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Calvinist Views on women preaching,leading and Homosexuality?

Discussion in 'Semper Reformanda' started by Koontzy, Oct 25, 2006.

  1. Koontzy

    Koontzy KJV Only Bible Believer

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    doesnt the Presbyterian church ordain openly gay men? what about women? what are calvinist views on this? also doesnt a women run the presbyterian church now? just wondering because the calvinism is started to get to me for some reason, I find myself listening alot to Macarthur and R.C sproul instead of Stanley and other baptists....
     
  2. arunma

    arunma Flaming Calvinist

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    My church is Reformed Baptist rather than Presbyterian. We don't ordain women as pastors or elders, though women do just about anything else that isn't specifically prohibited in the Bible. As for gay men, we recognize that to be openly gay is to actively embrace a sinful lifestyle. So no, my church would not ordain a gay man.

    I'm guessing that Presbyterians will have almost identical views on these issues. But keep in mind that there are two major Presbyterian denominations in America, the PCA and the PCUSA. The PCA is orthodox in doctrine, the PCUSA tends to be more lax on such things. In fact, I think the PCUSA recently endorsed homosexuality as permissible.
     
  3. HiredGoon

    HiredGoon Old School Presbyterian

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    What Presbyterian church? You have to realize there are many Presbyterian denominations in the U.S. and around the world. These Presbyterian denominations range from theologically Liberal, to more Evangelical or Fundamentalist, to conservative Reformed. The more liberal ones ordain female elders, while the moderate and conservative ones do not. In the more liberal Presbyterian denomination in the U.S. (the Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A) there have been some sessions/congregations pushing the gay issue, and although there has been some debate, as far as I know the general assembly has not yet approved the ordination of openly gay men and women.
     
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  4. calmcoolandelected

    calmcoolandelected Veteran

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    My denom. (PCA-Presbyterian Church in America) does not ordain women or homosexuals.

    CC&E
     
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  5. bradfordl

    bradfordl Veteran

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    Presbyterianism describes a biblical form of government. There are denominations that utilize this form that have long ago departed from orthodoxy. There are some teetering on the edge, and others firmly planted in the truth. But the foundations of presbyterianism are rooted in the restorations of the reformation. Ordaining women or sodomites would be a clear sign of apostasy to me.
     
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  6. arunma

    arunma Flaming Calvinist

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    I agree, especially on the issue of ordaining homosexuals. It's very unfortunate that any church in modern times would ordain a person who openly approves of a sinful lifestyle. This seems not very different from ordaining an open adulter (as a matter of fact, the Episcopal Church's famous "gay bishop" divorced his wife in order to live with his current male companion).
     
  7. heymikey80

    heymikey80 Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

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    No.
    The largest, most liberal denomination does.
    Even there many churches within the denomination will not call women as pastors.
    To the right of them, no.
    Following the Scriptures conservative calvinists generally will not call women to teach or be an authority over men. Elders are described typically as men. However, in some denominations emerging from the forced vows of the larger, more liberal denomination, you will find churches who will continue to honor the vows their predecessors made in the ordination of specific women as elders. Vow-taking is a serious matter to most Presbyterians (cf. Westminster Confession).
    In the largest, most liberal denomination, yes. In more conservative denominations, it's prohibited.
    Most of your questions would be roughly the equivalent of asking a Southern Baptist about what Baptists believe. Given Tony Campolo and a variety of liberal Baptists, it's not possible to pin down either Baptists or Presbyterians on exactly what "presbyterians" believe.
     
  8. beachbumis

    beachbumis New Member

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    I am an elder at a Presbyterian Church. We have a femal Pastor that is very good. The spirit is in her. I have witnessed her struggle with a sermon only to find out on Sunday that it fit in to an event that was unknown at the time.

    Michael
     
  9. bradfordl

    bradfordl Veteran

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    You are an elder in an apostate denomination. Leave it if you are a Christian. Any "spirit" that would move a woman to teach in Church is not the Spirit of the Lord. Why would God contradict Himself? Coincidents are not always "signs from God', especially when they come in a form in conflict with plain scripture.
     
  10. CardinalBaseball

    CardinalBaseball Cardinals > Cubs

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    The PCA doesn't. The PCUSA does. When you refer to the Presbyterian church you should state which one.
     
  11. Wrigley

    Wrigley Senior Veteran

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    Yeah. Much like screen names should clearly advertise which baseball teams one supports.

