Calvinism: Is the bible lying or is God powerless to save everyone?

[ToBeLoved]

Let me just kind of piggy back onto the thoughts you had come to mind when I said that God was involved in the things leading up to the fall in a "zillion" ways.

You seemed to think that I must have meant over a billions year or so as the evolutionist would see things to say such a thing as that God had done over a zillion things and many more which precipitated the fall.

No offense this can be meant for people in general - but I really wonder sometimes if people who are not Reformed for want of a better word even think of God the way I do.

When you pray to God and praise Him for all that He is and what He means to you surely you include in your adoration the fact that He is omnipresent in every minute atom and every chemical molocule that flows across a synapse in your brain as even as you form words of adoration.

Surely folks don't lift up their eyes toward Heaven and really believe that He's up there beyond he Milky Way and not as much present in the air around you and in your lungs and in the stars themselves as He is on His throne.

The point is that the God of the Calvinist and the like seems to be a few zillion times bigger and more active than the God of the non-Calvinist or whatever else opposes them.

The other side seems to think that God is kind of small and sitting on a chair next to the activities on earth rather than intimately involved in everything from the activities of the smallest bacteria to the abstract thoughts and intents of the human brain.

The other side seems to think that God just sort of did a few things that we see in the first of Genesis and then took His hands off and watched to see what would happen (as per the ruminations of EmSw).

The entire witness of the scriptures including the N.T. witness speaks of a God much more involved. "In Him we live and breath and have our being" and do I not "fill the heavens and earth?" come to mind.

However the being of men and their thoughts and "fee will" choices are - they most assuredly do not exist outside of the presence of God Himself.

Theologians are supposed to take each item of information that we know about God to be true - and lug it along to considerations of other areas of inquire.

I'm just amazed considering the judgment that awaits every man for every word spoken and the much more strict judgment that is in store for those who would open their mouths or pens to teach ---- I'm amazed at the number of people who would tackle a difficult area like "soteriology" without taking along some of the most basic knowledge that a person should assimilate during Sunday school.

When discussing election or predestination or the like - I am might say something about the omnipresence of God only to have one of these shallow people say something along the lines of "huhhh?" what's that got to do with it.

My theological journey has been somewhere around 60 years now and I can't expect that everyone should have covered the same ground that I have. But I do marvel that so many people would come to these advanced notions without even first covering the basics and putting them in their theological knapsack to help with these understandings.

Well I don't know what to say to you except I don't think God micromanages the entire universe. What I mean by that is that God sets up systems, an example of this could be the earth that spins on it's axis and fully rotates every 365 days per year. Within that year, most of us experience 4 seasons; spring, summer, fall and winter. Now does God need to watch the earth so it rotates? I don't think so. Does God need to tell the plants when it is warm enough in the ground that the tulips and daffodils start to sprout? Or the leaves on the tree's start to bud with leaves or flowers? I don't think so. I think God set's up systems, very complex systems, but systems non-the-less to make things function properly. The earth stays in orbit, the moon stays in orbit and the sun doesn't kill us all by coming to close or to far away.

In the same way, I believe that He allows us some free-will. Now are we stuck with things other people have messed up, for sure we are. Like atomic bombs set-off mess up the environment, the atmosphere and the air we breathe.

But I think God is BIG enough that He doesn't need to control every little part of life to have His will done. Because what is His will besides trying to save us on this earth. Yes, He has an end plan outlined in the Bible, but even Jesus does not know the day and the hour, only the Father.

I feel Calvinists are the opposite. They see God up in heaven making sure everyone is doing x, y, and z or else His will won't be done. But I don't think God needs us to do much of anything for His will to be done. He has His Children and through us His will is done.

Now does He make non-Christians do what He wants? I'm not sure, but I don't think He does besides making sure they are not out there totally messing up His plan, which I do not believe that many people could do anyway. I think God is big enough not to have to do every small thing, because He is king.

I think the Calvinist on the other hand treats God like a micro-manager. Instead of taking responsiblity for us as representatives for Christ, they sit back and go 'If God draws them, they will come, if not He never chose them as elect anyway'. Everything God asks from us is to trust Him, in faith that His will is done. But someone who thinks that they can do nothing, ala Calvin, do nothing. Waiting for God to do something. Very happy to sit back in their recliner to wait. Wait upon God who does the doing and God who does the calling and God to figure out what they should do next. Well if we read the Bible we should know kind of what God wants. He wants us to spread the gospel, He wants us to be like His Son. Loving, humble, kind, longsuffering, patient, fair, and treating others as we want to be treated. Sorry but I do not have to sit and wait for God to tell me what He has already told me in His Word.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I've got an eye operation tomorrow which will put my computer time on hold for a few days.

