California's Repeal of "Personal Exemption" to Vaccination is Lawful

NotreDame

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Friday’s federal district court decision in Whitlow v. California upholds California’s repeal of the “personal belief exemption” to the vaccination requirement. The repeal doesn’t violate the Free Exercise Clause, the court concludes, because the vaccination mandate is a neutral law of general applicability. It doesn’t violate the Equal Protection Clause, because there’s a rational basis to the modest remaining exemptions (such as for children who are already in school, at least until they reach seventh grade). It doesn’t violate the right to education under the California Constitution; even assuming that this right triggers “strict scrutiny” of the repeal in this case, the mandate is narrowly tailored to a compelling government interest “in fighting the spread of contagious diseases through mandatory vaccination of school-aged children.” And it doesn’t violate parental rights or children’s rights to bodily integrity, because courts have long held that those rights must yield to the interest in preventing communicable disease.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...al-says-federal-court/?utm_term=.2fb850b50105

A reasonable outcome. An outcome I find palatable. The legal analysis appears strong to me.
 

tall73

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Perhaps while we are at it we can return to the following practices as well:

- US government experimenting on unwitting subjects to refine interrogation techniques
- US participating in studies intentionally giving sexually transmitted diseases to people in Guatamala
- Forced sterilization

Or we could take the hard lessons we learned on informed consent and apply them.

If Vaccines are safe and great, then folks should have no problem being convinced. And companies who make them should not need the immunity they have now.

And please note I am vaccinated, my children are vaccinated, and I took a vaccine withing the last couple years.

But consent is still a principle we should stick to.
 
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brinny

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Perhaps while we are at it we can return to the following practices as well:

- US government experimenting on unwitting subjects to refine interrogation techniques
- US participating in studies intentionally giving sexually transmitted diseases to people in Guatamala
- Forced sterilization

Or we could take the hard lessons we learned on informed consent and apply them.

If Vaccines are safe and great, then folks should have no problem being convinced. And companies who make them should not need the immunity they have now.

And please note I am vaccinated, my children are vaccinated, and I took a vaccine withing the last couple years.

But consent is still a principle we should stick to.

i agree.
 
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NotreDame

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Perhaps while we are at it we can return to the following practices as well:

- US government experimenting on unwitting subjects to refine interrogation techniques
- US participating in studies intentionally giving sexually transmitted diseases to people in Guatamala
- Forced sterilization

Or we could take the hard lessons we learned on informed consent and apply them.

If Vaccines are safe and great, then folks should have no problem being convinced. And companies who make them should not need the immunity they have now.

And please note I am vaccinated, my children are vaccinated, and I took a vaccine withing the last couple years.

But consent is still a principle we should stick to.

Many of those examples are not parallel to the subject of mandates vaccinations. So, they need not be addressed substantively.

The issue of consent is implicit in the decision, quite simply, the interest of consent is not more compelling than the health and safety of the community in general, which is facilitated by vaccination. Vaccinations substantially reduce the likelihood of a viral outbreak that plagued society for centuries, in some instances claiming the lives of hundreds or thousands of people, while permanently handicapping others.
 
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NotreDame

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Consent, while compelling, does not outweigh the more compelling interest of protecting the health of the community in a manner achieved by vaccines.
 
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brinny

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Consent, while compelling, does not our weigh the more compelling interest of protecting the health of the community in a manner achieved by vaccines.

Thank you for your response.

It's obvious i disagree, however.

Peace.
 
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tall73

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Many of those examples are not parallel to the subject of mandates vaccinations. So, they need not be addressed substantively.

The issue of consent is implicit in the decision, quite simply, the interest of consent is not more compelling than the health and safety of the community in general, which is facilitated by vaccination.

If vaccination works then those who choose to be vaccinated are safe. And if vaccines are harmful to some who cannot then take them, how can you say they are perfectly safe? Of course they are not perfectly safe, which is why they spell out all the problems in inserts which doctors usually don't provide unless you ask for them.

My son had a reaction to a vaccination. I am not buying the notion that anything the government wants to put into me is fine.


Vaccinations substantially reduce the likelihood of a viral outbreak that plagued society for centuries, in some instances claiming the lives of hundreds or thousands of people, while permanently handicapping others.

And those who want the benefits of those vaccines can be convinced. They can weigh whether the benefits outweigh the risks without the government thinking for them.
 
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tall73

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Many of those examples are not parallel to the subject of mandates vaccinations. So, they need not be addressed substantively.

