Can Christians go to hell?

[sdowney717]

The only persons who die in their sins are the ones who do not believe Jesus is the Christ of God.

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Matthew 26:28
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Acts 10:43
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Remission of sins is kind of like remission of cancer ... you know. Humility goes a long way.

 

[sdowney717]

We are sanctified, made holy to God by faith in Christ.
Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

 

[sdowney717]

1 Peter 2:23-25New King James Version (NKJV)
23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Having died to sins, means sin no longer has any death power over Christians. Christians are dead to sin. Christians live to righteousness.
Christ put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself, yet there remain people convinced their sins still have the second death power over them.
Well perhaps they do many sins and still have not been born of God, so they really are unsaved frauds, hypocrites, false brethren.

Hebrews 9:25-28New King James Version (NKJV)
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

For Christ's believers in Him, the sin problem has been put away as to regarding their salvation. They eagerly await His returning.
Sin is no longer any barrier between God and His people, though their sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow.

Hebrews 8:11-13New King James Version (NKJV)
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know theLord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My clear point is sleep means various things, has different meanings depending on the context of the verse.

Which is EXACTLY my point!! Paul spoke of being "asleep" in reference to the lifestyle of unbelievers in 1 Thess 5:6-7. There is no reason to assume that being "asleep" in v.10 refers any further back than to those 2 verses, which happen to be IMMEDIATE CONTEXT. Using "sleep" back in ch 4 as a euphemysm for physical death as context for being "asleep" in 5:10 is not scholarly.

That is why I 'jumped around' into various verses.

It was done to AVOID the obvious meaning of being "asleep" in v.10, because it refutes your theories.

One doesn't need to "jump around" into various verses to maintain context.

In fact, the very act of jumping around to various verses clearly avoids context.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In that description of unsaved man, it says they are lovers of pleasure and not lovers of God, so then they will certainly not love Christ's appearing, so you can not use that description as an example of someone's conditional salvation as in they lost it.

This clearly says the crown of righteousness is for ALL who have loved His appearing, who would be His people that He saved from their sins.

2 Timothy 4:8
Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Who are those who love Jesus?

Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

So those who truly love his appearing are those who keep his commandments.

Also, 2 Timothy 3:1-9 says they have a form of Godliness and they are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of God. So it does say they are lovers of God. They just love pleasure (sin) more.


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[FreeGrace2]

Well, verse 27 in John chapter 10 says my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they FOLLOW me. So those that cannot be snatched out of the LORD's hand are sheep that FOLLOW (obey) Jesus.

How about accepting ALL that Jesus has said about the subject. Back in v.9 He says how one is saved: by "entering through the Door", the Door being Jesus Himself. This is a metaphor or figure of speech for believing in Him.

In John 5:24 Jesus is clear about how to HAVE eternal life; by believing. So John 10:28 is directly related to John 5:24. In 10:28 Jesus says He gives eternal life to THEM. And since John 5:24 is in the Bible, we KNOW who the THEM are; believers.

So, all who have believed HAVE eternal life, which is why Jesus went on in 10:28 to promise that "they WILL NEVER PERISH". That statement is true for everyone who HAS eternal life.

Now, for those who continue to believe that salvation can be lost, where is the REQUIRED verse that clearly and plainly states how eternal life is taken away?

If there were any, they would have been shared by now.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I mean honestly. It is absolutely ridiculous to argue that Jesus would cover a believer's willful present and future unrepentant sin (like lying or lusting after a woman) done against Him.

Such a viewpoint comes only from those who have no clue as to what grace even means.

As to how many sins Christ paid for on the cross, consider these verses:
Heb 9:26 - Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Then in 10:1-2 the writer compares the Mosaic sacrifices with Christ's:
1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.

10:10 - And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

10:14 - because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

There is no excuse for those who are Christians to think that Christ didn't die for ALL sins.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Actually, it was not immoral for Christ to be our Passover Lamb. Christ did not break any Laws when He died upon the cross for our sins. On the contrary, He fulfilled the Law by His death. Christ's sacrifice does not give a believer a free pass to ignore morality or God's goodness in regards to our right standing with Him. If that was the case, then everybody would be saved. I mean, seriously. Just stop. Think about morality. Think about how you know about morality. Is not God good?...

