Calvinism, explained.

[EmSw]

Well ? Gill

Truth Challenge

Patmos, to my knowledge, WCF nor the Canons of Dort have been posted as you have. Only parts of them have been presented. Thank you for posting them.

 

[sdowney717]

The context is about being reconciled while we were yet sinners. The setting may be towards the church then, but it also applies to all people today or do you think it was only directed at them? Remember; "God so loved the WORLD...that WHOEVER believes in him...."
The collective WE that Paul is talking about here, are the unsaved, not the WE of that church. Paul uses inclusive language so as not to offend anybody. It is consistent throughout his writings. A good example is when he refers to himself as the CHIEF of sinners. 1 Tim 1:15-16



Well this sub-forum is about Soteriology, and as such I'm sure most of us understand that the church is the church not the world. The fact is that not everybody who are True Believers believe in the election or reprobation. The T.U.L.I.P. doctrines are only supported by 5 point Calvinists, so that is who I direct my comments towards. I know they're 4 point and 3 point Calvinists, but at this point I haven't seen any in this thread.
The US Paul refers to is not the church but mankind. Paul never spoke in terms that were exclusive, but always in terms that were inclusive. He was the Apostle to the Gentiles and as such he was the one that pointed out that under the New Covenant there was no such thing as Jew or Gentile man or woman slave or free. That is definitely an inclusive gospel. It is directed at all who would believe. Salvation is brought about very plainly as Paul instructs in Romans 10:9-11.



I've no problem with what the scripture says about our being God's enemies before we were saved. I also understand that we can become God's enemy after we are saved if we don't obey and practice what he told us to do regarding loving one another, including our enemies, and His.

Paul and all the apostles directed their energies to the gospel to the entire world and the edification of the saints. It was not for the world though that they labored, but for the elect who they knew would obtain salvation.
With many scriptures is election taught, for example again this Paul the APOSTLE chosen by Jesus says,
(some dispute Paul claiming he is a false apostle on these forums)

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

That the 'elect' may obtain salvation. Before anyone is saved who will be saved, God has elected them to be saved and not others.
Elect here refers to those who will be saved in due time since God has chosen them to be saved.
If such persons were 'of the world' then they would be like Cain, of the evil one, of the earth, having Satan as their father.

Apostle Peter also in 2 Peter 3 describes these same persons Paul speaks of as the beloved elect that God is not willing any should perish but that all of the 'elect' come to repentance. The destiny of the elect is that they obtain salvation in Christ.

As far as Romans 11, you can not separate out the gentiles from this chapter, since the 'elect' of both the jew and the gentile obtain salvation and none else do. Salvation has gone out to the gentile world, and most of Israel God has hardened against Christ's gospel.

4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it isof works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

Those blinded are not elect, God has put them spiritually asleep to the truth about Christ.
Romans 11 is speaking most generically about Israel versus the gentiles as people groups regarding salvation coming to the gentiles. But when their full number has been obtained (the foreknown elect of the gentiles), then God's mercy turns back to Israel and then they are saved at the end.

Regarding the blindness of the 'non elect' , who are perishing, who will never be saved, Paul teaches they are blinded in their minds by Satan, the 'god' of this world.
But for those who do become believers, God has shone His light into their hearts and so they then believe in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4New King James Version (NKJV)
The Light of Christ’s Gospel
1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart.
2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

My point is you have been indoctrinated into teachings which do not agree with the whole counsel of God.
That is something between you and the Lord, I wonder if you can believe what the scriptures say about these things.

That you made mention all people are children of God also points that out, while scripture tells us some are children of God, while others are children of Satan. Review the parable of the tares and the wheat, the sons of the kingdom, planted by the Lord, while the tares, the sons of disobedience, called by the LORD, the sons of the evil one are planted by the enemy, Satan.
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Tares Explained
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

 

[StanJ]

Paul and all the apostles directed their energies to the gospel to the entire world and the edification of the saints. It was not for the world though that they labored, but for the elect who they knew would obtain salvation.
With many scriptures is election taught, for example again this Paul the APOSTLE chosen by Jesus says,
(some dispute Paul claiming he is a false apostle on these forums)

Acts 9:15 shows what God's intent and calling was for Paul. Only Christians are the elect. Nobody is considered the elect before they are a Christian. It does not mean that they are elected for salvation. Means they are elected because of Salvation to fulfil a plan of God.

Apostle Peter also in 2 Peter 3 describes these same persons Paul speaks of as the beloved elect that God is not willing any should perish but that all of the 'elect' come to repentance. The destiny of the elect is that they obtain salvation in Christ.

