Calvinism, explained.

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supersoldier71

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The unrighteous in Matt 25 know Jesus and he knows them. However, they didn't serve him.

I'm speaking of a deeper knowledge than that. Jesus knows His sheep and His sheep know His voice.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Elect, genuine, sincere: those terms are used descriptively, not predictively.

Calvinists do not for one second believe that somehow, someone who earnestly desires a relationship with Jesus Christ will be turned away, it's just that Calvinists believe that it was the Holy Spirit of God is then source of that desire.

And yes, we do believe that salvation is a monergistic function that was completed for the "elect" on the Cross. Because we believe that before salvation, we are spiritually dead, incapable of reacting or responding to spiritual stimuli.

We doubt them only in that while God is omniscient, we are not. We have to rely on the outward evidence of conversion over time to know, on any level, whether someone was saved or not.
But to descibe what? Why would one even need to qualify their faith as sincere? How can their faith not be sincere? They have no choice.

How can someone that is made saved by God, then qualify using the descriptor 'genuine salvation'. Asking is then doubting that God has done the work in you and me and everyone as promised.


That's not faith. That's doubt.
 
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Thursday

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I'm speaking of a deeper knowledge than that. Jesus knows His sheep and His sheep know His voice.

The point of Matt 25 is that our actions determine our fate as well as our faith. The difference between the sheep and the goats is what they did, not what they believed.
 
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EmSw

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"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Romans 8:28-30

God knew whom He would choose from before creation; the debt for sin was paid in full on the Cross; it is actualized when the person is saved at some point during their lifespan.

God bless.

And what price was paid for sin at the cross?

How do we know if one loves God?
 
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supersoldier71

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And what price was paid for sin at the cross?

How do we know if one loves God?

I don't know if you love God. The Christian faith is about a personal relationship with Our Lord, Jesus Christ. Personal. Now because of how He made us (in His image) we're social creatures, and we seek the comfort and strength that we find in other believers (the Body of Christ), which is why we're here, arguing about how one comes to be saved. We seek out other believers, no matter how we feel they came to be believers, because frankly, how they came to Christ doesn't really matter to us, because you, me, every other believer is a servant of Christ the King. We serve each other to be sure according to the gifts with which He has blessed us, but we are in the service and household of the Most High God.

All of that to answer your first question: the penalty for sin is death, which Christ paid on the Cross. Where we differ is whether God and God alone chooses who is ultimately redeemed, or whether people have some choice. I believe that before we "choose" Christ, we are spiritually dead and thus, incapable of doing anything in the spirit, thus, it follows that Christ must act first (Ephesians 1:4).

If you believe otherwise, I'm okay with that, for one thing because there are brothers and sisters in Christ who hold your view, about whose faith I am as sure as I am that the sun will rise tomorrow. We just disagree.

But I also feel that if we indeed believe that the God the Son took on flesh, walked among us, suffered and died for our sins--MY SINS--and rose on the third day...if we agree on that, then it could be said that we agree on the important things. How we arrive at that belief, we'll only know for certain when we are together in the presence of the Lord.

God bless!
 
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ToBeLoved

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Lifetime means over time
Why would God seal you with the Holy Spirit to then take Him away each time you sin?

What do you think it means that you have been sealed by God Himself, as a guarantee until the day or redemption?

Does God go back on His covenants? Does God break His seals? Does God go back and not guarantee what it says in His Word is a guarantee?

If you have the Holy Spirit, you have been sealed by the covenant that Jesus made with us in the New Covenant. You have been sealed with a guarantee that you are a co-heir with Christ until you receive your full inheritance.

When God made a covenant with Israel, it was once. When Jesus made a covenant with us, it is once.
 
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tulipbee

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Why would God seal you with the Holy Spirit to then take Him away each time you sin?

What do you think it means that you have been sealed by God Himself, as a guarantee until the day or redemption?

Does God go back on His covenants? Does God break His seals? Does God go back and not guarantee what it says in His Word is a guarantee?

If you have the Holy Spirit, you have been sealed by the covenant that Jesus made with us in the New Covenant. You have been sealed with a guarantee that you are a co-heir with Christ until you receive your full inheritance.

When God made a covenant with Israel, it was once. When Jesus made a covenant with us, it is once.
Perseverance is a mark of the saints, so of course I persist in the
word of God against all your evil, manmade traditions put up against it!
Do not lace your posts full of ad hominem arguments.

Obviously "your Jesus" is not the Jesus of the Bible.

You ignored the other proof texts which
I provided is proof you have Pick-and-Choose
Theology based on your own preferences.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Lifetime means over time
Sanctification is the only one of those mentioned that occurs over a life time.

Justification is immediate.

Salvation is immediate.

So how can you say all three of these happen over a lifetime? Can you please list what you believe the defintion of each of these to be and how they occur in your opinion over a lifetime (besides sanctification because that is over a lifetime)
 
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GillDouglas

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This totally negates our responsibility for obedience and faith.

