Can Christians go to hell?

[FreeGrace2]

Sadly, we have those who believe you can sow to the flesh and still reap everlasting life.

Who would that be, specifically? If there is any here who has said that, there should be an actual post with an actual quote.

I have clearly explained that to "reap" eternal life isn't about having eternal life, but having much MORE than just being in heaven. Being rewarded richly.

Those who sow to the flesh will experience God's discipline of physical death. And don't count on it being from dying in one's sleep either.

1 Cor 11:30 - For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep (euphemism for physical death).

 

[steephenkarar]

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
Revelation 22:12‭-‬15 NKJV

 

[Marvin Knox]

I am really surprised you admit to serving the old man,

My new man and my old man still exist in me and therefore I refer to both as "me" when I talk about my life.

I could just play games and say that the old man isn't me and that I don't sin now since I am the new creation. That is true of course - but it would be playing games with words and wouldn't allow for the overall truth concerning life to come out.

Maybe in your circles born again men do not admit to doing some things out of the old man and not all things out of the new man. But I'm an honest man. Nuff said about that lest I end up flaming someone here.

I guess Paul's words have no meaning to you.

Of course they do.

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Was your old man crucified with Him, or are you still serving it? Doesn't Paul say that the body of sin might be done away with?

My old man was crucified with Christ. All of my sins - past, present, and future - were laid on Him.

Of course you and a few others here don't believe that so we have a big communications problem to begin with.

Why is it you still admit to be a slave to sin?

Because there have been intermittent episodes of yielding to the old man who still resides in me. In that sense, I suppose, you could say that occasionally I am a slave to sin.

You won't admit to the same thing?

Do you not know that sowing to the flesh is corruption and not everlasting life?

Of course I do. Why would you ask such a things?

What's with you?

Old man crucified; new man raised; wood, hay, stubble; crowns, precious jewels - all that Bible stuff. Get with the program and systematically include it all in your theology and not just pick and choose to make your points.

Your gospel doesn't know what to believe.

My gospel is very clear to me. I include all of the scriptures in my thinking and thus know exactly what I believe and why.

Your exclusion of Romans 6:6 shows us that. Your balanced theology is teetering on its edge.

I have shown you in a very brief answer earlier that I have included Romans 6:6 in my understanding.

Have you included John 5:24 in yours?

One more verse you have apparently dismissed -
Ephesians 4:22
that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
You are to put off your former behavior, the old man,

I haven't missed it.

Marvin. You don't know who to serve, the old man or new man. Serving the old man, shows you haven't escaped corruption, which is what people will reap if they sow to it.

I know exactly who to serve. I strive to serve the one who saved me and who will never leave me nor forsake me.

I don't know exactly who you strive to serve since you don't have such a savior by your own admission.

Apparently you are a better man than anyone I know in life. I know of no one I have met in over 70 years who has reached such a state of perfection so as to say that they never sow to the flesh.

I'll leave you now since I'm feeling so convicted by you ---- NOT!

You people are amazing.

 

[EmSw]

Who would that be, specifically? If there is any here who has said that, there should be an actual post with an actual quote.

I have clearly explained that to "reap" eternal life isn't about having eternal life, but having much MORE than just being in heaven. Being rewarded richly.

Those who sow to the flesh will experience God's discipline of physical death. And don't count on it being from dying in one's sleep either.

1 Cor 11:30 - For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep (euphemism for physical death).

Of course it's not about having eternal life. Why would anyone think that? I think you should go to Cinderella's forum; maybe some there will take you seriously.

It looks like everyone is going to experience God's discipline of physical death. Maybe the three little pigs will squeal this from the rooftops for you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this:
"Who would that be, specifically? If there is any here who has said that, there should be an actual post with an actual quote."

Of course it's not about having eternal life. Why would anyone think that? I think you should go to Cinderella's forum; maybe some there will take you seriously.

Why should anyone take any of your posts seriously when dodging questions repeatedly seems to be your forte?