What Peter was telling these people, that were anxious for Jesus's return, was that the Lord was not slack concerning his promises but that his time frame was not their time frame and that God was waiting as long as he chose to wait so that no one would perish. That does not mean that God stated that no one would perish, it means that God's desire was that no one would perish. You are inserting the word elect into a scripture where it is not contained. I'm sure you're well aware of the fact that this is contrary to sound Biblical hermeneutics. The only Destiny of the elect is to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ as Paul wrote in Romans 8:29

As far as Romans 11, you can not separate out the gentiles from this chapter, since the 'elect' of both the jew and the gentile obtain salvation and none else do. Salvation has gone out to the gentile world, and most of Israel God has hardened against Christ's gospel.
Those blinded are not elect, God has put them spiritually asleep to the truth about Christ.
Romans 11 is speaking most generically about Israel versus the gentiles as people groups regarding salvation coming to the gentiles. But when their full number has been obtained (the foreknown elect of the gentiles), then God's mercy turns back to Israel and then they are saved at the end.

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about here as nobody is trying to separate out the Gentiles from this chapter if one reads the chapter properly. Again you fail to understand what 'elect' means. It does not mean those who are destined to be saved it means those who are saved.
I really don't know what you mean by generically, but Paul is clear that he is talking about one tree and the different branches. The full number of the Gentiles will be realized when Jesus returns and after that the nation of Israel will be proselytized by the hundred and forty four thousand and will be saved.

Regarding the blindness of the 'non elect' , who are perishing, who will never be saved, Paul teaches they are blinded in their minds by Satan, the 'god' of this world. But for those who do become believers, God has shone His light into their hearts and so they then believe in Christ.

You really need to put these assertions into contacts by quoting scripture and showing how it applies. Where exactly does the scripture say the non-elect are perishing? Where exactly is the word non-elect? Really need to keep your doctrinal vernacular out of the Bible.

My point is you have been indoctrinated into teachings which do not agree with the whole counsel of God.
That is something between you and the Lord, I wonder if you can believe what the scriptures say about these things.

Well as you say this out of context I have no idea what your point refers to. It's probably best you cook what I said and then try to refute it with properly executed scripture. I have no problem believing what the scriptures say at all. I do have a problem however with many who don't know the scriptures and only parrot what they've been taught through the dogmas they support.

That you made mention all people are children of God also points that out, while scripture tells us some are children of God, while others are children of Satan. Review the parable of the tares and the wheat, the sons of the kingdom, planted by the Lord, while the tares, the sons of disobedience, called by the LORD, the sons of the evil one are planted by the enemy, Satan.

Actually the scripture tells us the following; This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

 

[GillDouglas]

Have I upset you by exposing the truth ?

No, I am not upset. But thank you for asking.

Why are you asking for the thread to be closed? Did you get more push-back than you anticipated?

Respectfully sir, this is not the case. If you feel that you've won something or proven some point, enjoy your well deserved victory.

Can defeating Calvinism ever be considered a waste of time? I think not.

After reading this I thought it would be best that the thread be closed because it seems that is has gone too far downhill. It's become Christian against Christian and defeating this would not be considered a waste of time.

 

[StanJ]

Respectfully sir, this is not the case. If you feel that you've won something or proven some point, enjoy your well deserved victory.

I've just been here for a few days so I really don't know what you mean by going downhill. I just addressed your post and you responded, to which I responded and hoped there would be a response to that, so I'm just a little surprised that now you're asking for it to be closed down. As far as victory is concerned Jesus is the only one that has the victory. As long as we are obedient to his word we all share in the victory.

 

[GillDouglas]

As long as we are obedient to his word we all share in the victory.

Then I guess you'll be the victor here for I am incapable of the perfection in which God rightly demands.

 

[StanJ]

Then I guess you'll be the victor here for I am incapable of the perfection in which God rightly demands.

Where exactly in scripture does God demand this perfection?

 

[sdowney717]

Acts 9:15 shows what God's intent and calling was for Paul. Only Christians are the elect. Nobody is considered the elect before they are a Christian. It does not mean that they are elected for salvation. Means they are elected because of Salvation to fulfil a plan of God.



What Peter was telling these people, that were anxious for Jesus's return, was that the Lord was not slack concerning his promises but that his time frame was not their time frame and that God was waiting as long as he chose to wait so that no one would perish. That does not mean that God stated that no one would perish, it means that God's desire was that no one would perish. You are inserting the word elect into a scripture where it is not contained. I'm sure you're well aware of the fact that this is contrary to sound Biblical hermeneutics. The only Destiny of the elect is to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ as Paul wrote in Romans 8:29



I'm not quite sure what you're talking about here as nobody is trying to separate out the Gentiles from this chapter if one reads the chapter properly. Again you fail to understand what 'elect' means. It does not mean those who are destined to be saved it means those who are saved.
I really don't know what you mean by generically, but Paul is clear that he is talking about one tree and the different branches. The full number of the Gentiles will be realized when Jesus returns and after that the nation of Israel will be proselytized by the hundred and forty four thousand and will be saved.