You can roast me while I'm gone.

Try to ignore the cat from Texas though. I don't think he's all there.

This might be good time to just give up this mostly unproductive activity.

I'll be praying for you brother. You know you are loved, right?

 

[bottomofsandal]

I've got an eye operation tomorrow which will put my computer time on hold for a few days.

You can roast me while I'm gone.

Try to ignore the cat from Texas though. I don't think he's all there.

This might be good time to just give up this mostly unproductive activity.

Praying brother!

 

[Marvin Knox]

I've got a few minutes until it's off to the hospital. So I thought I'd just pound out a response of sorts.

Well I don't know what to say to you except I don't think God micromanages the entire universe.

I don't know about micromanagement. I just know that He made sure that we know that He is everywhere present at all times and without division. I just know that He made sure that we know that He is not far from us but that in Him we have our being. I just know that He made sure that we know that He not only does all things by Himself andfor Himself - but all things have their existence in Him.

In the same way, I believe that He allows us some free-will.

Every Calvinist (and I) believes that.

That freedom of will for fallen man is said to have been effected negatively so that certain spiritual things cannot be done. That is as expected for beings said to be spiritually dead.

But I think God is BIG enough that He doesn't need to control every little part of life to have His will done.

He is so big in fact that He fills the heavens and the earth.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "every little part of life". But I do know that my hairs and length of days are in His control,as well as the limits of my habitation. I do know that if He his not saying that I would be born and live and to whom and when.

I could fill a page with what else I do know that He controls in my life. But, just taking that brief glimpse to piggy back on, if a person decides to make a certain choice the facet that he would make that choice and indeed even be able to make that choice was and is brought to that point by (excuse the expression) a g-zillion actions by God before during and after that person makes that decision.

Because what is His will besides trying to save us on this earth.

Well - lots of thing really. But we don't need to parse concepts.

I feel Calvinists are the opposite. They see God up in heaven making sure everyone is doing x, y, and z or else His will won't be done. But I don't think God needs us to do much of anything for His will to be done.

Here is where you make your big mistake IMO.

God is not only transcendent but immanent as well. He is not only "up in Heaven". He is in the air you breath and everywhere else where you exist - in fact in Him you have your being.

That God is "up in Heaven" is about the last thing a Calvinist would say about God related to His creation.

As a matter of fact God does at least a g-zillion things every second of every day just in your body in order that His will will be done.

Now does He make non-Christians do what He wants? I'm not sure, but I don't think He does besides making sure they are not out there totally messing up His plan...............

The scripture says otherwise.

He puts prophetic statements in mouths of the likes of Caiaphas. He puts "hooks into the jaws" of world leaders and "causes them to have evil thoughts". I could go on and on on this one. But let's just say that non-Christians "could do nothing unless it is given to them by God".

which I do not believe that many people could do anyway.

Now there Calvinist and you and I are all in complete agreement.

Instead of taking responsiblity for us as representatives for Christ, they sit back and go 'If God draws them, they will come, if not He never chose them as elect anyway'. Everything God asks from us is to trust Him, in faith that His will is done. But someone who thinks that they can do nothing, ala Calvin, do nothing. Waiting for God to do something. Very happy to sit back in their recliner to wait. Wait upon God who does the doing and God who does the calling and God to figure out what they should do next. Well if we read the Bible we should know kind of what God wants. He wants us to spread the gospel, He wants us to be like His Son. Loving, humble, kind, longsuffering, patient, fair, and treating others as we want to be treated.

You lapsed into misrepresenting your Calvinist brothers and sisters.

You are so far off base here concerning what Calvinist believe and do that I won't even start to correct you.

Sorry but I do not have to sit and wait for God to tell me what He has already told me in His Word.

You are aware aren't you that much of the greatest evangelistic work in the history of the world has been done by those who believed the doctrines of grace?

You are simply misrepresenting the truth about most Calvinists.

Why when you are obviously a decent person I do not know.

That might be a good place to end it for now.

So long for now.