Your standard of "morality" most likely isn't even close to God's perfect standard. And everyone breaks His standards all the time. I don't mean every nanosecond, but regularly and frequently. Our bodies are called corrupt in the Bible. We are not perfect, nor can we achieve that status in our present corrupt bodies.

But your real problem is not with your own personal definition of 'morality', but how much you don't understand about God's grace, which covers ALL sins.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jason0047 said:
Oh, and we are never taught in the Scriptures to think that we can sin. The Scriptures teach we are to have the mind of Christ or God (And His mind is always about doing that which is good and righteous - and never to sin)
Marvin Knox said: ↑
Who said otherwise?

Free Grace did here:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...nce-and-for-all.7920118/page-17#post-69210951...

Here is exactly what I said, and the question that you FAILED to answer:

"Why? Because Christ died for ALL sins. Why do you think Christ died for sins, if sins will keep one out of heaven? How does that make any sense? It doesn't. Just because you're offended by the grace of God doesn't mean His grace is cancelled by your offendedness."

Again I ask: why do you think Christ died for sins, if sins will keep one out of heaven?

The continued dodging of this question reveals the inherent weakness of your position.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Also, "believing" is more than just believing in the person of Jesus and what He has done for us, but "believing" also includes believing everything that He taught and commanded of us, too. For Jesus says, "why do you call me Lord, Lord, if you do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46).
...

Knowledge of what the Bible actually says is quite helpful, so I'll help you out here.

John 20:31 - But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

That's how one is saved and has eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

For when does a belief alone ever determine if a person is good morally?

It doesn't and "being good morally" is impossible, as the Mosaic Law proves. But I suppose familiarity with Gal 3 hasn't happened yet. So read it. All of it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Christians today are gonna wonder why they will be thrust out of His Kingdom.

Jesus says "not everyone who says unto me Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but He that does the will of the Father."

What is the will of God (or the will of the Father)? 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says the will of God is our Sancification or holiness.

For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14)....

You've missed the whole point of Matt 7:21-23. That crowd were basing their entrance into the kingdom on what they DID, like yourself, not on what they believed. There is no indication that they ever believed in Christ for salvation. Instead, they thought they could impress Him by doing what they did in His Name. Which didn't work out so good, huh.

That passage refutes your notions about moral goodness.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No. Again, you still don't get it. Let me ask you: Why are unbelievers not worthy of being forgiven of their sin (even though God died for their sin)?

Your question here proves that you still don't get it. No one is worthy of being forgiven of sin. How absurd!!

The reason you still don't get it is because of your total failure to understand God's grace. We are forgiven on the basis of grace, and saved on the basis of grace. But you don't get that. You still think morality is a requirement for entrance into heaven. Yeah, well tell that to the crowd in Matt 7:21-23. On second thought, never mind; they were already told by Christ Himself.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1 Peter 2:23-25New King James Version (NKJV)
23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Having died to sins, means sin no longer has any death power over Christians. Christians are dead to sin. Christians live to righteousness.
Christ put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself, yet there remain people convinced their sins still have the second death power over them.
Well perhaps they do many sins and still have not been born of God, so they really are unsaved frauds, hypocrites, false brethren.

Hebrews 9:25-28New King James Version (NKJV)
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

For Christ's believers in Him, the sin problem has been put away as to regarding their salvation. They eagerly await His returning.
Sin is no longer any barrier between God and His people, though their sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow.

Hebrews 8:11-13New King James Version (NKJV)
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know theLord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 8:12 is talking about past sin forgiven by God for a believer. New sins need to confessed and forsaken (1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, Proverbs 28:13, Matthew 12:41 cf. Jonah 3:6-10). Otherwise they are no longer having a Godly sorrow over their sin like an unbeliever. However, for the believer: Godly sorrow leads to repentance (See 2 Corinthians 7:10).

As for the red highlighted words you quoted in Hebrews 9:28: Well, it does not mean what you think it does. Here is what it is says according to the NLT.

"He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him."

In other words, Jesus is returning not to take care of man's redemption again. But He will return again at the Pre-Trib Rapture so as to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him. But do you have enough oil in your lamp so as to shine forth light within darkness to make it to the wedding ceremony on time?

