Calvinism, explained.

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EmSw

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I'm not into meism like you two. It's all
about Jesus, not me nor men.

If someone believes they are saved from
a work they do their salvation is defective.
Eve got into trouble when she tried a glory
grab, the arminian make a glory grab of glory
that all belongs to the Lord Jesus.

I wish Tulip knew the word better, then we could have a profitable discussion.

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
 
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EmSw

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If the atheists can do it so can you

Here is your quote from post #189 - "Man is not free to choose anything but to sin"

Now you are backtracking and saying atheists can choose to stop from lying and committing adultery. Yet you say you can't.

If you are going to keep on this way, you will need a bigger shovel to dig that hole you're in.
 
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tulipbee

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Here is your quote from post #189 - "Man is not free to choose anything but to sin"

Now you are backtracking and saying atheists can choose to stop from lying and committing adultery. Yet you say you can't.

If you are going to keep on this way, you will need a bigger shovel to dig that hole you're in.
The Lord ~could~ have made us mindless robots
-then, sin wouldn't be a problem.
 
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tulipbee

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This is incorrect also.

We are reconciled back to God through His death on the cross, when we show faith in Him as Lord for the forgiveness of sins.
It's never been an issue of you
pounding on heaven's door being
refused admittance.

Everybody who sincerely repents
and genuinely believes SHALL be
saved.

The thing being that only the Elect
sincerely repent and genuinely believe !
 
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ToBeLoved

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It's never been an issue of you
pounding on heaven's door being refused admittance.

Everybody who sincerely repents
and genuinely believes SHALL be
saved.

The thing being that only the Elect
sincerely repent and genuinely believe
!
That's why I do not practice or believe in Calvinism.

How would you know who is "Elect", who "sincerely" repents and who "genuinely" believes?

Seems like you are questioning others faith or encouraging them to avoid faith all together by using words like "Elect", "sincerely", and 'genuine".

What the sentence shows is that the Calvinist believe only some or "elect". That some repentance is not sincere and that some belief is not genuine.

So for a new believer, what does that make them think of God's covenant with them? If they even think God wants them?
 
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tulipbee

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So, can you choose to do anything but sin? You're a little wishy washy in your beliefs.
Your christ loves every individual person in the world
and sincerely desires their salvation.

My Christ earnestly loves and desires the salvation of only
those whom God has unconditionally chosen to salvation. (Ps. 5:5, Ps. 7:11,
Ps. 11:5, Matt. 11:27, John 17:9-10, Acts 2:47, Acts 13:48, Rom. 9:10-13,
Rom. 9:21-24, Eph. 1:3-4)
 
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tulipbee

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If I asked you, "am I elect"? How would you respond to that question.
"You're a misinformed nuthead!"
God has two wills (from our perspective): His
revealed will, and His secret will.

The Lord has set forth His revealed will in the Bible.
God's secret will He has not chosen to share with
us.

Predestination and Election are part of His revealed
will. Unless you suppose that the Most High has
deigned to mislead us, we can trust in that revelation.

Who -in every case- is among the Elect, God does
not inform us. But, the mechanism of Election
He makes clear in His Word. You supposing that the
Lord has provided us with half-truths, red herrings,
and misleading omissions is blasphemous!
 
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supersoldier71

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That's why I do not practice or believe in Calvinism.

How would you know who is "Elect", who "sincerely" repents and who "genuinely" believes?

Seems like you are questioning others faith or encouraging them to avoid faith all together by using words like "Elect", "sincerely", and 'genuine".

What the sentence shows is that the Calvinist believe only some or "elect". That some repentance is not sincere and that some belief is not genuine.

So for a new believer, what does that make them think of God's covenant with them? If they even think God wants them?

I do not have to know the state of your faith, and the only person who does, already does, and has known since before He made anything.

That's the point. Christ knows His own and has always known, before your birth, before the Fall, before Creation itself.

Faith is a gift from God that comes from having a heart that has been made flesh. Prior to salvation, Calvinist thinking holds that the spiritually dead is a literal, if unseen form of death, where we are all separated from God. Of their own power, the dad may only stay dead. We believe that God makes the first step by breathing life into the dead, and then we may have faith.
 
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supersoldier71

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That's why I do not practice or believe in Calvinism.

How would you know who is "Elect", who "sincerely" repents and who "genuinely" believes?

Seems like you are questioning others faith or encouraging them to avoid faith all together by using words like "Elect", "sincerely", and 'genuine".

What the sentence shows is that the Calvinist believe only some or "elect". That some repentance is not sincere and that some belief is not genuine.

So for a new believer, what does that make them think of God's covenant with them? If they even think God wants them?


I don't think either camp can truly know who truly saved. That's for God and God alone.

However, I think we can see the fruits of the spirit in people's lives that are indicative of conversion, new life, redemption, sanctification...and there are people on both sides of this issue who will rejoice in Heaven with each other in the presence of the King...and those on either side whom the Gospel of Jesus Christ has condemned.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I do not have to know the state of your faith, and the only person who does, already does, and has known since before He made anything.

That's the point. Christ knows His own and has always known, before your birth, before the Fall, before Creation itself.

Faith is a gift from God that comes from having a heart that has been made flesh. Prior to salvation, Calvinist thinking holds that the spiritually dead is a literal, if unseen form of death, where we are all separated from God. Of their own power, the dad may only stay dead. We believe that God makes the first step by breathing life into the dead, and then we may have faith.
If you do not need to know the state of my faith, because Jesus does.