It looks like everyone is going to experience God's discipline of physical death.

Wow, did you misunderstand how God's discipline of physical death is WAY different than God's plan for our life to end. But that's just one of a very many things that are misunderstood.

However, the really sad thing is how those who have no understanding of God's Word think that making fun of what His Word teaches is cool.

I gave Scripture for what I post. 1 Cor 11:30 and 1 John 5:16.

But, go ahead and make fun of God's discipline. Oh, and while you're at it, review Psa 38, just for a laugh.

 

[EmSw]

My new man and my old man still exist in me and therefore I refer to both as "me" when I talk about my life.

I could just play games and say that the old man isn't me and that I don't sin now since I am the new creation. That is true of course - but it would be playing games with words and wouldn't allow for the overall truth concerning life to come out.

Maybe in your circles born again men do not admit to doing some things out of the old man and not all things out of the new man. But I'm an honest man. Nuff said about that lest I end up flaming someone here.

Of course they do.

My old man was crucified with Christ. All of my sins - past, present, and future - were laid on Him.

Which is it Marvin, is your old man crucified, or still living within you? If he is crucified, which by the way means he is dead, why do you give in and serve a dead man? How can a dead man do anything, as you Reformed like to say?

Of course you and a few others here don't believe that so we have a big communications problem to begin with.

Because there have been intermittent episodes of yielding to the old man who still resides in me. In that sense, I suppose, you could say that occasionally I am a slave to sin.

You won't admit to the same thing?

Of course I do. Why would you ask such a things?

What's with you?

I have never said I don't sin. I have no idea where you were digging to get that.

All this goes to show that even if we crucify the old man (the flesh), that is, lay it aside, we can resurrect it, that is, put it on again. We all have the innate propensity to give in to temptations and give birth to sin. We are told time and again to overcome.

Romans 12:21
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Jesus told the churches in Revelation to overcome for a reason. To overcome is to conquer, prevail, and get the victory. Not only are we to lay aside evil, but also to conquer it and get the victory.

Old man crucified; new man raised; wood, hay, stubble; crowns, precious jewels - all that Bible stuff. Get with the program and systematically include it all in your theology and not just pick and choose to make your points.

My gospel is very clear to me. I include all of the scriptures in my thinking and thus know exactly what I believe and why.

I have shown you in a very brief answer earlier that I have included Romans 6:6 in my understanding.

Have you included John 5:24 in yours?

Of course, John 5:24 is a precious verse. There's a phrase Jesus uses in this verse which is very important. That phrase is 'he who hears my word'. Is just hearing His word enough? James has something to say about this.

James 1
21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

So, eternal life is not for those who just hear His words, but those who are hearers and DOERS! Notice James also says to lay aside all filthiness and wickedness and receive with meekness the word, WHICH IS ABLE TO SAVE YOUR SOULS. So laying aside all filthiness is to lay aside the old man.

I haven't missed it.

I know exactly who to serve. I strive to serve the one who saved me and who will never leave me nor forsake me.

I don't know exactly who you strive to serve since you don't have such a savior by your own admission.

You've been digging in the dung pile again, I see. Didn't you know you will only find dung by which you accuse others in a dung pile?

Apparently you are a better man than anyone I know in life. I know of no one I have met in over 70 years who has reached such a state of perfection so as to say that they never sow to the flesh.

I'll leave you now since I'm feeling so convicted by you ---- NOT!

You people are amazing.

Where did I say I am perfect? That's more dung heaved at God's child, Marvin. Please don't accuse others; accusing others is an act of Satan.

 

[EmSw]

I asked this:
"Who would that be, specifically? If there is any here who has said that, there should be an actual post with an actual quote."

Why should anyone take any of your posts seriously when dodging questions repeatedly seems to be your forte?


Wow, did you misunderstand how God's discipline of physical death is WAY different than God's plan for our life to end. But that's just one of a very many things that are misunderstood.

However, the really sad thing is how those who have no understanding of God's Word think that making fun of what His Word teaches is cool.

