Can Christians be Demonized?

[mortsmune]

Yes that's the one!



I have no idea, but I cannot subscribe the notion that God's children can be touched by the wicked one.

That is the problem. It is not really what is true that is important. It is what you and others like you want to believe. You say "I have no idea." You ought to think about that and get an idea. Why would you, as a follower of Jesus, want to make someone worse off?

Oh come on! Why? Because you don't want it to?

No because it must agree with all the other parts of the Bible.

No because as I said before, the devil can influence and tempt us but he cannot possess us. So both scriptures are correct.

I never said anything about "possess." That is your word. The whole point is that this verse indicates that the devil can touch us.

Do you realise that that was before the HOly Spirit was poured out?

Of course I realize that, but the "Lord's Prayer" is for all time and all people. People say the Lord's Prayer every day all around the world. Why would one phrase only apply to before the coming of the Holy Spirit and not the rest of it? Jesus did not say, "Oh, after the Holy Spirit comes, you should leave out that part about the evil one, because you won't need it then." That is very shoddy biblical exegesis. There is no verse that says that the Holy Spirit automatically makes us invulnerable to the enemy.

As above. Do you realise the power and authority we have over Demons? If, all we must do is submit to God and the enemy will flee then that kind makes the enemy mighty powerless dont you think? I think people Give the devil more credit than he's worth!

Of course I understand the power and authority we have over demons. I have cast thousands of them out of people (all Christians, by the way). How many demons have you cast out?

It does not say that "all we must do is submit to God and the enemy will flee." It says submit to God (which means obey Him) and resist the devil. Resist (Grk: anthistemi) means to fight back, go on the counter-attack. It does not mean just ignore him.

Yes and you don't think that both those scriptures can harmonise?

Of course I do. That was my whole point. Read what I said again--the whole thing. Read the actual words, not what you think I said.

We shouldn't be keeping ourselves anyway - that's why we sin. If we keep ourselves, we fail and we sin.

But the verse (the one you referred to) says we are to keep ourselves. That is the point of the verse. We are to be on our guard. That's what "keep" means. The fact that we fail and sin is the whole problem.

Look I'm not disputing the fact that satan can have influence over the flesh and tempt and deceive us. What I'm saying is that Satan cannot possess or dwell inside a believer. He cannot ATTACH himself - if you will.

There is no biblical reason to believe that. That is wishful thinking.

Gal 5:1 Christ has set us free so that we may enjoy the benefits of freedom. So keep on standing firm in it, and stop attaching yourselves to the yoke of slavery again. (ISV--emphasis mine)

We have to actively work on being and staying free. It is not automatic.

We are in the world but we are not of the world.

Quite frankly, I appreciate what you're saying but you don't understand the dangers and the implications of what you're saying. Becaus when you start preaching about how powerful Satan is and how we must be careful of him etc etc - you put undue power and credit onto him that doesn't belong there. People who are weak in faith need to know who they are in Christ - not who satan is! People who are weak in faith need for you to tell them "Greater is he that's living in me than he that is in the world". Take note how often the bible warns us of the devil himself - not very often!! You will notice that God puts more emphasis on His own authority to protect than he does on the Devil. Why give the Devil more credit than he deserves?

I am talking about Satan because so many, like you, are ignoring him. In the meantime, the churches are filled with people who are horribly bound and are not free because they don't know how to be free, and no one is telling them.

I am fully aware of how much more powerful God is than the devil. I am more aware of that than you are. Only those who have faced the demonic hosts head on and have won victory, as I have done multitudes of times, can really have any idea of just how wonderful and powerful the name of Jesus Christ is.

You are living in a make-believe Pollyanna world. Open your eyes. Wake up and smell the coffee!

 

[Joy]

Amen brother

Living in the real world shows what you talk about is real.

 

[Discipleship]

I am fully aware of how much more powerful God is than the devil. I am more aware of that than you are. Only those who have faced the demonic hosts head on and have won victory, as I have done multitudes of times, can really have any idea of just how wonderful and powerful the name of Jesus Christ is.

You are living in a make-believe Pollyanna world. Open your eyes. Wake up and smell the coffee!