Of course they need to be addressed. Those are examples of what happened when the government got to decide what was for the best.

It was for the best that they understand interrogation, even if it meant experimenting on people without their consent.

It was for the best that they understood more about sexually transmitted diseases, even if it meant bypassing consent.

They all share a similarity--consent. If you want to do something to my body you need to get my consent.
 
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NotreDame

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Thank you for your response.

It's obvious i disagree, however.

Peace.

Yes, you certainly disagree. However, I find the arguments espoused against mandated vaccinations, so far, are not supported by sufficient facts or stronger arguments than those made in favor of vaccination.
 
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brinny

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Of course they need to be addressed. Those are examples of what happened when the government got to decide what was for the best.

It was for the best that they understand interrogation, even if it meant experimenting on people without their consent.

It was for the best that they understood more about sexually transmitted diseases, even if it meant bypassing consent.

They all share a similarity--consent. If you want to do something to my body you need to get my consent.

Exactly.

And the government would like to remove our right to giving our consent.
 
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tall73

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Yes, you certainly disagree. However, I find the arguments espoused against mandated vaccinations, so far, are not supported by sufficient facts or stronger arguments than those made in favor of vaccination.


And who gave you the right to decide what argument is stronger? Are you speaking about making your own judgments? We have that right as well. It is called consent. It is not the right of the government to override it.
 
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brinny

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Yes, you certainly disagree. However, I find the arguments espoused against mandated vaccinations, so far, are not supported by sufficient facts or stronger arguments than those made in favor of vaccination.

Perhaps you have not done enough research then?

As mentioned in a post above, what is intertwined in this entire scenario is the removal by our government of the right for us, the people, to give our consent.

Thank you kindly.
 
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tall73

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Perhaps you have not done enough research then?

As mentioned in a post above, what is intertwined in this entire scenario is the removal by our government of the right for us, the people, to give our consent.

Thank you kindly.

Yes, our issue is consent.

Yet he has the right to be convinced by his research. He has the right to think the good of vaccines outweigh not vaccinating. But that is a conclusion he came to from study. He was allowed to do so.

We also have the right to study the issue and come to a conclusion. If his conclusion is correct then it should be possible to convince folks to be vaccinated. Despite my son having a reaction to a vaccine I still thought the benefit of vaccinating my next child was worth it.

However, that doesn't mean I will gladly line up for every vaccine they roll out. Frankly they are rolling out new ones all the time, and I want to see whether the benefits of each one outweigh the risks rather than giving that over to the government to oppose.
 
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The Cadet

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If Vaccines are safe and great, then folks should have no problem being convinced.

I wish. I wish it were really that easy. I wish we could sit Jenny McCarthy down in a room, show her a list of peer-reviewed science papers showing beyond any reasonable doubt that vaccines do not cause autism, and have her walk out saying, "Wow, that evidence is really convincing, thank you for changing my perspective!" If the world worked that like, it would be a better world.

But it doesn't.

The evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of vaccines being safe and effective. And yet, when presented with this evidence, antivaxxers do not change their minds. They double down. They have little to no interest in changing their minds based on the evidence. This is an issue the medical community has been struggling with - not because the evidence isn't strong, not because it's somehow nuanced or complex, but because antivaxxers refuse to listen to reason.

So given that, yeah, you'd think in an open marketplace of ideas, a drug that makes you immune to deadly diseases while having a maybe 1:250,000 chance of a severe (but non-lethal) reaction would be an easy sell. But that's just not the world we live in.

And by the way? You sure are offering up a lot of classic antivax talking points...

And companies who make them should not need the immunity they have now.

No such immunity is granted. If your case fails in the VICP, you are entirely free to pursue it in federal courts. Of course, the VICP has a far lower standard for evidence, and if your case fails there, it's unlikely to make any headway in federal court, but that's kind of your problem.

If you really believed vaccination worked you wouldn't have to worry about those who are not vaccinated.

There are a decent portion of people who are immunocompromised. The vaccine simply does not work for them, their immune system gains no benefit from it. The vaccines themselves are not 100% effective; the MMR jab, for example, boasts a 93% effectiveness rate at one dose, and a 97% effectiveness rate at two doses. But these vaccines don't just prevent you from catching the disease; they also prevent you from spreading the disease. If everyone gets vaccinated, there simply aren't enough vectors for the disease to spread. It's called herd immunity, and it's a pretty basic concept.