I gave Scripture for what I post. 1 Cor 11:30 and 1 John 5:16.

But, go ahead and make fun of God's discipline. Oh, and while you're at it, review Psa 38, just for a laugh.

You gave absolutely no scripture stating outer darkness is the darkness of a brightly-lit wedding hall. You have just told me and others a lie.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Which is it Marvin, is your old man crucified, or still living within you? If he is crucified, which by the way means he is dead, why do you give in and serve a dead man? How can a dead man do anything, as you Reformed like to say?

I have never said I don't sin. I have no idea where you were digging to get that.

All this goes to show that even if we crucify the old man (the flesh), that is, lay it aside, we can resurrect it, that is, put it on again. We all have the innate propensity to give in to temptations and give birth to sin. We are told time and again to overcome.

Romans 12:21
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Jesus told the churches in Revelation to overcome for a reason. To overcome is to conquer, prevail, and get the victory. Not only are we to lay aside evil, but also to conquer it and get the victory.

Of course, John 5:24 is a precious verse. There's a phrase Jesus uses in this verse which is very important. That phrase is 'he who hears my word'. Is just hearing His word enough? James has something to say about this.

James 1
21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

So, eternal life is not for those who just hear His words, but those who are hearers and DOERS! Notice James also says to lay aside all filthiness and wickedness and receive with meekness the word, WHICH IS ABLE TO SAVE YOUR SOULS. So laying aside all filthiness is to lay aside the old man.

You've been digging in the dung pile again, I see. Didn't you know you will only find dung by which you accuse others in a dung pile?

Where did I say I am perfect? That's more dung heaved at God's child, Marvin. Please don't accuse others; accusing others is an act of Satan.

I never accused you of saying that you never sin.

This entire post shows that you don't even know what your beef is with anything I've said on this subject.

I sin and you sin. I resurrect, as it were, the old man. You do the same.

We both strive to keep from doing that and to put on the new man instead.

I believe that I am saved even when I fail to do so and that I have an advocate with God who intercedes for me when I fail so that I will never come into condemnation.

You do not.

Hopefully that will be it with you even if you post more non-sense on this - which will be very likely.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You gave absolutely no scripture stating outer darkness is the darkness of a brightly-lit wedding hall. You have just told me and others a lie.

I'm truly sorry for your failure to grasp any of my words. I NEVER said the "outer darkness" is the darkness of a brightly-lit wedding hall.

In fact, there can be NO SUCH THING as "the darkness of a brightly-lit wedding hall". That isn't even possible. There isn't anything that is dark in a brightly-lit wedding hall.

But, just go outside at night and look around. That's where the outer darkness is. OUTSIDE the wedding hall. Which was brightly lit. Simple.

Such a statement clearly proves that my post wasn't even read.

Here is what I wast talking about. The outer darkness is OUTSIDE the brightly-lit wedding hall. Where the wedding feast took place at night. So, being OUTSIDE the wedding hall AT NIGHT, it would clearly be the "outer darkness".

The attempt to twist my words into nonsense doesn't help your side of things at all.

However, to address your claim that I never used Scripture: I cited historical context to EXPLAIN the Scripture.

Did you know that in Jesus' day, wedding feasts took place at night? That helps us understand what Jesus was saying to people who already knew that piece of information.

You're welcome.

 

[EmSw]

I'm truly sorry for your failure to grasp any of my words. I NEVER said the "outer darkness" is the darkness of a brightly-lit wedding hall.

In fact, there can be NO SUCH THING as "the darkness of a brightly-lit wedding hall". That isn't even possible. There isn't anything that is dark in a brightly-lit wedding hall.

But, just go outside at night and look around. That's where the outer darkness is. OUTSIDE the wedding hall. Which was brightly lit. Simple.

Again, I ask you where that is found in scripture. You have failed a number of times to show us.

And by the way, they are YOUR WORDS, and not the words of the Bible.