Everyone has faced the power of the devil head on. In fact, every moment of your life is a fight against the devil, is it not?

So, because you don't agree with her you have to attack her personal character? That's a great way of getting your point across.... I would suggest that you not criticize and that you display a Christian attitude towards her as criticizing her and telling her she has a distorted view of reality will only make her more ardent in rejecting your beliefs.

 

[Discipleship]

I think in order for this discussion to be meaningful you must lay out exactly what "demonized" means because otherwise people will just be arguing their own personal definition of the word.

 

[Joy]

Everyone has faced the power of the devil head on. In fact, every moment of your life is a fight against the devil, is it not?

So, because you don't agree with her you have to attack her personal character? That's a great way of getting your point across.... I would suggest that you not criticize and that you display a Christian attitude towards her as criticizing her and telling her she has a distorted view of reality will only make her more ardent in rejecting your beliefs.

I believe it's the other way round? In my reading this and other posts from this sister gves the impression she is the only person who can be right in her views which can come across as not very understanding because such people do not give others the same freedom to share their convictions.

 

[non-religious]

Resist the devil and he shall flee...... I don't think it's healthy to go down this road of being overly occupied with what he's up too. Just resist him and he will leave, simple..

Of course I appreciate that nothing is ever that simple, but if God's word says that, then who am I too disagree...

 

[mortsmune]

Everyone has faced the power of the devil head on. In fact, every moment of your life is a fight against the devil, is it not?

So, because you don't agree with her you have to attack her personal character? That's a great way of getting your point across.... I would suggest that you not criticize and that you display a Christian attitude towards her as criticizing her and telling her she has a distorted view of reality will only make her more ardent in rejecting your beliefs.

That was not meant as a personal attack. It is an observation. Living in a make-believe world where all is well is just that, a make-believe world.

I have had to deal with too many people in my 45 years as a believer who prove that that kind of world does not exist in this life. It was not a personal attack. It was an observation of a kind of attitude. She is by no means the only one who has that attitude. Those words are meant for everyone who reads them! It is time for the Church to wake up and smell the coffee.

People don't believe Christians can't have demons not because it is what the Bible says or because experience shows that to be the fact. They believe it solely because that is what they want to believe!

 

[mortsmune]

I think in order for this discussion to be meaningful you must lay out exactly what "demonized" means because otherwise people will just be arguing their own personal definition of the word.

Good idea. Here is a repost of what I posted on another thread:

Possessed or Demonized?


The subjects of demons, demonization, and deliverance have been shrouded in mystery and ignorance for centuries. The mere mention of them elicits both fear and fascination all at the same time. I believe that the unfortunate use of the word "possessed" in conjunction with these subjects has brought to the discussion of these matters a great deal of confusion and misunderstanding.

There are a number of reasons why I do not think the words "possessed" or "possession," when referring to demons, are neither helpful nor entirely biblically accurate. The first reason is that these words are surrounded by a cultural and historical mystique that has developed from misunderstanding and ignorance of the subject of demons in general, and demonization and deliverance more specifically.

Aside from the basic meaning of the words themselves, there exists a deeper connotation to them that is definitely not an accurate picture of demons and the nature of demonization. Because of historical and cultural ignorance, confusion, misunderstanding and sometimes just plain ridiculous caricature (greatly enhanced by the often ignorant stupidity of Hollywood), the terms "demon-possessed" and "demon possession" elicit thoughts and images in most people’s minds that are very inaccurate.

Specifically, that picture would be of persons who are absolutely insane, out of control, terribly evil, bereft of all humanity and sensibility. It also often carries with it the images of filthiness and violence, often accompanied by such Hollywood-inspired occurrences as levitation, evil smells, blood dripping down walls, heads turning round and round, eyes changing colors, and green slime everywhere. While I will admit that there are extreme cases of bondage where many of these elements are present, by far most demonic bondage is not anywhere near this obvious and grotesque. Indeed, the demonic realm’s greatest tools in their unceasing war against God and His people are secrecy, stealth, and deceit. If every demonized person exhibited such obvious manifestations as listed above, everyone would know there were demons at work, and Christians would be much more likely to do something about it.