    This is very hard for me to say, as much as I can't stand the arrogance of the Cardinals. Congradulations on a world series win.
     
  12. Nadiine

    Nadiine New Member

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    I haven't posted on CF for awhile now, so bear with me, I'm a little rusty!! :help:

    I have done an indepth study on this issue of women Pastors (that is- the Shepherd of an entire congregation which namely includes her own husband, if she has one), and I do not see how anyone can find a female Shepherd biblical as per 1 Tim 2:11-14) along with other biblical principles taught.
    I see females teaching and prophesying scripturally, but not leading and overseeing an entire congregation - namely one that includes her own husband.

    *Note - I'm not going into salvational assessments on the issue, just giving perspectives as to why I find it unbiblical.

    Aspects: if you look back at the original curses God put upon humanity/creation (Gen. 3:16), you'll find that God has given MAN spiritual authority & headship over the woman, never the other way around. She is under subjection to him.
    This is the key factor in proving that a woman is NOT to hold this seat of authority; namely if her husband is of the same congregation; she is then usurping his headship over her by RULING OVER HIM spiritually as HIS elder!
    1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

    Additionally, we have ZERO examples of female Shepherds in the NT as a guide. It's not enough to simply deny verses mean something, we should also seek direct SUPPORTS and EXAMPLES of these things being carried out or practiced. (you'll see the same lack of biblical support for GAY Clergy! - not only is it directly condemned, there is no SUPPORT for it anywhere else).
    In fact, Paul clearly tells a woman in church to be 'silent and let her husband teach her at home'... a FAR cry from PASTORING it with him sitting under her teaching!

    My question is this (and asked as a woman):
    WHY ARE WOMEN SO BENT TO FILL THE SEAT OF THE only OFFICE GOD DOES NOT ALLOW US?
    Why are they not complacent to serve as general teachers over a women's bible study? Kids in Sunday School, etc.?
    Acts 18:26And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
    Priscilla engaged in teaching Apollos (allbeit w/ her husband). As I see it, she was allowed to teach but was not Shepherding a congregation (holding a place of authority over him).

    Women are heavily and mightily used by the Lord and can hold any position they'de like EXCEPT Shepherd of a flock (that is, to hold spiritual authority/headship over men/her own husband).

    Does this not sound like Eve's original temptation? "You can eat of ANY fruit in the garden, but you may not eat of this one: the Tree of Life".
    What fruit did she have to have? THE TREE OF LIFE - the ONLY ONE that was forbidden. SAME TEMPTATION, eons later.

    Conclusion: Just because it looks as if something 'supernaturally' fell into place with this female pastor, and people even convert to Christ thru her, it does NOT mean she's 'annointed' by God to Pastor, or that God condones it.
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Phl/Phl001.html#15
    Paul mentions in Phil 1 the different and wrong motives people can have in preaching Christ.
    People CAN wrongly preach (even in sin), and get positive results.

    Many people come to the Lord thru TV evangelists that we KNOW are false - charlatans... it merely means that God can use anyone or anything in darkness OR light.
    It doesn't necessarily put God's seal of genuine authenticity on them as to alter the Bible's teaching.

    Even Satan's army has powers that are mistaken for God's power. WE KNOW THE FALSE FROM TRUE BY GOD'S WRITTEN WORD which is the final authority of what God ultimately accepts or not.

    By seeing some "positive" and even Godly things coming about from an unappointed or false teacher, we can't just assert that the person is of God or appointed by God to do His service! This is sadly why so many FALSE teachers are accepted today. :sigh:
     
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  13. Elderone

    Elderone Senior Member

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    Could not have said it better...........or even as well. :amen:
     
  14. heymikey80

    heymikey80 Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

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    I have little doubt women have the abilities to move and do by the Spirit what men have been appointed to do there. Deborah was appointed judge -- elder -- in Israel to the embarrassment of the men of her day.

    But I would urge that proper convergences are the work of the Spirit, but not the approval of the Spirit with all that we do. The doctrine of Total Inability dictates that even where the Spirit works, there is error. And yet the Spirit of God strikes a true blow with a broken stick.

    Still, even now: I fear more for the Gospel in these churches than anything else, even women in the pulpits. If we're distracted from this to consider women in pulpits to be "fighting doctrines", we may demote the Gospel under more minor issues of doctrine (important as they may be).

    The proper role of the church is in preaching the Gospel, week in, week out; the worship of God; the fellowship of the Spirit; and the sacraments properly applied and regulated.
     
