Calvin said...

[Skala]

 

[EmSw]

Pouting Calvinist Tot: Arminians say no one has life unless he does something!
Arminian: That wasn't the Arminians.
Pouting Calvinist Tot: HUH?
Arminian: That was Paul in Ephesians 4:17,18

 

[Skala]

Is Ephesians 4 meant to be understood in light of Ephesians 1 and 2?

Or should we copy your hermeneutic and take Eph 4 in a vacuum, out of context, and develop and entire soteriology out of it?

 

[EmSw]

Is Ephesians 4 meant to be understood in light of Ephesians 1 and 2?

Or is Ephesians 1 and 2 meant to be understood in light of Ephesians 4?

Or should we copy your hermeneutic and take Eph 4 in a vacuum, out of context, and develop and entire soteriology out of it?

No Skala, pay no attention to Ephesians 4; did you not know Paul did not mean to write this chapter. What was Paul thinking? What is putting off the old man and putting on the new man anyway? It's just a bunch of mumble jumble. What got into Paul? Perhaps you can straighten out Paul when you see him. You can scold him for writing something that doesn't fit your theology.

Oh, by the way, you take Ephesians 1 in a vacuum and out of context to develop your own soteriology.

 

[Butch5]

Calvin just misinterpreted them!

 

[Skala]

Calvin just misinterpreted them!

Maybe Butch5 misinterpreted them.

After all, nobody said this about Butch5:

For I affirm that in the interpretation of the Scriptures Calvin is incomparable, and that his Commentaries are more to be valued than anything that is handed down to us in the writings of the Fathers—so much so that I concede to him a certain spirit of prophecy in which he stands distinguished above others, above most, indeed, above all.

That was Arminius complimenting Calvin, btw.

 

[Butch5]

Maybe Butch5 misinterpreted them.

After all, nobody said this about Butch5:



That was Arminius complimenting Calvin, btw.

Ok, so you've proven that neither of them understand the texts. You see it's not hard to understand the texts when you look at the context. But first you have stop trying to defend Calvin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Let's just take a couple of the first verses that are used erroneously in the comic within the original post.

Okay, as for Acts 13:48:
Well, this verse does not mention a fore-ordination.

Here is a good quote:

"Calvinists ... seem to imply that there is only one kind of ordination: fore-ordination. But what about present tense ordinations? Acts 14:23 states: “And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.” The ordination of the elders seems to be described as something that occurred right then and there. Do Calvinists infer that they had fore-ordained the elders? Certainly not. So why, then, would Calvinists read-in a fore-ordination at Acts 13:48?"​

I believe Acts 13:48 is best understood when looking the the Message Bible on this one.

Acts 13:48 MSG
"When the non-Jewish outsiders heard this, they could hardly believe their good fortune. All who were marked out for real life put their trust in God—they honored God’s Word by receiving that life."​

In other words, the recipients of the gospel who believed were marked for eternal life by Paul and Barnabas who preached the good news to them. This group was ordained by Paul and Barnabas so as to be saved (or so as to have eternal life).

As for the unregenerate not being able to obey God and Romans 7 thru Romans 9:

Well, the Bible says,

"...When the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he has committed, and does that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive." (Ezekiel 18:27).​

But according to Calvinism, the wicked cannot turn away from their wickedness.

Also, Jesus says that the Ninevites will rise up in Jugment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). Now, if you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would see the King of the Ninevites telling his people to put on sackcloth and cry out to God. You would also see that they turned from their evil and wicked ways, too (Jonah 3:6-10). In other words, the Ninevites would not be able to rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented if it was all God who was the One who caused them to repent.