Another objection I have to the use of the words "possessed" and "possession" in this context is that the actual meaning of the words is linguistically inaccurate. While I will admit that there are a number of authoritative reference works in the field of biblical analysis and Greek study use the words "possessed" and "possession" in this manner, I respectfully submit that they are not accurate in this respect. While the authors of those works were very learned and well studied men, they were subject to the same cultural and historical influences as everyone else. The terms have been used for centuries and simply pop out of most people’s mouths (or pens) quite automatically when discussing the topic of demons.

However, the ancient Greeks did not have the same cultural and historical heritage that modern society has. When they used the words "daimonizomai" (be demonized) and "echein daimonia" (to have demons), the English concept of "possession" and all the connotations that went along with it did not exist. It is also probably true that while the authors of such works as Strong’s Concordance, Vine’s Expository Dictionary, and Thayer’s Greek Lexicon were great scholars, they were likely fairly inexperienced with the area of demons and casting them out.

Thus, I do not believe that the Bible teaches us that to have a demon or to be demonized means to be "possessed" by that demon, absolutely owned by that demon, or completely controlled by that demon. In the Gospels we see a spectrum of levels of bondage. We see on the one hand the Gadarene demoniac, who was actually pretty closed to being "possessed," judging by the behavior he demonstrated. On the other hand we have the man in the synagogue from whom Jesus cast a demon. Because of what is known about Jewish culture and religious practices, it is most likely that no one suspected that he had demons. If they had, it is extremely unlikely that he would have been allowed in the synagogue at all. Most likely he probably seemed like a relatively normal person to those around him.

If anyone finds all of this unconvincing, remember that possessing something does not necessarily mean legal ownership. If I buy a television set and pay cash for it, I possess it, and it belongs to me legally. It is mine. However, if I were to break into a store and steal a television set, I might possess it, but I would not legally own it, even though I might possess it for a long time, perhaps the rest of my life. That still does not make it legal.

And so it is with demons and their hosts. An unsaved person they might legally own; a Believer they might illegally "have" or "possess" in that sense. However, I still prefer not to use the term "possess."

 

[Discipleship]

That was not meant as a personal attack. It is an observation. Living in a make-believe world where all is well is just that, a make-believe world.

I have had to deal with too many people in my 45 years as a believer who prove that that kind of world does not exist in this life. It was not a personal attack. It was an observation of a kind of attitude. She is by no means the only one who has that attitude. Those words are meant for everyone who reads them! It is time for the Church to wake up and smell the coffee.

People don't believe Christians can't have demons not because it is what the Bible says or because experience shows that to be the fact. They believe it solely because that is what they want to believe!

OK I can appreciate this. Sorry to call you out on that, but it seemed to me as a personal attack. I guess that now you have explained yourself, it has become more clear. I hope she didn't view that as something against her personally and that she wasn't hurt.

I hope that by providing a definition of the word "demonized," the discussion will be furthered.

I certainly do have my opinions on this issue and if anyone would be interested, I would be happy to talk with them and discuss the matter privately.

 

[Discipleship]

Thanks to mortsmune for providing the definition and for clearing up any confusion that may have existed!
God bless you all!!

 

[JimB]

Good idea. Here is a repost of what I posted on another thread:

Possessed or Demonized?


The subjects of demons, demonization, and deliverance have been shrouded in mystery and ignorance for centuries. The mere mention of them elicits both fear and fascination all at the same time. I believe that the unfortunate use of the word "possessed" in conjunction with these subjects has brought to the discussion of these matters a great deal of confusion and misunderstanding.

There are a number of reasons why I do not think the words "possessed" or "possession," when referring to demons, are neither helpful nor entirely biblically accurate. The first reason is that these words are surrounded by a cultural and historical mystique that has developed from misunderstanding and ignorance of the subject of demons in general, and demonization and deliverance more specifically.

Aside from the basic meaning of the words themselves, there exists a deeper connotation to them that is definitely not an accurate picture of demons and the nature of demonization. Because of historical and cultural ignorance, confusion, misunderstanding and sometimes just plain ridiculous caricature (greatly enhanced by the often ignorant stupidity of Hollywood), the terms "demon-possessed" and "demon possession" elicit thoughts and images in most people’s minds that are very inaccurate.