You really need to put these assertions into contacts by quoting scripture and showing how it applies. Where exactly does the scripture say the non-elect are perishing? Where exactly is the word non-elect? Really need to keep your doctrinal vernacular out of the Bible.



Well as you say this out of context I have no idea what your point refers to. It's probably best you cook what I said and then try to refute it with properly executed scripture. I have no problem believing what the scriptures say at all. I do have a problem however with many who don't know the scriptures and only parrot what they've been taught through the dogmas they support.



Actually the scripture tells us the following; This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

First off, to be elect means to be chosen of God beforehand, prior to birth.
So then your statement that you are elect after you believe is a distortion, a twisting of truth. Look up the greek meaning of elect.

Romans 9:11
(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

And the other verse already I showed you, for why Paul labors says he labors for the sake of the 'elect' that they may obtain salvation in Christ just as they have also been saved.
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

That the elect obtain salvation, means they are elect before they are saved, God has a remnant who become saved according to the 'election of grace'. They are not saved and therefore become elect.

Romans 11:5
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

 

[sdowney717]

1 Peter 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

If we are 'elect' according to God foreknowing us, then obviously, to be elect of God means that prior to our salvation, God chose us from the beginning to be saved prior to our birth. Otherwise why would Peter make use of God's foreknowledge in describing our election.
Election fits in perfectly with predestination. Someone predestined has of course, a destiny determined beforehand by a higher power that is unknown to them.

God's purpose according to election stands as a firm foundation determined before our birth, just as the scripture so says.
Romans 9:11
(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

This is because God is in control on the throne, and God has determined the end from the beginning and all the things not yet done..

 

[ToBeLoved]

Apostle Peter writes
"but is long suffering to us-ward" that is long suffering to you who are the beloved elect of God.
This letter is not written to or for the unbelieving world/
Who is Peter writing to?
The 'beloved', the elect is to whom Peter writes this epistle.

2 Peter 3:1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, .............................
2 Peter 3:17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall

Again people are mixing the people of the world into the people of God regarding the promises of God which are only for His church made up of His elect.

Peter is quite clear of this, as he spoke of us who are elect, chosen to be obedient to Jesus Christ in his first epistle, that we are set apart by God to be His own special people who have received mercy from God to be

]

I think you need to prove beloved means elect.

I think beloved means those who he loved.

Jesus does command us to love

 

[ToBeLoved]

1 Peter 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

If we are 'elect' according to God foreknowing us, then obviously, to be elect of God means that prior to our salvation, God chose us from the beginning to be saved prior to our birth. Otherwise why would Peter make use of God's foreknowledge in describing our election.
Election fits in perfectly with predestination. Someone predestined has of course, a destiny determined beforehand by a higher power that is unknown to them.

God's purpose according to election stands as a firm foundation determined before our birth, just as the scripture so says.
Romans 9:11
(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

This is because God is in control on the throne, and God has determined the end from the beginning and all the things not yet done..

Predestination makes no sense that one even needs to believe or have faith.

If one is elect irresistibly than there is a leather couch w a beer and chips watching a football game. Because there is not ONE thing an elect person needs to do.

All the verses that we must come to God in faith are bogus in that faith determines nothing. Jesus say He wants to save all, but He really doesn't.

Your version of Jesus is weak. A God who does not want what He says. A God who made a mistake. Then Jesus DID lie in your view.

What about 'who ever comes to me I will not cast away'. But no one can come to Him that wasn't elect.

Lie #2 then, right?

Then why do we even speak God's word. We should read the Bible in our closets and wait to get zapped!

You need to throw out inerrancy for your view to stand. I believe His Word is inerrant. I am a true believer

 

[EmSw]

Predestination makes no sense that one even needs to believe or have faith.

If one is elect irresistibly than there is a leather couch w a beer and chips watching a football game. Because there is not ONE thing an elect person needs to do.

All the verses that we must come to God in faith are bogus in that faith determines nothing. Jesus say He wants to save all, but He really doesn't.

Your version of Jesus is weak. A God who does not want what He says. A God who made a mistake. Then Jesus DID lie in your view.

What about 'who ever comes to me I will not cast away'. But no one can come to Him that wasn't elect.

Lie #2 then, right?