Why even write the bible if this is the case?

This doctrine of Calvin if flawed logically and biblically.
What you fail to realize is that obedience and faith comes with the gift of salvation from God Himself. He provides all the means necessary to return safely and eternally among His presence, and the means for us to 'perform' as His child while we are still here. What you fail to realize is that any self-derived 'obedience and faith' is sin, and has no worth. What you believe in is Karma, not Christ, in hopes that all your 'good works' will set your right before God. What you fail to realize is that Christ's death doesn't require any of your 'good works' added to it and your ONLY hope is in Him.
 
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supersoldier71

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If you feel compelled to be in the presence of the living God, you're elect.

All of the "ifs" are conditional, because although election and salvation are monergistic, solely the work of God, faith comes by hearing. I don't know the condition of your heart nor the state of your salvation. Remember that Paul is speaking to congregations of saints, not proselytizing. Even though we believe that our Salvation was secured by the work of Christ, we also feel that it is our duty to "work out our Salvation with fear and trembling." It is by these internal attitudes, the grave concern we have regarding displeasing Jesus, that we have confidence that our faith is real. I have no idea how or why God would choose this method to increase His Kingdom, but He did, and we are commanded to make disciples.

No, one does not lose their salvation after birth and regain it at salvation: the price has already been paid: He chose us before the foundations of the universe were laid.

God bless.
 
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EmSw

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If you feel compelled to be in the presence of the living God, you're elect.

All of the "ifs" are conditional, because although election and salvation are monergistic, solely the work of God, faith comes by hearing. I don't know the condition of your heart nor the state of your salvation. Remember that Paul is speaking to congregations of saints, not proselytizing. Even though we believe that our Salvation was secured by the work of Christ, we also feel that it is our duty to "work out our Salvation with fear and trembling." It is by these internal attitudes, the grave concern we have regarding displeasing Jesus, that we have confidence that our faith is real. I have no idea how or why God would choose this method to increase His Kingdom, but He did, and we are commanded to make disciples.

No, one does not lose their salvation after birth and regain it at salvation: the price has already been paid: He chose us before the foundations of the universe were laid.

God bless.

Since you were elected before the foundation of the world, then you must have felt compelled to be in the presence of the living God ALL YOUR LIFE. Is this true?

Was there ever a point in your life you were not saved? Is so, then we have unsaved elect. Is this true? Do you have scripture to back this up?

Neither you nor I know the state of your salvation, since you believe it is a 50/50 chance you are either predestined to heaven or foreordained to hell. The sad part is you have no choice nor say in the matter. You must be a lucky one for God to choose you, since it is unconditional. Hope is your only friend in salvation.
 
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supersoldier71

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Since you were elected before the foundation of the world, then you must have felt compelled to be in the presence of the living God ALL YOUR LIFE. Is this true?

Was there ever a point in your life you were not saved? Is so, then we have unsaved elect. Is this true? Do you have scripture to back this up?

Neither you nor I know the state of your salvation, since you believe it is a 50/50 chance you are either predestined to heaven or foreordained to hell. The sad part is you have no choice nor say in the matter. You must be a lucky one for God to choose you, since it is unconditional. Hope is your only friend in salvation.


Not sure where you're going with this, but I'll try to answer:

Yes, there was a point when I hadn't come into the knowledge of my salvation, so to speak. The work was done, but for God's purposes, He allowed me to do what I thought I wanted to do. Unsaved elect? Sure, but the Lord won't let His own die before revealing Himself to them.

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,…"

Election and salvation are not the same thing, at the same time: election precedes salvation. Election was God's sovereign act before time was time. See Ephesians 1:3-5 again:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will."

Yes, I know the state of my salvation. I have no real knowledge of yours, nor frankly, you of mine. What we can know is whether the professing believer demonstrates the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. Bearing fruit is the natural result of being born again of the Spirit of God. No one who is born again will keep on living in perpetual sinful lifestyles according to 1 John 3:9, so that would be solid evidence of renewal, rebirth, restoration. Further, as we are called a "chosen generation" a "royal priesthood", the believer is compelled to honor Christ by obeying His commandments. Finally, we shall be known by our agape love for one another within the Body of Christ. By all these means, we may have confidence in another's faith, but in all candor, the Christian faith is not about others' relationship (or lack) with Jesus Christ; it's about our personal relationship with Christ.

Which brings me to your final assertion: if I am by nature a sinner (which I was, and of the flesh, still am) as Paul states in Romans 5 and was spiritually dead, in other words, unable to act spiritually, then the Holy Spirit had to intervene, because of my own power, I was unable to make myself alive (Romans 5:6-8). Now, filled with the Spirit of God, I act as one who is spiritually alive: I love God with all my heart, mind and strength, I love my neighbor as myself, imperfect though I be.

You say that it is sad that I have no say, I say, PRAISE GOD! I was dead in my trespasses. The dead have no choice; they stay dead. God is not under any obligation to "choose" anyone, but He does (Romans 9:21) for His purposes, according to the counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1:11). Of the flesh, I didn't, wouldn't and couldn't "choose" God, I could only "choose" Hell.