  15. bradfordl

    bradfordl Veteran

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    Very well said. The first people I heard about Jesus from were drug-users full of debauchery and decadence. Would that prove its OK to act that way?

    2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
     
  16. Elderone

    Elderone Senior Member

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    If I understand the quote it is saying - women pastors are a problem but we have other more important things to attend to, so we won't worry about them.

    And how are the people in the pews going to have any confidence in what is being taught, if the denominations conduct shows they either don't understand God's word or are ignoring what it plainly teaches?

    Could this be why the PC (USA) has lost almost 2 million members since 1965? I firmly believe the liberalization and apostasy of the PC(USA) is the reason.
     
  17. HiredGoon

    HiredGoon Old School Presbyterian

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    It should be noted that while known as the most Liberal, the PC(USA) is not the only Presbyterian denomination which allows female teaching elders/pastors. The Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC) and the Cumberland Presbyterian Church (the first presbyterian denomination to ordain a woman, in 1889) do as well.
     
  18. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    With all due to respect, let us set denominational beliefs aside. Whether your Presbeterian, Baptist, Evangelical, Fundamentalist, whatever, the question in mind is on women preaching. Let us not forget that preaching in a church setting is tied into the N.T. doctrine of Bishops. (1 Tim. 3:1) All the requirements are laid forth there.

    But what most seem to forget is that a priest is the same thing as a bishop. And according to God's word, the office of priest was ordained by God for Aaron and his sons. (Ex. 28:1)

    "And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons."

    But what I'm most amazed at is the fact that a great many sincere Christians seem to forget what is said in Ex. 29:9.

    "And thou shalt gird them with girdles, Aaron and his sons, and put the bonnets on them: and the priest's office shall be theirs for a perpetual statute: and thou shalt consecrate Aaron and his sons."

    The office of priest (pastor-bishop) is ordained by God to be for men, and it was to be a perpetual office. Which means that the office of priest-pastor is to be for men until the day Christ returns.

    Now I take the Bible seriously. And the one thing I will not do is compromise the word of God, for in my opinion, if you'll compromise His word, you'll compromise Him. And to me, the Bible is God's word for all of mankind and it is the final authority in all matters. So what you have to ask yourself is this, do I place more stock in what my denomination says, with its confessions and creeds, etc, or am I going to go by what said through the prophets and apostles as recorded in the Bible.

    Just some food for thought.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  19. edie19

    edie19 Legend Supporter

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    Nadiine - keep posting like that and we'll never let you leave again:thumbsup:

    As to the OP - I grew up PCUSA, loved the reformed doctrine (I learned the doctrines of grace there) however as an adult couldn't reconcile their liberal theology (and often corresponding liberal social stances - i.e. abortion, gay marriage) with Scripture. I'm pretty sure that the church I grew up in has a female pastor now - she might be wonderful, but her holding that office is definitely against Scripture. Hence, I'm a Reformed Baptist now (couldn't reconcile infant baptism either, but that's off the OP).

    edie
     
  20. Calvinist Dark Lord

    Calvinist Dark Lord Regular Member

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    That is just a bit misleading. First off, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church (maybe you meant Second Cumberland Presbyterian Church?) is Presbyterian in Government only. It does not hold to Reformed Theology.

    As a member of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, i cannot speak for the church, the General Assembly speaks for the church. What is factual is that there have been four female Teaching Elders in the EPC. Two were pastors of congregations, one was a Missionary, the other was labouring out of bounds ~she was a chaplain at an Adventist Hospital~.

    Presently there are no active female Teaching Elders in the EPC. One has left the denomination. The other three are retired.

    As the denomination ages (it is relatively new, being founded in 1981), it has been compelled to deal with many issues. Woman's ordination is among those issues. While theoretically possible for a woman to be called to the office of Teaching Elder, It is the Presbytery who places the call into the hands of a candidate. It is highly unlikely that another woman will be called to pastor a particular congregation in the EPC.

    That said, the EPC does have active female Ruling Elders. The individual congregation is free to select it's own leadership. At it's founding in 1995, my own congregation had two female Ruling Elders on it's session. Neither one serves at present. The last female Ruling Elder in my congregation was granted the position of 'Elder Emeritus' (see the EPC Book of Government for further details), and the congregational by-laws were changed so that the congregation will restrict the office to men.

    Our experience is not unique. It is my opinion that female Ruling and Teaching elders will become extinct in the denomination, and eventually the General Assembly will forbid them.


     
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