330px-Community_Immunity.jpg


This is part of why it's so important to get everyone vaccinated: the more people are vaccinated, the fewer vectors there are to spread disease to those people for whom the vaccine didn't take or who simply cannot get the vaccine. In essence, it's not just a matter of personal choice. By not vaccinating, you don't just put your health at risk. You put the health of everyone around you at risk. Hence why it's so important.

Of course they are potentially harmful to others which is why they spell out all the problems in inserts which doctors usually don't provide unless you ask for them.

Did you know that many people die in car crashes because they get stuck in their seatbelts, and can't free themselves? You know why we still mandate that people wear their seatbelts? Because the number of people whose lives are saved due to wearing a seatbelt absolutely dwarfs the number of people who die because of seatbelt use.

Yes, there is some risk involved. Just like in any medical procedure. But I can't name a single person who died due to a vaccine. The serious side-effects of vaccines are so rare as to be virtually impossible to trace them to the vaccine, meaning that we're already giving the vaccines a worse rap than they should get. Meanwhile, measles killed more than 114,000 last year: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

And those who want the benefits of those vaccines can be convinced.

So here's my question: do you consider these facts meaningful or important?
 
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brinny

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Yes, our issue is consent.

Yet he has the right to be convinced by his research. He has the right to think the good of vaccines outweigh not vaccinating. But that is a conclusion he came to from study. He was allowed to do so.

We also have the right to study the issue and come to a conclusion. If his conclusion is correct then it should be possible to convince folks to be vaccinated. Despite my son having a reaction to a vaccine I still thought the benefit of vaccinating my next child was worth it.

However, that doesn't mean I will gladly line up for every vaccine they roll out. Frankly they are rolling out new ones all the time, and I want to see whether the benefits of each one outweigh the risks rather than giving that over to the government to oppose.

As you stated, and i agree.

It is about consent.

Thank you kindly.
 
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tall73

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I wish. I wish it were really that easy. I wish we could sit Jenny McCarthy down in a room, show her a list of peer-reviewed science papers showing beyond any reasonable doubt that vaccines do not cause autism, and have her walk out saying, "Wow, that evidence is really convincing, thank you for changing my perspective!" If the world worked that like, it would be a better world.

But it doesn't.

The evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of vaccines being safe and effective. And yet, when presented with this evidence, antivaxxers do not change their minds. They double down. They have little to no interest in changing their minds based on the evidence. This is an issue the medical community has been struggling with - not because the evidence isn't strong, not because it's somehow nuanced or complex, but because antivaxxers refuse to listen to reason.

So given that, yeah, you'd think in an open marketplace of ideas, a drug that makes you immune to deadly diseases while having a maybe 1:250,000 chance of a severe (but non-lethal) reaction would be an easy sell. But that's just not the world we live in.

A. most people do decide to be vaccinated, so it is more the world we live in than you let on.

B. It is not always an open markeplace of ideas. Sometimes anti-vaccine folks are not allowed to give their opinions.

For instance the film Vaxxed was not allowed to be shown due to pressure at a film festival. That sort of thing just feeds the notion that the "system" is out to get folks.

http://www.today.com/popculture/robert-deniro-debates-autism-s-link-vaccines-today-show-t86136

And by the way? You sure are offering up a lot of classic antivax talking points...

I am offering up CONSENT talking points. I am for informed consent before you do something to me. If that shares a lot in common with anti-vaccine folks that should not be shocking. We agree on the issue of consent. In my case that doesn't mean I am anti-vaccine, or I wouldn't have taken vaccines and vaccinated my children.



No such immunity is granted. If your case fails in the VICP, you are entirely free to pursue it in federal courts. Of course, the VICP has a far lower standard for evidence, and if your case fails there, it's unlikely to make any headway in federal court, but that's kind of your problem.

A. they enjoy an initial level of immunity because they do not pay for any judgment from the VICP.

B. Many actions cannot be brought in the first place to civil court:

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOD...p6A-subchapXIX-part2-subpartb-sec300aa-22.htm


§300aa–22. Standards of responsibility

(a) General rule

Except as provided in subsections (b), (c), and (e) of this section State law shall apply to a civil action brought for damages for a vaccine-related injury or death.


(b) Unavoidable adverse side effects; warnings

(1) No vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action for damages arising from a vaccine-related injury or death associated with the administration of a vaccine after October 1, 1988, if the injury or death resulted from side effects that were unavoidable even though the vaccine was properly prepared and was accompanied by proper directions and warnings.


