O.F.F. said:
YOU are NOT only a professing "Christian" you are a Mason, and YOU know darn well I was talking about the that part that applies to ALL MASONS, which is "they all convey the same idea—that of the symbolism of the Divine Will of God revealed to man." So YOU have AGAIN been PROVEN to be a LIAR.
You've proven nothing with this. Have you forgotten how you just interpreted it for us in your previous post? There you said, in your "Fact One":
O.F.F. said:
"Christian" Masons oppose the truth because of the Masonic view that, whether it be the Gospels to the Christian, the Pentateuch to the Israelite, the Koran to the Muslim man, or the Vedas to the Brahman, they all convey the same idea—that of the symbolism of the Divine Will of God revealed to man.
In or out of the lodge, it's all the same, Michael. You said it yourself: the MASONIC VIEW on the matter is, the divine will is seen by the Christian to be the Gospels (though I would disagree with you on that point, since it is the WHOLE Bible, and not just the Gospels); the divine will is seen by the Brahmin to be the Vedas; the divine will is seen by the Muslim to be the Koran; and the divine will is seen by the Israelite to be the Pentateuch or Torah.
Once again, the only proven liar around here is you. And you make a poor one at best, since the old saying holds true, that to be a good liar, you need a good memory. Your memory failed you on this one, because you even forgot from one post to the next what you had already said.
[QUOTEP=O.F.F.]Another crock of BULL! Again, YOU know darn well I was talking about the that part that applies to ALL MASONS, which is ALL concepts of "God" Masonically represent the Great Architect of the Universe (GAOTU). So YOU have been CAUGHT telling ANOTHER LIE.[/quote]
It's not a lie, Michael, it is your mistaken notion about the term. Masonry is apprehended and applied individually, not collectively. The collective stuff is what is done by religions, that's one of the distinctives of Masonry that makes it NOT a religion, despite the lie that so many antimasons tell to the contrary.
Besides, you've already been shown, that the Christian use of "God" is no different. To those of other religions it can mean their god, just the same as GAOTU. Yet I don't see you doing all the flip-flops and stretches to vilify THAT word, despite the principle being exactly the same principle you accuse: a generic word used by Christians that can potentially mean any other god to any person of another religion.
So until you can reconcile that problem for us, you are inconsistent on this point. To be consistent, you need to either drop the argument, or add to your repertoire an argument vilifying Christians who use the generic word "God."
O.F.F. said:
There may very well be professing "Christian" Masons, Muslim Masons, as well as Hindu and Buddhists Masons, etc. But YOU know darn well, there is NO SUCH THING as a "Christian," Islamic, Zoroastrian, or Hindu, etc. Grand Lodge.
BRILLIANT! Thanks, Michael, for refuting what I never said in the first place. And SINCE there is NO SUCH THING as these lodges you described, and SINCE THERE ARE Christian Masons, Muslim Masons, etc., then it stands to reason that the term is perceived individually and not collectively, just as I stated. Keep up the good work, your own words are proving to be the best refutation of your own claims.
O.F.F. said:
There are many Grand Lodges from many countries around the world, which is how charters to function as such are written (i.e. the United Grand Lodge of England, the Grand Lodge of South Carolina, the Grand Lodge of India, the Grand Lodge of Indiana, the Grand Lodge of Turkey, etc.). But there is ONLY ONE fraternity called Freemasonry. It's principles, by which EVERY Mason vows, apply to ALL MASONS, regardless of their religious persuasion or their country of origin. A Mason who claims to be a "Christian" cannot escape from the principles of Freemasonry, just because some of them don't suit "his" religious beliefs
.
I for one see no Masonic principle that says, "If a Muslim Mason living halfway around the world chooses to believe in Allah and the Koran, you as a Christian Mason are bound by HIS beliefs rather than your own. This is just pure nonsense on your part.
