10. candle glow

    candle glow whatever I want to be

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    What a fantastic hypothetical...

    Yeah right, and in the old testament we were "told" to hate our enemies, but Jesus said that rule was just so old testament...

    The new "rule" is to love our enemies.

    No, actually. This is what the verse actually says...

    Nothing in there about kill. Trust is is given to the Lord to decide what "vengeance" is. It COULD be assumed that the phrase "avenge our blood" means an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...but then again, the Revelation ALSO says that the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus: Rev 19:19. And Jesus said that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth really just misses the spirit of the Kingdom of Heaven...

    When Jesus was traveling at on point, he sent some disciples ahead of him into a village. But the village didn't didn't want Jesus. The disciples were angry, and they asked Jesus if they should call down fire from Heaven to consume such a disbelieving village. The context is that Jesus was traveling at night; he didn't even have a place to sleep. The disciples were probably counting on the hospitality of this village to help them out with a place to sleep and a bit of food, but the village refused, hence the "righteous indignation of the disciples to call fire down from Heaven".

    But Jesus rebuked them, saying that the knew not what spirit they were promoting. He said that he came to save people, not destroy them.

    I thought wayfaring's answer to some of the verses lonely questioned were pretty good.

    I've also heard it said that to forgive is divine, but to forget is stupid. Take alcoholism or pedophilia, for example. We may be able to forgive such offenses, but it would be stupid of us to forget that such people have PROBLEMS which should not be forgotten.

    Otherwise we'd be in this perpetual stupor of idiocy where people just keep getting hurt over and over and over again because we keep forgetting that there is a problem.

    Really? Sounds like modern day thinking to me. It's ALWAYS the same reasoning when it comes to war, whether it's 5000 years ago or right now...

    I agree, very much. No matter who the person is/was (aside form Jesus) they are not INFALLIBLE, even IF God does choose to speak through them at times. Being inspired is not the same thing as being infallible.

    I agree. If I saw a woman being raped, I would have no problem throwing a rock at the head of whoever was doing it, or slamming my body against the attacker to knock him out of the way. This is because I would not see this person as my "enemy" but rather, the person in trouble as my brother/sister.

    Obviously, I would not want to kill the attacker but at the same time it would be unloving to the person being attacked if I just sat down, folded my hands in prayer, and asked for God to do what my God-given common sense tells me I should do. It's not hate or revenge, but just common sense. Help.

    HOWEVER, my understanding of Christianity tells me that the compromise between letting others suffer or letting evil triumph is to put MYSELF in between the two. If the only way to save the victim and still NOT do harm to the attacker is to put myself in the place of the victim then I see that as a very Christian alternative to either letting the victim suffer OR doing violence to the attacker.

    Generally speaking I'd agree with you, but I'm not so sure about the "calling the cops" thing. I'm not saying it's wrong to do that, but just that I think it takes a lot of wisdom to know what do to in each situation. There IS some merit in the idea of just letting it go, particularly if doing so has a direct effect on the person who stole/hurt. But even more than that, I think God is concerned about our own spiritual welfare when people hurt us, either by stealing from us or physically hurting us.

    Considering that this life is so temporary and eternal life lies ahead, maybe it's okay for us to let go of stuff every now and then, whether it's material possessions or even our own physical health. Just sayin...

    Very practical advice, liars. Thank you for sharing it. :)
     
  11. Living in the Light

    Living in the Light How may I be a better Christian?

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    Perhaps it would be good to change your screen name from lonely loser to something a little more uplifting. I can't help but think this affects how you see yourself and others. Just a little friendly suggestion...
     
  12. candle glow

    candle glow whatever I want to be

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    I dunno, maybe it's not so bad...

    The last will be first and the first will be last and those who mourn now will later laugh. Maybe it's not so bad to feel sometimes sad...
     
  13. briareos

    briareos New Member

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    candle glow

    I was simply saying that the historical circumstances and situation is different now for us and during the times of Jesus, than it was in the Old Testament. Throughout the old testament the context concerns wars, battles, people killing each other with swords defending their families and kingdom's and HAVING to kill in order to survive. People prayed that their enemies died so that they could live and so their families wouldn't be murdered and raped and bloodied under the boots of war. David's stories concerned killing and many of his poems and writings expressed how his enemies were closing in around him and him calling out to God for help. They didn't intend to hurt his feelings or steal his things, they were going to kill him and everyone he loved.

