Calvinism, explained.

[ToBeLoved]

The context though of Romans 5 is toward the church, not the unsaved world.
So when you read while we were sinners, Christ died for us, that means Christ died for His church, that is Christ died so that believers would have eternal life, not something for the world which does not believe and does not have eternal life.
Yes we were the ungodly Christ died for, the sick ones in need of a doctor, but we have the reconciliation since we believe.

Romans 5New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith Triumphs in Trouble
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Christ in Our Place
6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Problem is many conflate the world with the church, do not beleive in election or reprobation, none of the doctrines of salvation have any meaning apart from what all scripture inspired of God says about them. That God demonstrates His love towards the US is the church of believers who will be and who are in due time saved, just as Ephesians describes.

See if you can prove that we were not enemies of Christ from scripture in out unsaved state, and and also prove that we are enemies of Christ from scripture in our unsaved state. Scripturally we were enemies and all the unsaved are still enemies. Your own scripture reference in your post clearly points out we were enemies of Christ before being converted.

Anything other than scripture is hearsay evidence, only your opinion.

Can you prove God loves the saint more than a sinner? because God's perfect love is not the same as ours.

 

[Patmos]

You can draw your conclusions only by not taking into account the context of scriptures which you claim contradict the Canons. You will never defeat Calvinism,this way. Stop wasting your time

Are you deliberately missing the point ?

I can draw my own conclusions, just as any other person can draw their's, OK.

And, as shown in many of my posts. I HAVE taken scripture into account and included it in my post.

My biggest conclusion is that the Canons contradict themselves; as shown by comparing articles and posting then together (WITHOUT altering them).

I think those who call themselves Calvinist (although they back track occasionally) have defeated themselves, as shown by the rabbit trails in this thread alone. It is these people who have, and are, wasting a lot of peoples time.

Thanks

 

[sdowney717]

Can you prove God loves the saint more than a sinner? because God's perfect love is not the same as ours.

Scripture proves God's love saves some sinners, not all sinners.
Note what verse 5 says about this?
The love God had towards us, even while sinners, He made us alive.
So why does God's love not make all people alive? That is because God does not love all people.
Those whom God loves, he makes alive who are dead in traspasses.
For example God says 'Jacob I loved and Esau I hated'
This is both individual and national. Edom was completely destroyed.

Ephesians 2New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Paul says the great love God has towards us is the why we are the saved.
Friendship with the world is enmity to God and Christ.
However God so loved the world that He gave Christ so that whosoever believes will not perish.
This is God's salvation spread through out the entire world, not just for the JEWS who thought they were God's only chosen elect people.
God had a different idea, God was electing people to believe and be saved all over the earth, not just the jews.
Always there is the idea of who believes, and why do they believe in Jesus. The teaching of election answers why they believe.

Obadiah 1:10
[ Edom Mistreated His Brother ] “For violence against your brother Jacob, Shame shall cover you, And you shall be cut off forever.

Malachi 1:4
Even though Edom has said, “We have been impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places,” Thus says the Lordof hosts: “They may build, but I will throw down; They shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, And the people against whom the Lord will have indignation forever.

God does not change His mind.

 

[Job8]

Scripture proves God's love saves some sinners, not all sinners.

We are to rightly divide the Word of Truth. Therefore Scripture cannot possibly prove what you have stated, and to use this passage in this manner is to violate Bible truth. Your quotation from Ephesians is addressed to Christians and is for Christians, and speaks of God's love for those whom He has already saved by His grace.

However, it does not address God's attitude to humanity as such. For that we have many passages, not least of which is John 3:14-18, which tells us that God wants to save the world of humanity:

WAS THE BRAZEN SERPENT FOR ALL ISRAEL? YES
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

DOES WHOSOEVER MEAN ANYONE AND EVERYONE? YES
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

DOES GOD LOVE THE WORLD? YES
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

DOES GOD DESIRE TO SAVE THE WORLD? YES
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

CAN ALL BELIEVE AND ESCAPE DAMNATION? YES
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So in essence, you have made God a liar with your above allegation.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Scripture proves God's love saves some sinners, not all sinners.
Note what verse 5 says about this?
The love God had towards us, even while sinners, He made us alive.
So why does God's love not make all people alive? That is because God does not love all people.
Those whom God loves, he makes alive who are dead in traspasses.
For example God says 'Jacob I loved and Esau I hated'
This is both individual and national. Edom was completely destroyed.