As a Christian, I don't believe in luck when I worship a God who is sovereign over all things, great and small and is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.

So to your last statement, I have the assurance that because He does the choosing, that my salvation has been worked out in eternity past (as it has for ALL of God's people), I know that there is no force in all of Creation that can take me from my place (Romans 8:37-39, John 6:37, John 10:28-29). I--WE--have been placed in the hands of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords by our Heavenly Father, not some decision you or I made long ago. I rest in that security and I pray--earnestly pray--that you will come to as well.

God bless you all!
 
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EmSw

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Not sure where you're going with this, but I'll try to answer:

Yes, there was a point when I hadn't come into the knowledge of my salvation, so to speak. The work was done, but for God's purposes, He allowed me to do what I thought I wanted to do. Unsaved elect? Sure, but the Lord won't let His own die before revealing Himself to them.

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,…"

Election and salvation are not the same thing, at the same time: election precedes salvation. Election was God's sovereign act before time was time. See Ephesians 1:3-5 again:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will."

Yes, I know the state of my salvation. I have no real knowledge of yours, nor frankly, you of mine. What we can know is whether the professing believer demonstrates the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. Bearing fruit is the natural result of being born again of the Spirit of God. No one who is born again will keep on living in perpetual sinful lifestyles according to 1 John 3:9, so that would be solid evidence of renewal, rebirth, restoration. Further, as we are called a "chosen generation" a "royal priesthood", the believer is compelled to honor Christ by obeying His commandments. Finally, we shall be known by our agape love for one another within the Body of Christ. By all these means, we may have confidence in another's faith, but in all candor, the Christian faith is not about others' relationship (or lack) with Jesus Christ; it's about our personal relationship with Christ.

Which brings me to your final assertion: if I am by nature a sinner (which I was, and of the flesh, still am) as Paul states in Romans 5 and was spiritually dead, in other words, unable to act spiritually, then the Holy Spirit had to intervene, because of my own power, I was unable to make myself alive (Romans 5:6-8). Now, filled with the Spirit of God, I act as one who is spiritually alive: I love God with all my heart, mind and strength, I love my neighbor as myself, imperfect though I be.

You say that it is sad that I have no say, I say, PRAISE GOD! I was dead in my trespasses. The dead have no choice; they stay dead. God is not under any obligation to "choose" anyone, but He does (Romans 9:21) for His purposes, according to the counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1:11). Of the flesh, I didn't, wouldn't and couldn't "choose" God, I could only "choose" Hell.

As a Christian, I don't believe in luck when I worship a God who is sovereign over all things, great and small and is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.

So to your last statement, I have the assurance that because He does the choosing, that my salvation has been worked out in eternity past (as it has for ALL of God's people), I know that there is no force in all of Creation that can take me from my place (Romans 8:37-39, John 6:37, John 10:28-29). I--WE--have been placed in the hands of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords by our Heavenly Father, not some decision you or I made long ago. I rest in that security and I pray--earnestly pray--that you will come to as well.

God bless you all!

Thank you for your response.

I do have one thing to say. Throughout the NT, a person isn't chosen (elected) until he/she is called first.

Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Luke 6:13
And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles:

Revelation 17:14
These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Perseverance is a mark of the saints, so of course I persist in the
word of God against all your evil, manmade traditions put up against it!
Do not lace your posts full of ad hominem arguments.

Obviously "your Jesus" is not the Jesus of the Bible.

You ignored the other proof texts which
I provided is proof you have Pick-and-Choose
Theology based on your own preferences.
First, I hope that you would not call me evil again or I will report you next time.

Second, please do not tell me how to post. If you do not like the way I post something, it might be nice if you just pass it by instead of being so negative.

Third, there is no other Jesus, the Son of God, except in the Bible. So my Jesus is your Jesus and I do not appreciate your claim that I do not have the One and Only Jesus. Another flaming offense that I could report, but will give you another chance to be nicer.
 
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supersoldier71

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Thank you for your response.

I do have one thing to say. Throughout the NT, a person isn't chosen (elected) until he/she is called first.

Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Luke 6:13
And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles:

Revelation 17:14
These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.

No doubt! I think that Scripture describes a system where God made the decision whom He would call, when they'd be called, and the manner in which they would hear the Gospel. In the NT, when Jesus says "who has ears" (for example), that's spiritual discernment He's talking about, and that is a gift from God, I think we'd all agree.

But again, nothing in Scripture points to even the remotest possibility that someone who really desires a relationship with God will be lost. Nor does it indicate that based on election, Ted Bundy, Pol Pot and Stalin will be rejoicing with the saints in heaven because based on their earthly actions, they had NOT been blessed with the indwelling Holy Spirit.

I've gotta get ready for work (crazy hours and I'm halfway 'round the world), but if you have further questions, I'll do my best to answer them, Scripturally.

God bless!
 
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