Specifically, that picture would be of persons who are absolutely insane, out of control, terribly evil, bereft of all humanity and sensibility. It also often carries with it the images of filthiness and violence, often accompanied by such Hollywood-inspired occurrences as levitation, evil smells, blood dripping down walls, heads turning round and round, eyes changing colors, and green slime everywhere. While I will admit that there are extreme cases of bondage where many of these elements are present, by far most demonic bondage is not anywhere near this obvious and grotesque. Indeed, the demonic realm’s greatest tools in their unceasing war against God and His people are secrecy, stealth, and deceit. If every demonized person exhibited such obvious manifestations as listed above, everyone would know there were demons at work, and Christians would be much more likely to do something about it.

Another objection I have to the use of the words "possessed" and "possession" in this context is that the actual meaning of the words is linguistically inaccurate. While I will admit that there are a number of authoritative reference works in the field of biblical analysis and Greek study use the words "possessed" and "possession" in this manner, I respectfully submit that they are not accurate in this respect. While the authors of those works were very learned and well studied men, they were subject to the same cultural and historical influences as everyone else. The terms have been used for centuries and simply pop out of most people’s mouths (or pens) quite automatically when discussing the topic of demons.

However, the ancient Greeks did not have the same cultural and historical heritage that modern society has. When they used the words "daimonizomai" (be demonized) and "echein daimonia" (to have demons), the English concept of "possession" and all the connotations that went along with it did not exist. It is also probably true that while the authors of such works as Strong’s Concordance, Vine’s Expository Dictionary, and Thayer’s Greek Lexicon were great scholars, they were likely fairly inexperienced with the area of demons and casting them out.

Thus, I do not believe that the Bible teaches us that to have a demon or to be demonized means to be "possessed" by that demon, absolutely owned by that demon, or completely controlled by that demon. In the Gospels we see a spectrum of levels of bondage. We see on the one hand the Gadarene demoniac, who was actually pretty closed to being "possessed," judging by the behavior he demonstrated. On the other hand we have the man in the synagogue from whom Jesus cast a demon. Because of what is known about Jewish culture and religious practices, it is most likely that no one suspected that he had demons. If they had, it is extremely unlikely that he would have been allowed in the synagogue at all. Most likely he probably seemed like a relatively normal person to those around him.

If anyone finds all of this unconvincing, remember that possessing something does not necessarily mean legal ownership. If I buy a television set and pay cash for it, I possess it, and it belongs to me legally. It is mine. However, if I were to break into a store and steal a television set, I might possess it, but I would not legally own it, even though I might possess it for a long time, perhaps the rest of my life. That still does not make it legal.

And so it is with demons and their hosts. An unsaved person they might legally own; a Believer they might illegally "have" or "possess" in that sense. However, I still prefer not to use the term "possess."

You said, “I prefer not to use the the term ‘possess.’”

Me too. It only breeds confusion. The apostles would not have understood our views on “demon possession”, IMO, not having such a term (or notion) in their first-century language.

Excellent post, BTW.

~Jim

 

[mortsmune]

You said, “I prefer not to use the the term ‘possess.’”

Me too. It only breeds confusion. The apostles would not have understood our views on “demon possession”, IMO, not having such a term (or notion) in their first-century language.

Excellent post, BTW.

~Jim

I have checked the translation of the term daimonizomai that translated "possessed" in our English translations in Bbles in a number of languages. So far the English one is the only one that uses the term "possessed." The others all have a term equivalent to "demonized." This includes the Spanish, Portuguese, Georgian, and the Vulgate (uses "having demons). "Demon possession" seems to be mainly an English concept.

 

[Trish1947]

I find it interesting that Jesus told the Pharasees, which on the surface looked like pretty good fella's, on the surface, except for not understanding anything that Jesus said, "You are "of" your Father, the devil, and the lusts of your father, that will ye do." Isn't this speaking of a spiritual condition? They from their heart wanted the Son of God dead. How can we think that this was ownership or sonship of the flesh, and not the spirit? Basicly, he called them sons of the devil.

 

[ILoveJesusChrist]

Hi,

I'm sorry I havent replied, I've been moving and stuff

One of the gifts of the spirit that the Lord chooses to operate through me at times is "decerning of spirits".