As for God making some vessels for mercy and other vessels for wrath in Romans 9:

Here is a good quote that might help:

"In Jeremiah 18 the Lord showed Jeremiah a potter who was working on a vessel that didn’t turn out right. So the potter revised his plan and formed a different kind of pot out of it (Jere 18:1-4). In the same way, the Lord said, since he is the potter and Israel is the clay, he has the right and is willing to “change his mind” about his plans for Israel if they will simply repent (Jere. 18:4-11). Indeed, the Lord announced that whenever he’s going to judge a nation, he is willing to change his mind if the nation repents. Conversely, whenever God announces that he’s going to bless a nation, he will change his mind if that nation turns away from him. In other words, the point of the potter-clay analogy is not God’s unilateral control, but God’s willingness and right to change his plans in response to changing hearts."​

Source Used for quote concerning Acts 13:48:
http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/NT/Acts13_48.html

Source Used for quote for Romans 9:
http://reknew.org/2008/01/how-do-you-respond-to-romans-9/#sthash.AEOB5C9M.dpuf

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[Skala]

"But according to Calvinism, the wicked cannot turn away from their wickedness."

That's not according to Calvinism, that's according to Romans 8, Matthew 7, Luke 6, Jeremiah 13, and more.

Besides, you're missing the point.

It's not that no wicked person ever repents (otherwise, nobody would be saved), it's that we need grace in order to repent. In other words, grace, and not our own good sense, is to be credited for when we repent.

By your arguments, are you saying you disagree that grace should be credited, and instead man should get the credit?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"But according to Calvinism, the wicked cannot turn away from their wickedness."

That's not according to Calvinism, that's according to Romans 8, Matthew 7, Luke 6, Jeremiah 13, and more.

Besides, you're missing the point.

It's not that no wicked person ever repents (otherwise, nobody would be saved), it's that we need grace in order to repent. In other words, grace, and not our own good sense, is to be credited for when we repent.

By your arguments, are you saying you disagree that grace should be credited, and instead man should get the credit?

That is just silly. If a man offers a hand to save a drowning man, can the drowning man take the credit for being saved just because he puts out his hand so that the man can save him? No. Of course not.

Also, I offered two verses (Ezekiel 18:27) (Matthew 12:41) (with one of them involving a cross reference passage - (Jonah 3:6-10)) that show that the wicked can turn away from their wicked ways. You really did not give an answer in explaining those two verses.

Plus, you just gave me general chapter references to support your position. Can you be a little more specific and give me verses instead?



....

 

[Skala]

That is just silly. If a man offers a hand to save a drowning man, can the drowning man take the credit for being saved just because he puts out his hand so that the man can save him? No. Of course not.

Also, I offered two verses (Ezekiel 18:27) (Matthew 12:41) (with one of them involving a cross reference passage - (Jonah 3:6-10)) that show that the wicked can turn away from their wicked ways. You really did not give an answer in explaining those two verses.

Plus, you just gave me general chapter references to support your position. Can you be a little more specific and give me verses instead?



....

Calvinism doesn't deny that the wicked can turn away from their ways. What it denies is that man does this without God's help, God's heart-changing grace.

Your position is leaving out all of those other Bible verses that give more information on the subject of a wicked man repenting. You're taking an isolated Bible verse that gives no information about how this happens or God's role in this happening and developing an entire idea around it.

The same Bible that commands the wicked to turn from his wicked ways also says "The Lord's hand was on them, to give them a heart to obey", etc.

It's these other kinds of verses that shed more light on the verses you are focusing on. When you mesh them together, like anyone who gives a rip about Bible truth should (it's called systematic theology), you get a more accurate theology.

 

[Thursday]

"But according to Calvinism, the wicked cannot turn away from their wickedness."

According to God's word:

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!

Luke 15:7
Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.ways!

1 Timothy 2:4
who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Luke 15:6
and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.'

 

[Thursday]

Calvinism doesn't deny that the wicked can turn away from their ways. What it denies is that man does this without God's heart-changing grace.

God's grace reaches out to all men, so this is a redundant statement that distorts God's word.

God wants us to be saved. He gives all men the opportunity for salvation.

He stands at the door and knocks.

Despite what Calvinists claim, it is not God's fault when a man rejects salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Calvinism doesn't deny that the wicked can turn away from their ways. What it denies is that man does this without God's help, God's heart-changing grace.

Well, it is true that God is involved in a person coming to Him. But this is not in violation of their free will. Also, God desires all men to be saved, too. For God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). For Christ was lifted up so as to draw all men unto Himself (John 12:32). God told Cain, "If you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And you shall be its desire, and you must rule over it." (Genesis 4:7). This would not make any sense for God to say this to Cain if he did not actually have a choice in doing good or evil.