Ephesians 2New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Paul says the great love God has towards us is the why we are the saved.
Friendship with the world is enmity to God and Christ.
However God so loved the world that He gave Christ so that whosoever believes will not perish.
This is God's salvation spread through out the entire world, not just for the JEWS who thought they were God's only chosen elect people.
God had a different idea, God was electing people to believe and be saved all over the earth, not just the jews.
Always there is the idea of who believes, and why do they believe in Jesus. The teaching of election answers why they believe.

Obadiah 1:10
[ Edom Mistreated His Brother ] “For violence against your brother Jacob, Shame shall cover you, And you shall be cut off forever.

Malachi 1:4
Even though Edom has said, “We have been impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places,” Thus says the Lordof hosts: “They may build, but I will throw down; They shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, And the people against whom the Lord will have indignation forever.

God does not change His mind.

That wasn't my question. Please re-read the question.

 

[sdowney717]

God's love that actually saves, makes us alive is not the same as God's command or desire that all people repent of sin and believe in Christ.
To ignore Ephesians is to call God a liar. It is not any kind of mercy and love that sends people into an eternal torment of hell.

People are saved only because of this mercy, and God chooses to show compassion and mercy ONLY TO SOME PEOPLE, not all people, as Romans 8 and 9 so states, God himself said those words. Otherwise your a universalist, some teachings claim because God is love, hell and death is only temporary. But salvation and hell are eternal.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).

 

[sdowney717]

It is not only that it is God's choice to show compassion, or not, it is also that God does exercise His word, actively have compassion or not. And this is according to HIS CHOICE according to HIS ELECTING of individual people, not of our own wills.

Romans 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

The problem seems to me, is many of you think God chooses to show love and compassion to every single person. This is not scriptural!

 

[Patmos]

Scripture proves God's love saves some sinners, not all sinners.

The Bible says different:

“For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost” (Luke 19:10).

“For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost” (Matthew 18:11).

“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve” (Mark 10:45).

“Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:28).

“But He said to them, ‘I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose’” (Luke 4:43).

“Therefore Pilate said to Him, ‘So You are a king?’ Jesus answered, ‘You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world’” (John 18:37).


He came to save sinners.
“Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners” (I Timothy 1:15).

“Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29).

 

[Patmos]

Scripture proves God's love saves some sinners, not all sinners.

Against Limited Atonement

https://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/did-jesus-die-everyone-my-calvinist-friends-say-no

The Bible says that Jesus died for all, therefore, Jesus died for all. God so loved the world, not just the Christian, that He died for everyone , and it is up to the person to accept or reject Jesus. If he rejects Jesus, then the atonement is not applied to the person, and he will go to Hell. But, Jesus' sacrifice was not only sufficient for all but intended for all.

Scriptures used to support an unlimited atonement are as follows:

• Jesus died for everyone.
  • John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'"
  • John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
  • John 4:42, "and they were saying to the woman, 'It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.'"
  • 1 Tim. 4:10, "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
  • 1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
  • 1 John 4:14, "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."

 

[Patmos]

Scripture proves God's love saves some sinners, not all sinners.

2 Peter 3:8-10King James Version (KJV)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[GillDouglas]

Will a moderator please close this thread. Thanks.

 

[ToBeLoved]

2 Peter 3:8-10King James Version (KJV)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Good verse. 'That any should perish'

 

[sdowney717]

2 Peter 3:8-10King James Version (KJV)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Apostle Peter writes
"but is long suffering to us-ward" that is long suffering to you who are the beloved elect of God.
This letter is not written to or for the unbelieving world/
Who is Peter writing to?
The 'beloved', the elect is to whom Peter writes this epistle.

2 Peter 3:1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, .............................
2 Peter 3:17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall

Again people are mixing the people of the world into the people of God regarding the promises of God which are only for His church made up of His elect.

Peter is quite clear of this, as he spoke of us who are elect, chosen to be obedient to Jesus Christ in his first epistle, that we are set apart by God to be His own special people who have received mercy from God to be saved.