Such a statement clearly proves that my post wasn't even read.

Here is what I wast talking about. The outer darkness is OUTSIDE the brightly-lit wedding hall. Where the wedding feast took place at night. So, being OUTSIDE the wedding hall AT NIGHT, it would clearly be the "outer darkness".

The attempt to twist my words into nonsense doesn't help your side of things at all.

However, to address your claim that I never used Scripture: I cited historical context to EXPLAIN the Scripture.

Did you know that in Jesus' day, wedding feasts took place at night? That helps us understand what Jesus was saying to people who already knew that piece of information.

You're welcome.

Were people actually tied hand and foot and cast into the outer darkness of a wedding hall? Perhaps you can show us in a historical context that actually happened. Were they cast into a furnace of fire in the outer darkness?

I'm sorry, I am not buying YOUR words, and no one else either.

 

[EmSw]

I never accused you of saying that you never sin.

This entire post shows that you don't even know what your beef is with anything I've said on this subject.

I sin and you sin. I resurrect, as it were, the old man. You do the same.

We both strive to keep from doing that and to put on the new man instead.

I believe that I am saved even when I fail to do so and that I have an advocate with God who intercedes for me when I fail so that I will never come into condemnation.

You do not.

Hopefully that will be it with you even if you post more non-sense on this - which will be very likely.

I have never said you weren't saved if you fail and obey the old man. What I have said is that if you continue to live to the old man, you will die. You can't keep lying if you repent and ask for forgiveness. If you continue to lie, the old man is your master, not Jesus.

Jesus is the author of salvation to all who obey Him, and not the sons of disobedience.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, I ask you where that is found in scripture. You have failed a number of times to show us.

I am sorry that historical perspective has no place in your viewpoints.

And by the way, they are YOUR WORDS, and not the words of the Bible.

So is the word "Trinity". Your point?

Were people actually tied hand and foot and cast into the outer darkness of a wedding hall?

What a silly question. Jesus was telling a parable, to make a point. Why would anyone take His story and try to literalize it??

I'm sorry, I am not buying YOUR words, and no one else either.

Oh, you took a poll, huh?

 

[EmSw]

I am sorry that historical perspective has no place in your viewpoints.

They did not tie guests hand and foot and cast them into outer darkness at weddings. This is not a historical view, it's a free-grace fairy tale.

So is the word "Trinity". Your point?

Casting people into outer darkness at a wedding is not a church doctrine.

What a silly question. Jesus was telling a parable, to make a point. Why would anyone take His story and try to literalize it??

Yet you take outer darkness as a literal interpretation. You need to stop, and take your own advice.

Oh, you took a poll, huh?

We don't need polls on fairy tales. No one, and I mean no one believes your story. Be on your way.[/QUOTE]

 

[sdowney717]

The new man made in the image of Christ according to the Spirit in righteousness and holiness does not sin. In fact it is perfected and has eternal life, but the old man of the flesh and the mind does sin and is perishing.

2 Corinthians 4:16
[ Seeing the Invisible ] Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

Why would God renew the inner man everyday if it was going to destruction? The body is dead due to sin, but the spirit is alive due to righteousness.

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

Scripture says you are forgiven all trespasses, of course this only if your a new creature in Christ. It does say all trespasses!
And you are made alive together with Him, so then you can know that you have eternal life, because He lives, you will live as well.

 

[sdowney717]

Hebrews 12, to what have we come?
The Glorious Company
18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

We have come to Mount Zion, wherein live the spirits of just men made perfect, so not physical, not the body, not perfected flesh, perfect in spirit, no sins in this place.

In that it says 'we have come', we have therefore come now to that place a habitation with God in the Spirit, we are as it says in Ephesians 2

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

 

[Grafted In]

No

 

[FreeGrace2]

They did not tie guests hand and foot and cast them into outer darkness at weddings. This is not a historical view, it's a free-grace fairy tale.