Your position is leaving out all of those other Bible verses that give more information on the subject of a wicked man repenting. You're taking an isolated Bible verse that gives no information about how this happens or God's role in this happening and developing an entire idea around it.

Please show me what verses I am leaving out.

The same Bible that commands the wicked to turn from his wicked ways also says "The Lord's hand was on them, to give them a heart to obey", etc.

Okay, so you believe that those who have a heart to obey can be unsaved? This is what Ezekiel 18 says.

"But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All his righteousness that he has done shall not be remembered: in his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die." (Ezekiel 18:24).

It's these other kinds of verses that shed more light on the verses you are focusing on. When you mesh them together, like anyone who gives a rip about Bible truth should (it's called systematic theology), you get a more accurate theology.

Less opinion on my interpretation and more verses please to prove your position.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I mean, how on Earth do you make sense out of verses like this?

""O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me." (Matthew 23:37 NLT).​

For here we see Christ desiring to gather His people (i.e. the Israelites) like a hen gathering her chicks beneath her wings, but His people would not let Him. Meaning, they were resisting the will of God and His desire to save them.


...

 

[sdowney717]

I mean, how on Earth do you make sense out of verses like this?

""O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me." (Matthew 23:37 NLT).​

For here we see Christ desiring to gather His people (i.e. the Israelites) like a hen gathering her chicks beneath her wings, but His people would not let Him. Meaning, they were resisting the will of God and His desire to save them.


...

I make sense of it in the same way I make sense of Romans 10:21
21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Simply that God may show His kindness even to men He knows will never repent and believe.
In reality, this shows the inability of man to respond to God's kindness in faith and belief, being that they are evil.
So God must then intervene in the way of faith coming by hearing God speak to them. and this is accomplished by their prior regeneration so that they have ears to hearken to the gospel.

Israel Rejects the Gospel
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”17 So then faith comesby hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”

19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:

“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”

20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”

21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I make sense of it in the same way I make sense of Romans 10:21
21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Simply that God may show His kindness even to men He knows will never repent and believe.
In reality, this shows the inability of man to respond to God's kindness in faith and belief, being that they are evil.
So God must then intervene in the way of faith coming by hearing God speak to them. and this is accomplished by their prior regeneration so that they have ears to hearken to the gospel.

Israel Rejects the Gospel
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”17 So then faith comesby hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”

19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:

“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”

20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”

21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Why would God's hands be outstretched to them if there was absolutely no way they could come to Him?
Why doesn't God just regenerate them if He desires to be with them?


....

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

b-b-b-b-but

SERVETUS!

/s

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, what happened in history is written by documents by men. Men can re-write history. So I do not look to man made history to help me to determine what is true in the Bible. But when it comes to the Word of God: That is different. It is a divine and holy book that has many evidences backing it up that is divine and true. So our argument against Calvinism should be the Bible and not man made history. So far, I do not see anything that remotely suggests Calvinism. It is like trying to cram a large square peg into a tiny small round hole. It just doesn't fit or work in any way shape or form. In fact, along with the false doctrne of Once Saved Always Saved or Eternal Security, it is one of the easiest doctrines to refute. The Bible is filled with many free will passages in regards to man choosing God without any kind of regeneration.

People believe in Calvinism because they want to feel like they are a part of a special club. Like they are special and elite when nobody else is special. It is pride. It is also an ignoring of man's responsibility in his response towards God. All men have the responsibilty to repent and accept Christ. If not, then there would be no Judgment. For you cannot blame somebody for something that they could not do (Especially when you have the power to save them). In other words, that would be like punishing your dog to obey when you know it has a muscle disease that makes it poop uncontrolably (When you know you could easily cure the animal at any time with a cheap and inexpensive supplement).


...

 

[Skala]

Jason, I didn't say God violated man's will. In fact, the Westminster and Baptist Confessions, in the chapter about election, salvation, etc, specifically make it a point to say that man's will is "done no violence" (ie, violated)

Regeneration doesn't violate our will, it quickens it, renews it, etc.