    The time and context of Jesus Christ's story was very different as it is for most of us today. There are wars today but the vast majority of people in our world have never experienced war or served in their nations military and have no need to kill military enemies to live another day. That was in fact a heavy theme in the Old Testament. If you had enemies within a mile of your home who were going to kill you and you had no way of stopping them you'd probably pray that they die too.
     
  14. Emmy

    Emmy Senior Veteran

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    Dear liars Paradox. God is Love, and it is God`s eternal Law of Justice which will chastise and teach. We know it under: " what ye sow ye will also reap." Rewards for loving and caring, and fitting consequences for ignoring, or even going against God`s Commandments, for us to learn from. Human fathers will punish and discipline their naughty children, but God is doing much more. His eternal Law of Justice will teach and prepare us, for living eternity with our Heavenly Father, and Christian brothers and sisters. God wants us to be Reborn, to change our selfish and unloving character, TO: loving God with all our beings, and loving our neighbour, ( all others, whether friends or not friends) as we love ourselves. Jesus died that we might live, Jesus reconciled us to God, and Jesus our Saviour will help and lead us back to God, in fact: Jesus is The Way. I say this with love, liars Paradox. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
     
  15. candle glow

    candle glow whatever I want to be

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    I am suggesting that people use the same reasoning to justify war today, too. There is always a "good reason" to go to war. I'm not saying bad things don't happen, but when it comes to war, there is never anyone who says something like "hey I feel like killing a bunch of people today for no reason".

    They always have a reason and they always want others to believe their reasons are noble and/or justified.

    Actually, no. The Jewish nation was being occupied by Roman armies and the Jews hated it. Prophecies about the messiah mentioned that he would come as a conquerer, overthrowing the armies of men and ushering in God's Kingdom with "god's people" at the forefront.

    The Jews just naturally assumed this messiah would be a powerful warlord who would overthrow the armies of the Romans and put the Jews on top of everyone else. They wanted war.

    It's not so different to how America, in particular, has behaved in the past and still behaves today.

    They all have their reasons for why war is justified, but Jesus knew/knows better. Far from conquering any governments or armies he just gave himself up and died. But, he had his reasons, too...
     
  16. briareos

    briareos New Member

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    The context of the story of Jesus did not concern war and the lives of most people in the world today do not concern war. That is all I am saying.
     
  17. candle glow

    candle glow whatever I want to be

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    Hi brier,

    But, the context of "the story of Jesus" did include enemy loving, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find any war in history where the combatants didn't think of the opposing side as their enemies.

    You say "most people" today, but based on the flag icon you use, I think I can safely assume that you are from America. America is currently involved in 2 wars, and ready start others at a moments notice if they feel they have sufficient reason to.

    It's not clear to me why you are trying so hard to separate "war" from the teachings of Jesus and/or the context of this thread, i.e. praying for God to hurt those who hurt us.
     
  18. briareos

    briareos New Member

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    You seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying. I am saying the reason the story of Jesus isn't as violent and doesn't concern as much killing is because the story simply doesn't involve those things the way the Old Testament did. That is all I am saying.

    I am an American soldier, I serve in the U.S Military and am currently in Afghanistan in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. That being said... I am not going to talk politics.

    Most people in this world today have never experienced war or served in any military, this is a fact. I say that to mean that most of our lives simply don't concern such violence and we will never live the life that David did.

    I am simply showing why the New testament and our present lives don't concern as much killing as the Old Testament.

    I am not saying that nothing Jesus said concerns how to treat people, war, or killing. I am saying the stories are very different because of when and how they lived.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2012
  19. candle glow

    candle glow whatever I want to be

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    Yes, I think there is definitely a misunderstanding. I am suggesting the "story of Jesus' does not involve any killing at all. That is the point of enemy love, we don't kill our enemies. But you use the phrase "as much killing" which seems to imply the "story of Jesus" does refer to SOME enemy killing, but just not as much as the OT stuff...

    Once again, I am a bit confused as to where you are coming from on this. I am assuming that, because you are in Afghanistan fighting in a war, you have some reason to believe that what you are doing is justified, but think that's what I've been saying all along; we all have our reasons for saying why war is justified...

    If you want to equate Jesus' teachings about enemy loving to "politics" then that's up to you, but I'm not running for any office and it doesn't matter to me who does so I have very little interest in winning any points on this issue.

    I'm just talking about what Jesus said.
     
  20. briareos

    briareos New Member

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    Well I don't actually know what your point is so... anyway, have a wonderful day.
     
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