Yes, I was baptized in the Holy spirit 20 years ago.
I do pray in toungs, and Jesus has told me to put the armor of God on !

I don't know what has happened to me but it is defently not physo etc. It's a demonic attack or a weapon or evil spirit etc.

It's like the devil is hounding me all the time !The problem is always there, and it seems to be an internal attack in me.

also,

I know I'm born again, Jesus said to me "My son".
I know that I've been baptized in the spirit. That
happened over 20 years ago.

But do I know I'm filled with the spirit ?
Well, thats where my issue/question is ?

When I got attacked, I had sinned. It's like I was
getting warnings. I should have imedently repented
but I was struggling with a sin.

When I sinned one day, I heard a voice comming from inside me. It said "Depart from me ye that work iniquity". It spooked me/ shook me up, ua.. I think
it would have spooked anyone, the world started looking at me differently, I started seeing in the spirit relm way to much, spirit things were hapening to me.
"No I don't do drugs", but I did sin.

Storms were in my mind, I say flashes of light and screams from evil spirits. They told me that I had
taken one step two many. That they had snared my soul. That they were now the captin of my soul.

They told me that because I had now been disconetcted from God that I would be dying in
3 days (that was on the comming Sunday) soon,
Then I heard people screams like from the pits of hell
all the time this happened day and night this continued for three days.

Then, early Sunday Morning around 6:00am I felt
and saw, a warm clear gloden glow move over my mind. I heard a loving voice that said to me.

"I rebuke your sin, I'll fix this personaly"

Then I started seeing clouds swerling in my mind
like God was cleaning me etc. I saw my head turning around from left to right, I had a big brused black eye
on my right eye.

Then I saw a "Thing" it was a dark cloud as it spoke to the Lord I saw like an thin energy ribbin around it
that spiked into points of blue & white light, it said to
the Lord.

More like a defying statment it said...

"I diden't think you could inject yourself into somebody that's not ready"

I heard it say that, then I said to the Lord.

"Lord, I'm going to forget that" (What it had said)

the Lord said "No, don't forget that."

Then I started feeling power go through my body,
then lots, lots of power I felt like I was going to leave my body, it was wonderfull, any more and I would have went with the Lord, I thought he might take me.

I got up out of bed, started prasing the Lord, I felt his
hands holding my hands, he said to me.

"Watch where you put your feet my son"

He held my hands for a while, I prayed, I felt wonderfull after that, for four hours Oh, I was
like a little kid. It was wonderfull...

Then, 4 hours I heard a voice, loud in my mind.
it called my first name loud. "Joe" ! It would continue,
sometimes saying my name very, very loud at me.

At first, I thought it was the Lord's voice, but a few days latter, I found out that it was not from God.

It's always pulling my bottom eyelids tight, I somtimes hear a voice that says "Now Joe". It tells me that it's
waiting for me to die so it can drag my soul to hell !

So, you asked me, if I think I'm possesed.

Well, here's what just happened, at this moment.

A co-worker just called me and told me that he was
having a very bad day, when I get around people,
I see there pain, I see the general condition of mans
sin working in there life, I have empthy in my heart for them, and I know that if I can just point them to Jesus and get them to understand that he is trying
to get through to them, that he died for them, that
eventhough they are always going to be things that cause pain in this world, He is the answer and victory
in ALL things.

I know, that no weapon formed aginsed me will prosper. However, I think one has defently been formed againsted me.

Please pray for me.

Thank you for caring.

 

[Joy]

Thank you so much for this which clearly shows that it is possible for Christians to be oppressed.

 

[Godzchild]

Resist the devil and he shall flee...... I don't think it's healthy to go down this road of being overly occupied with what he's up too. Just resist him and he will leave, simple..

Of course I appreciate that nothing is ever that simple, but if God's word says that, then who am I too disagree...

And how does one 'resist the devil'? Simply by submitting to God! Been there - doing that!

Instead of spreading fear why not spread God around a bit.

The Devil is NOTHING!! Don't give him ANYTHING! Fix your eyes on JESUS ONLY!