(2) For purposes of paragraph (1), a vaccine shall be presumed to be accompanied by proper directions and warnings if the vaccine manufacturer shows that it complied in all material respects with all requirements under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act [21 U.S.C. 301 et seq.] and section 262 of this title (including regulations issued under such provisions) applicable to the vaccine and related to vaccine-related injury or death for which the civil action was brought unless the plaintiff shows—


(A) that the manufacturer engaged in the conduct set forth in subparagraph (A) or (B) of section 300aa–23(d)(2) of this title, or


(B) by clear and convincing evidence that the manufacturer failed to exercise due care notwithstanding its compliance with such Act and section (and regulations issued under such provisions).


(c) Direct warnings

No vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action for damages arising from a vaccine-related injury or death associated with the administration of a vaccine after October 1, 1988, solely due to the manufacturer's failure to provide direct warnings to the injured party (or the injured party's legal representative) of the potential dangers resulting from the administration of the vaccine manufactured by the manufacturer.
 
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tall73

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There are a decent portion of people who are immunocompromised. The vaccine simply does not work for them, their immune system gains no benefit from it.
The vaccines themselves are not 100% effective; the MMR jab, for example, boasts a 93% effectiveness rate at one dose, and a 97% effectiveness rate at two doses. But these vaccines don't just prevent you from catching the disease; they also prevent you from spreading the disease. If everyone gets vaccinated, there simply aren't enough vectors for the disease to spread. It's called herd immunity, and it's a pretty basic concept.

And again, most folks do vaccinate because they understand that benefit in protecting others.

I have had family members who had compromised immunity. I don't expect other people to give up their informed consent because of a health condition that my family member has. Yes, I am very willing to convince them, and will try.




This is part of why it's so important to get everyone vaccinated: the more people are vaccinated, the fewer vectors there are to spread disease to those people for whom the vaccine didn't take or who simply cannot get the vaccine. In essence, it's not just a matter of personal choice. By not vaccinating, you don't just put your health at risk. You put the health of everyone around you at risk. Hence why it's so important.

Yes, and by vaccinating everyone you are putting folks at risk because there are known side-effects, some deadly. So neither camp avoids that problem. The groups actually in danger in both cases are fairly low, and most people are convinced to voluntarily vaccinate. Perhaps if the government started talking about informed consent and actually tried to earn it, instead of leaning towards forcing them they might even convince more.
 
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If vaccination works then those who choose to be vaccinated are safe. And if vaccines are harmful to some who cannot then take them, how can you say they are perfectly safe? Of course they are not perfectly safe, which is why they spell out all the problems in inserts which doctors usually don't provide unless you ask for them.

My son had a reaction to a vaccination. I am not buying the notion that anything the government wants to put into me is fine.




And those who want the benefits of those vaccines can be convinced. They can weigh whether the benefits outweigh the risks without the government thinking for them.
Vaccination works on a principle called herd immunity. That when a high enough percentage of a population is immunizated the whole population is immunized. Some people, like your son, cannot be immunized due to adverse reactions. For a small percentage of people immunization just doesn't work. Those people are protected by herd immunity. If enough people choose to forgoe vaccines herd immunity is compromised. When this happens people like you'd son are the ones at risk.
 
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tall73

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Meanwhile, measles killed more than 114,000 last year: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/


From your own source:

The overwhelming majority (more than 95%) of measles deaths occur in countries with low per capita incomes and weak health infrastructures.


Keep in mind, I am not arguing against vaccination. I am arguing for consent. I have not disputed the benefits of vaccination. I have disputed your right to override consent for a medical procedure.

But your calculations of how many die are based largely on areas where little vaccination happens. We are talking about places where vaccination usually does happen. If you really want to get folks' consent, then talk about the data and stop talking about overruling their free choice regarding a medical procedure. A government that imposes itself on your body against your will is not going to earn trust.
 
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tall73

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Vaccination works on a principle called herd immunity. That when a high enough percentage of a population is immunizated the whole population is immunized. Some people, like your son, cannot be immunized due to adverse reactions. For a small percentage of people immunization just doesn't work. Those people are protected by herd immunity. If enough people choose to forgoe vaccines herd immunity is compromised. When this happens people like you'd son are the ones at risk.

Yes, and you will note I continued to vaccinate my other children. By choice. Again, I am not willing to take away people's choice, even if there is some gain for me and my family. I am willing to try to convince them.
 
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