Then why do we even speak God's word. We should read the Bible in our closets and wait to get zapped!

You need to throw out inerrancy for your view to stand. I believe His Word is inerrant. I am a true believer

What many fail to realize is that those chosen are called first.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

The word for chosen in Matthew is the same word for elect. No man was called from the foundation of the world. The chosen are those who respond to and accept the call. Peter says the same thing -

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

The call comes before election.

 

[Thursday]

What many fail to realize is that those chosen are called first.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

The word for chosen in Matthew is the same word for elect. No man was called from the foundation of the world. The chosen are those who respond to and accept the call. Peter says the same thing -

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

The call comes before election.

Those who cooperate with his grace will be saved.

Good verses.

 

[sdowney717]

What many fail to realize is that those chosen are called first.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

The word for chosen in Matthew is the same word for elect. No man was called from the foundation of the world. The chosen are those who respond to and accept the call. Peter says the same thing -

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

The call comes before election.

Your twisting the scriptures. Few are chosen, Few are 'elect'
Few are chosen of God to be saved. Elect means chosen of God to be saved.
The reason some accept the call is they are chosen of God to be be saved.
Many are called but few elect. Many are called is the outward call of the gospel to the world, the few that are saved is due to them being chosen. not that they choose. the word choose and chosen are entirely different meaning.
It does not say many are called but few choose, which is your twisted version.
So do you and many others change the meaning of what God's word says by your traditions.

 

[ToBeLoved]

.
So do you and many others change the meaning of what God's word says by your traditions.

Is that what we do? What traditions of men are we following? Specifically.

That is quite a thing to say.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Your twisting the scriptures. Few are chosen, Few are 'elect'
Few are chosen of God to be saved. Elect means chosen of God to be saved.
The reason some accept the call is they are chosen of God to be be saved.
Many are called but few elect.

Because few come to Christ in faith. [emoji3]

 

[faroukfarouk]

...I am incapable of the perfection in which God rightly demands.

This is why faith in the perfect work of Christ at the Cross is sufficient, right?

 

[Patmos]

I guess there will be no reply to my last post in the 3 Question thread regarding the supposed secret meaning of plain English words.

And yes, IMO, the 'calvinists' that lurk these corridors have had their system shot to bits.

As I have posted at length, WCF and Dort is to contradictory to me. God predestines/foreordains/determines ALL things; I have quoted WCF and Dort verbatim. Yet, though ALL things are pre determined, God apparently did not determine man's sin! Am I confused ? Oh yes.

I feel the pressure from those who attack me rather than respond to my genuine concerns. I get told to 'take a rest' then 'take. a. rest'. Seems like bullying to me.

Despite that there is a thought in my mind, perhaps Dort is wrong when it says "God will not snuff out a smoking flax" ( if you want me to find the actual article, I will), maybe I am a unelected reprobate; seed cast on stony ground, to grow in faith, only to wither and fall away. The problem for me with Calvinism is it DESTROYS assurance. How can an unlearned person like me be right, understand what the Bible says, perhaps WCF 1.7 is wrong!

WCF CHAPTER 1 Part 7.
"All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, Nor alike clear unto all yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them."

Therefore, I assert, an unlearned person such as myself in the due use of ordinary means - a dictionary - may attain sufficient understanding of those things necessary for salvation.

But I am told by the 'Calvinist's' - NO

And then, AMAZING, alleluia, glory be.

I am introduced to a very learned theologian - Karl Bart.

FAN

TAS

TIC

I'll quote (just a bit), see next post.

alleluia, alleluia,alleluia amen

 

[Patmos]

"....Finally, and in accord with the Reformed tradition Barth posits a double predestination, albeit one which has been radically reconfigured. As noted, he rejects the absolute decree which divides humanity into those elect and those rejected (me too, and lots of other since Jesus Christ), and insists, rather that in the primal decree God elected himself for rejection, and in Jesus Christ bore that rejection in time, so that humanity could be elect in him. Thus Barth is adamant:

Man is not rejected. In God's eternal purpose it is God Himself who is rejected in His Son...He is rejected in order that we might not be rejected. Predestination means that from all eternity God has determined upon man's acquittal at His own cost.... We shall never find...the decreed rejection of ourselves or of any other men. This is not because we did not deserve rejection, but because God did not will it, because God willed the rejection of His Son in our stead... "

Oh the joy.

Guess what book I am going to read next! I am even going to pass by GMM4J's book ( Amazon is taking a while anyway).

 

[Patmos]

Joy to the World , the Lord is come!
Let earth receive her King;
Let every heart prepare Him room,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven, and Heaven, and nature sing.