I never said that's what anyone did. I only pointed out what Jesus SAID. My point was that the 'outer darkness' can be easily explained as to WHEN the wedding banquet occurred (at night) and when someone was SENT OUT, they would then be OUTSIDE the brightly lit banquet hall, and...wait for it...in the outer darkness.

Casting people into outer darkness at a wedding is not a church doctrine.

Whoever said it was? It was Jesus' story while teaching about how one potential reward can be lost at the wedding supper of the Lamb. By being unprepared.

Since you disagree, please explain exactly what Jesus was teaching.

Yet you take outer darkness as a literal interpretation.

Because it fits perfectly. Unlike your unsubstantiated opinion.

We don't need polls on fairy tales. No one, and I mean no one believes your story. Be on your way.

[/QUOTE]
So, you DID conduct a poll in order to know that. So, how many people did you actually poll? I mean, besides yourself.

 

[EmSw]

I never said that's what anyone did. I only pointed out what Jesus SAID. My point was that the 'outer darkness' can be easily explained as to WHEN the wedding banquet occurred (at night) and when someone was SENT OUT, they would then be OUTSIDE the brightly lit banquet hall, and...wait for it...in the outer darkness.

I would like to hear your strange interpretation of the 'outer darkness' in the following passages:

Matthew 25
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed.
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.
27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest.
28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.
30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Well FG2, we have no wedding, no brightly lit wedding hall. Please explain the outer darkness in verse 30. Just where did the servant's Lord cast this wicked man?

Whoever said it was? It was Jesus' story while teaching about how one potential reward can be lost at the wedding supper of the Lamb. By being unprepared.

Since you disagree, please explain exactly what Jesus was teaching.

Jesus wasn't teaching about losing a potential reward. He was explaining the kingdom of heaven and those cast out of the kingdom on account of wickedness.

Because it fits perfectly. Unlike your unsubstantiated opinion.

So, you DID conduct a poll in order to know that. So, how many people did you actually poll? I mean, besides yourself.

I've already told you, a fairy tale does not need a poll. People know what fairy tales are without a poll.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I would like to hear your strange interpretation of the 'outer darkness' in the following passages:

Matthew 25:24-30

Well FG2, we have no wedding, no brightly lit wedding hall. Please explain the outer darkness in verse 30.

Once again, the phrase 'outer darkness' occurs only 3 times in Matt: here, and 8:12 and 22:13. In 8:12, Jesus had just noted the "great faith" of a Gentile Centurion, and compared it to the much less faith of Jews. Then He spoke of a literal future time when some of the Jews (sons of the kingdom) will be sent out of the feast, which He contrasts with the Centurion's great faith.

To be sent out into the "outer darkness" in all 3 passages refers to being excluded from the joys of ruling in the kingdom.

We also find the phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in these 3 same passages where "outer darkness" occurs. This phrase represents intense grief over opportunities lost.

Now, I've answered all the questions about the 2 phrases. Which is not what this thread is about.

So, let's get back to the OP of the thread, shall we?

Just where did the servant's Lord cast this wicked man?

There is no reason to take any parable literally. And, the Bible doesn't say WHERE in the parable the servant's Lord sent or cast the wicked man. It doesn't matter.

But those who won't accept all the clear verses about eternal security will not be satisfied and will continue to perseverate over parables, trying to force them to be speaking of saved people being cast into hell.

There isn't a single verse in Scripture that warns us in plain words that one's salvation can be lost. Regardless of wording. None. Zero. Nada.

However, eternal security is clearly stated in many verses.

Now, per the OP, please just answer the question: can a Christian go to hell?

And provide a clear verse that makes such a claim.

 

[sdowney717]

We are born again of incorruptible seed. So a person who is BORN OF GOD is going to be living in the family of God with Him in heaven.
That is the gospel that was preached to you.

God accomplished our obedience through the power of His Spirit at work in us.

1 Peter 1
The Enduring Word
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because

“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”

Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

God has caused us to be begotten again and only according to HIS abundant mercy.

A Heavenly Inheritance
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.