 

[Godzchild]

That is the problem. It is not really what is true that is important. It is what you and others like you want to believe. You say "I have no idea." You ought to think about that and get an idea. Why would you, as a follower of Jesus, want to make someone worse off?

Umm no! I don't know because I don't understand the connection YOUR putting on it.

No because it must agree with all the other parts of the Bible.

And it does.

never said anything about "possess." That is your word. The whole point is that this verse indicates that the devil can touch us.

Even though the bible CLEARLY tells us he can't? Sorry, I'm going to believe Jesus before I believe you.

Of course I realize that, but the "Lord's Prayer" is for all time and all people. People say the Lord's Prayer every day all around the world.

Well I don't.

Why would one phrase only apply to before the coming of the Holy Spirit and not the rest of it?

Because before the outpouring one didn't have the power to and authority of Jesus to tread on serpents.

Jesus did not say, "Oh, after the Holy Spirit comes, you should leave out that part about the evil one, because you won't need it then."

But he did say "You shall pick up serpents and they SHALL not harm you". Do you remember that the devil came to Adam and Eve as a serpent?

That is very shoddy biblical exegesis. There is no verse that says that the Holy Spirit automatically makes us invulnerable to the enemy.

I've just showed you! Don't get confused with possession and temptation now.

Of course I understand the power and authority we have over demons. I have cast thousands of them out of people (all Christians, by the way). How many demons have you cast out?

Demons cannot reside in Christians - so whatever it was that you cast out - it was not a demon.

It does not say that "all we must do is submit to God and the enemy will flee." It says submit to God (which means obey Him) and resist the devil. Resist (Grk: anthistemi) means to fight back, go on the counter-attack. It does not mean just ignore him.

Oh for goodness sake! Why are you giving the devil so much power?? Come on!!!

But the verse (the one you referred to) says we are to keep ourselves. That is the point of the verse. We are to be on our guard. That's what "keep" means. The fact that we fail and sin is the whole problem.

Wow! Good luck with that 'keeping yourself' part there friend - you're going to need it. I, however, give myself over to my Lord to keep - he's better at it than I am.

There is no biblical reason to believe that. That is wishful thinking.

Gal 5:1 Christ has set us free so that we may enjoy the benefits of freedom. So keep on standing firm in it, and stop attaching yourselves to the yoke of slavery again. (ISV--emphasis mine)

We have to actively work on being and staying free. It is not automatic.

When you believe in Jesus then yes...it's automatic!

I am talking about Satan because so many, like you, are ignoring him. In the meantime, the churches are filled with people who are horribly bound and are not free because they don't know how to be free, and no one is telling them.

They are bound because people are giving him too much power. If they are taught, (like I had to taught MYSELF) to ignore the moron and start paying more attention to Jesus then they will realise how free they really are. Satan is a liar - you can choose to be caught up in the lies or you can choose Jesus! Pretty simple! Why complicate matter?

I am fully aware of how much more powerful God is than the devil. I am more aware of that than you are.

Really? That's a very bold statement - care to back that up with some evidence there?

Only those who have faced the demonic hosts head on and have won victory, as I have done multitudes of times, can really have any idea of just how wonderful and powerful the name of Jesus Christ is.

Wow you seem very sure of yourself don't you. "Pride comes before a fall".

You are living in a make-believe Pollyanna world. Open your eyes. Wake up and smell the coffee!

My friend - you have no idea!!!

 

[Discipleship]

[/b]

They are bound because people are giving him too much power. If they are taught, (like I had to taught MYSELF) to ignore the moron and start paying more attention to Jesus then they will realise how free they really are. Satan is a liar - you can choose to be caught up in the lies or you can choose Jesus! Pretty simple! Why complicate matter?

Left to one's own judgement and one's own decision, one will "choose" the devil because of our corrupted and fallen human nature. I would suggest Luther's Bondage of the Will

 

[Godzchild]

Left to one's own judgement and one's own decision, one will "choose" the devil because of our corrupted and fallen human nature. I would suggest Luther's Bondage of the Will

But we are not alone! That's the point!

 

[Questioning Christian]

Why is it that some people enjoy talking more about the devil than they do Jesus?

If Satan is so powerful, and he can do so much evil to you without your permission, then why don't you go serve him?