And the sheer beauty of watching you go into conniptions over this point after some of your earlier arguments, is interesting too. After all, it wasn't that many posts ago, your argument went quite to the contrary. In fact, I remember laughing at the time I saw it, but said nothing, because I immediately knew I would be seeing the diametric opposite of it before very long and could use it to better advantage. So I now call it to your attention:
The only place Masonic ritual makes these specific references, is where the Bible is opened for each degree, only in US lodges where the predominant religion of the country is Christian, and the predominant VSL is the Holy Bible. (Christianforums, "Can a Christian be a Freemason?" Post #949)
The VSL (i.e. Volume of Sacred Law) in Freemasonry is that book deemed "sacred" by the predominant religion of the country in which a Grand Lodge presides. (Post #953)
All you have shown comes from Masonic rituals in US lodges -- a Christian country -- but you CANNOT use that to try to make a CLAIM that it exist in every ritual in ALL of Masonry!!!! (Post #961)
That third one was a riot, too, considering how many times you and your buddy W.D. have bent over backwards INSISTING that "America is NOT a Christian country!" That one had me LM euphemizing BO for sure.
But what you make clear on this point more than anything else is, just how far you will go to pursue your chosen course of illogic, backed up with double standard arguments.
In that argument, I was pointing out for you, from the Grand Lodge of India website, discussions in which an Indian Mason was referring to the Bible as the "Great Light of Masonry," and insisting that every degree in Masonry was founded upon the Bible.
YOUR RESPONSE? "But what you have shown only occurs in a Christian country."
In this argument, I have pointed out that the principles of Masonry, particularly the ones you selectively chose for your "Fact One" and "Fact Two," are matters that are individually apprehended rather than collectively.
YOUR RESPONSE? "The principles of Masonry apply to ALL Masons, regardless of their religion or their country of origin."
Now THERE'S a double standard for you if I ever saw one!
"Oh, but that's only true in U.S. Lodges, a Christian country."
"Oh, but that has to be true EVERYWHERE, and REGARDLESS of national origin."
Do us a favor, Michael, and when you get this nonsense sorted out to where it has any kind of logical consistency to it, get back with us and let us know which way you decided you'd rather have the twig bent, so we can "govern ourselves accordingly," okay?
O.F.F. said:
As long as you remain a Mason, and "profess" to be a Christian, you stand in compromise to our faith, opposing the truth and you are a disgrace as a pastor.
I haven't compromised anything. You don't know what you're talking about, and you never even met me. You are making subjective value claims based on minimal input. Some pastor somewhere along the line stepped on your toes a little too hard and you still hold a grudge. Go find him and spew all your hatefulness to him and get it out of your system for good before it becomes the end of you.
O.F.F. said:
The ONLY way to separate yourself from Masonic principles is to separate yourself from Freemasonry, entirely.
Masonry's principles come straight from the Bible. Even the Grand Lodge of India website declares that the Bible is the great light of Masonry, contrary to your fabricated idea that it says anything different there than it does in our lodges:
It is interesting to note that in every Degree of Freemasonry the words and incidents associated with them are found in the bible which is considered to be the Volume of the Sacred Law by Freemasons, though when any person who does not have faith in the Bible takes his Oath of Secrecy on the Volume considered by him to be sacred, and an oath taken on it makes it binding upon him.
The Building of the Holy Temple is recorded in great detail in the Volume of the Sacred Law, i.e. in the Old Testament of the Bible. As I have said above every Degree in Freemasonry is derived from some part of the Bible. It includes the New Testament also. ("Some Thoughts on Freemasonry," By W. Bro. Rev. P. A. KRISHNASWAMI, M.A. P.A.G. Chap., District Grand Secretary, District Grand Lodge of Bengal)
Last time I checked, it was not considered a good thing for a Christian to separate himself from biblical principles. In fact, it works quite the opposite, as I recall. I have to figure adhering to biblical principles is a good thing for a Christian man, whether in or outside the lodge.