As for Hebrews 9:26 and the beginning part of Hebrews 9:28 (that I did not quote):

This is talking about how Jesus paid the sins for all mankind (except those who worship the beast) so as to offer all men the free gift of salvation. But this does not mean all men will be saved, though. It also does not mean all believers will be saved, either. For how can names be blotted out of the book of life if salvation is as permanent as you say?

As for 1 Peter 2:24 that says,

"that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed."

It is saying that we (believers) having died to sins (past tense) in the fact that sin does not control us anymore are being encouraged by Peter here that we might continue to live for righteousness in this life (i.e. stay the course or fight the good fight of the faith).

As for what Jesus says in Matthew 7 that we will know false prophets (i.e. false believers or wolves in sheep's clothing) by their fruit. Fruits are defined as deeds in the Bible. Compare Matthew 3:8 and Acts 26:20. For they say the same thing except the word "fruit" is in one and the word "works" is in the other.

John 3:20 says everyone who does evil hates the light.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Oh, and Matthew 7 cannot support the condemnation of justification of works. First, James says we are justified by works and not by faith only (James 2:24). Second, the one instance in Matthew 7 that loosely appears to condemn works does not really flat out say it was their good works whereby the Lord was condemning them. They simply said they did good works and Jesus says they worked iniquity or lawlessness. Meaning, they did evil in addition to doing good. They were luke warm believers. But the rest of Matthew 7 clearly condemns the idea of Belief Alone-ism. Jesus says we will know false prophets or believers by their fruits (deeds). Jesus says not everyone who says unto Him, Lord, Lord, will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven but he that does the will of the Father. The will of the Father or the will of God is our Sanctification or holiness (1 Thessalonians 4:3). Jesus also says he that does not do what he says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As for being worthy so as to be forgiven:

Jesus says,

28 "... A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him."

(Matthew 21:28-32).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As for a believer living good morally:

"he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1).

3 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men,being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were [in the past] some of you..." (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

As for Galatians 3:

It is talking about Initial Salvation or ultimate salvation.

How so?

"Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

And "works of the Law" is in reference to the Law of Moses and "Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism." For Paul was a Pharisee, and the Pharisees desired to deceive new Christians. So this is why Paul spoke in the way that he did. But Paul was not against Godliness, though. For Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness they are proud and they know nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Is one who sins and refuses to confess their sins to God being humble? Surely not.


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[FreeGrace2]

Hebrews 8:12 is talking about past sin forgiven by God for a believer. New sins need to confessed and forsaken (1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, Proverbs 28:13, Matthew 12:41 cf. Jonah 3:6-10). Otherwise they are no longer having a Godly sorrow over their sin like an unbeliever that leads to true repentance (See 2 Corinthians 7:10).

Why was post #248 missed? Or maybe just dodged?

here it is again:

As to how many sins Christ paid for on the cross, consider these verses:
Heb 9:26 - Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Then in 10:1-2 the writer compares the Mosaic sacrifices with Christ's:
1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.

10:10 - And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

10:14 - because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

There is no excuse for those who are Christians to think that Christ didn't die for ALL sins.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh, and Matthew 7 cannot support the condemnation of justification of works. First, James says we are justified by works and not by faith only (James 2:24).

Please stop pitting Scripture against Scripture. The contexts are totally different. James was clearly and obviously talking about being justified in the eyes of others. Just reading 2:18 shows that. One cannot demonstrate their faith without deeds.

Second, the one instance in Matthew 7 that loosely appears to condemn works does not really flat out say it was their good works whereby the Lord was condemning them.

Missing the whole point. Their condemnation was based on their wrong thinking that they could enter the kingdom based on works.

They simply said they did good works and Jesus says they worked iniquity or lawlessness.

Notice that Jesus never refuted what they said they did. And note what they did. But without having believed and saved, their works meant nothing.

Meaning, they did evil in addition to doing good.

Nope. Doesn't mean that at all. And no one has shown that is the meaning.

They were luke warm believers.

OK, prove from the passage that they were believers. I mean, with clear statements, either from them or from the Lord that they had believed.