Then why do yo9u use the words "elect' , 'genuine' and 'sincerely'? Doesn't sound like you think that it's just between the person and God, because your already adding disqualifiers to eliminate some. But then you say 'it is not you that knows, but God.'

Calvinists talk out of both sides. If God draws a person than why would they need to worry or even think about if they are or not 'elect' if they are or are not 'sincere' or 'genuine'? Because it all happened to them. There was no choice, and they did nothing.

So why would a Calvinist ever doubt any of these things?
 
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ToBeLoved

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I don't think either camp can truly know who truly saved. That's for God and God alone.

However, I think we can see the fruits of the spirit in people's lives that are indicative of conversion, new life, redemption, sanctification...and there are people on both sides of this issue who will rejoice in Heaven with each other in the presence of the King...and those on either side whom the Gospel of Jesus Christ has condemned.
But for the most part, Arminians do not doubt people's salvation unless it is so obvious that there is a real reason to doubt.

From the Calvinist perspective after conversion there are still questions about the believer:

* are they elect?
* do they have genuine belief?
* did they really repent?
* were they ever called?
* do they have faith?

But in the next breath they say
'but we can do nothing'

So why question anyone's beliefs if there is no choice and it just happens?

Wouldn't you then welcome anyone?
 
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tulipbee

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That's why I do not practice or believe in Calvinism.

How would you know who is "Elect", who "sincerely" repents and who "genuinely" believes?

Seems like you are questioning others faith or encouraging them to avoid faith all together by using words like "Elect", "sincerely", and 'genuine".

What the sentence shows is that the Calvinist believe only some or "elect". That some repentance is not sincere and that some belief is not genuine.

So for a new believer, what does that make them think of God's covenant with them? If they even think God wants them?
Being among the Elect is the result of having
been elected. THAT was done before the
creation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ).

Nowhere in the Bible does it say a "personal
relationship" elects us !

The whole concept of Election ...so frequently
mentioned in Scripture... has no meaning if
we elect ourselves.
 
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ToBeLoved

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"You're a misinformed nuthead!"
God has two wills (from our perspective): His
revealed will, and His secret will.

The Lord has set forth His revealed will in the Bible.
God's secret will He has not chosen to share with
us.

Predestination and Election are part of His revealed
will. Unless you suppose that the Most High has
deigned to mislead us, we can trust in that revelation.

Who -in every case- is among the Elect, God does
not inform us. But, the mechanism of Election
He makes clear in His Word. You supposing that the
Lord has provided us with half-truths, red herrings,
and misleading omissions is blasphemous!
Can you please answer my question.

If I asked you, "am I elect"? How would you respond to that question.
 
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supersoldier71

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If you do not need to know the state of my faith, because Jesus does.

Then why do yo9u use the words "elect' , 'genuine' and 'sincerely'? Doesn't sound like you think that it's just between the person and God, because your already adding disqualifiers to eliminate some. But then you say 'it is not you that knows, but God.'

Calvinists talk out of both sides. If God draws a person than why would they need to worry or even think about if they are or not 'elect' if they are or are not 'sincere' or 'genuine'? Because it all happened to them. There was no choice, and they did nothing.

So why would a Calvinist ever doubt any of these things?

Elect, genuine, sincere: those terms are used descriptively, not predictively.

Calvinists do not for one second believe that somehow, someone who earnestly desires a relationship with Jesus Christ will be turned away, it's just that Calvinists believe that it was the Holy Spirit of God is then source of that desire.

And yes, we do believe that salvation is a monergistic function that was completed for the "elect" on the Cross. Because we believe that before salvation, we are spiritually dead, incapable of reacting or responding to spiritual stimuli.

We doubt them only in that while God is omniscient, we are not. We have to rely on the outward evidence of conversion over time to know, on any level, whether someone was saved or not.
 
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tulipbee

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Can you please answer my question.

If I asked you, "am I elect"? How would you respond to that question.
"I'm not God!"

You have the physical capability to confess Christ and
repent of their sins. The Lord won't stop you mouth if
you attempt to get the words out !

You have the spiritual inability to confess Christ and
repent of your sins.

Thus, the unregenerate have mouths to believe and repent,
but NOT hearts to do so !

"I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am
the Lord" ( Jeremiah 24:7 NIV, NKJ )

THAT is where regeneration (being Born Again) comes in.

"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit
within you; and I will remove the heart of stone
from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh."
( Ezekiel 36:26 NASB )
 
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tulipbee

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Are you one of the elect?

How do you know?
You seem to want a notarized letter to
that effect from God.

If you are saved you will have the illumination
of the Holy Spirit. God won't allow you to be
deceived on any essential point of faith or
doctrine ...at least in the long term.

So, the ~real~ question is not whether a
Christian is being deceived, but whether the
person is a real Christian !

There are a lot of people deceived about
their very salvation (Matthew 7:22-23).
There will be no objective, verifiable way for
them to know whether or not they're saved
until they stand before the Lord.

That's just the way it is. If you are of Christ,
the Holy Spirit shall illuminate you. You'll
be protected from fundamental error in the
long term.

If you aren't of Christ, you won't be. You'll
be deceived and there's no way you'll know
that you're being deceived.

If you want, you can go to some Pope or
Priest or Patriarch, and ask them. But,
let me assure you, when
you stand before God you'll stand alone.
 
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