1 Peter 2
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

And in the first chapter

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

That is the elect of God are chosen of God to be Christians who are obedient to Christ and have His blood atonement

 

[Patmos]

Apostle Peter writes
"but is long suffering to us-ward" that is long suffering to you who are the beloved elect of God.
This letter is not written to or for the unbelieving world/
Who is Peter writing to?
The 'beloved', the elect is to whom Peter writes this epistle.

Very few Calvinist these days hold to limited atonement!

 

[Patmos]

The atonement of Jesus Christ is unlimited in every way. Christ died for everyone; he took the punishment for the sins of all. Does Scripture teach it? Absolutely. 1 Timothy 2:6 says that Christ gave himself as a ransom for everyone. The Greek is clear: it says “all people.” There is no room to interpret this as meaning “all kinds of people.”

John Piper, noting the conflict between this verse and limited atonement, which he espouses, claims that Christ did die for even the non-elect. His death affords them many blessings in this life even if not escape from hell in the next. Christ did not die to save them but only to offer them temporal blessings. This is the same as saying he gives the non-elect a little bit of heaven to go to hell in.

Piper’s “explanation” is clearly contrary to the plain sense of this Scripture passage which is why many Calvinists cannot accept limited atonement. And yet they cannot explain why Christ would die for those God planned not to save."

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2013/03/whats-wrong-with-calvinism/

 

[Patmos]

Bottom line for me.

It is largely a mystery, the secret council of God's will. Spurgeon says so as well. As does John Calvin - Institutes , book 3 Chapter 27.

So I am in good company.

The cruncher - read Canons and Dort for yourself. Read the Westminster confessions for yourself.
Compare it to what Jesus Christ actually said.

 

[Patmos]

Will a moderator please close this thread. Thanks.

Have I upset you by exposing the truth ?

The following is from The Canon of Dort.

Tell me Gill, how many time is Jesus quoted in the Canons ?

 

[StanJ]

The context though of Romans 5 is toward the church, not the unsaved world.
So when you read while we were sinners, Christ died for us, that means Christ died for His church, that is Christ died so that believers would have eternal life, not something for the world which does not believe and does not have eternal life.
Yes we were the ungodly Christ died for, the sick ones in need of a doctor, but we have the reconciliation since we believe.

The context is about being reconciled while we were yet sinners. The setting may be towards the church then, but it also applies to all people today or do you think it was only directed at them? Remember; "God so loved the WORLD...that WHOEVER believes in him...."
The collective WE that Paul is talking about here, are the unsaved, not the WE of that church. Paul uses inclusive language so as not to offend anybody. It is consistent throughout his writings. A good example is when he refers to himself as the CHIEF of sinners. 1 Tim 1:15-16

Problem is many conflate the world with the church, do not beleive in election or reprobation, none of the doctrines of salvation have any meaning apart from what all scripture inspired of God says about them. That God demonstrates His love towards the US is the church of believers who will be and who are in due time saved, just as Ephesians describes.

Well this sub-forum is about Soteriology, and as such I'm sure most of us understand that the church is the church not the world. The fact is that not everybody who are True Believers believe in the election or reprobation. The T.U.L.I.P. doctrines are only supported by 5 point Calvinists, so that is who I direct my comments towards. I know they're 4 point and 3 point Calvinists, but at this point I haven't seen any in this thread.
The US Paul refers to is not the church but mankind. Paul never spoke in terms that were exclusive, but always in terms that were inclusive. He was the Apostle to the Gentiles and as such he was the one that pointed out that under the New Covenant there was no such thing as Jew or Gentile man or woman slave or free. That is definitely an inclusive gospel. It is directed at all who would believe. Salvation is brought about very plainly as Paul instructs in Romans 10:9-11.

See if you can prove that we were not enemies of Christ from scripture in out unsaved state, and and also prove that we are enemies of Christ from scripture in our unsaved state. Scripturally we were enemies and all the unsaved are still enemies. Your own scripture reference in your post clearly points out we were enemies of Christ before being converted.
Anything other than scripture is hearsay evidence, only your opinion.

I've no problem with what the scripture says about our being God's enemies before we were saved. I also understand that we can become God's enemy after we are saved if we don't obey and practice what he told us to do regarding loving one another, including our enemies, and His.

 

[StanJ]

Will a moderator please close this thread. Thanks.

Why are you asking for the thread to be closed? Did you get more push-back than you anticipated?

 

[Patmos]

Well ? Gill

Truth Challenge