Cafeteria Catholics and alternative place of worship

[New_Wineskin]

Hi all,

When I was a Catholic there was something that puzzled me: Cafeteria Catholics: ie those Catholics that did not quite agree with the official teachings of the Church but still attended Catholic Church services (Mass, etc) and consider themselves Catholic.

Now that I'm a nothing, I think the reason could be simple: they might no believe as the Church does, but they neither find themselves at home in any other church

Thoughts?

From my discussions with non-fundy Catholics , I have seen two reasons and a combination of the two ...

1) The heirarchy and fellow Catholics have successfully placed that fear/guilt into them to be afraid of leaving the "true church" . They have no problem with disagreeing with the official ideas of the group but I am confident that they no longer know which ideas are not to be disagreed with and the consequences thereof . I place the blame on the hierarchy by not going through the important points of the catechism during Sunday sermons throughout the year . So , they feel safe with disagreeing but afraid of leaving .

2) Already stated in 1) . They have placed their faith in having been "baptized" as an infant . Many actually think that is what will ge them into heaven . Sure , they may saty in Purgatory longer for their many small sins that they don't want to give up . But , as long as they have that security blanket , they are ok .


what we have here is similar as to what happens in other religions ... we have the fundemental practitioners and the more liberal element .

 

[Trento]

Why do the Cafeteria Catholics and Protestants Hiding in the RCC stay?




- Josiah




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One must be like a child to receive the kingdom of God. But what is it like to be a child?

St. Augustine said,

“If you should ask me what are the ways of God, I would tell you that the first is humility, the second is humility, and the third is humility. Not that there are no other precepts to give, but if humility does not precede all that we do, our efforts our meaningless.”
To see Christ under the appearance of bread, we must know and see that God Himself is humble enough to be under that appearance and if God is humble, and we are less than God, then we must do the same.

A factor of humility is to see ourselves as fallible beings. To see ourselves as fallible beings means that we must leave room for error. Catholics must always recognize this as one of the major principles of humility. We can tend to fall away from the faith thinking that what we believe is right even though the Pope and the whole Church disagrees with us. This is what got the heretics to fall away. This is also what many proud say. The proud say, “You Catholics need a man to interpret the Word of God for you.” Only a humble person can ever be a truly Catholic since he must humble himself to accept Church teaching. One cannot accept Church teaching if he thinks high of himself. He will say to himself, “Why do I need the priests, the Pope, and the Church if I have everything and all I need is God?” The fact is that he does not have everything.


To love is to submit ourselves for the good of another. One cannot do this if he thinks highly of himself; that he is too good to do this. A faithful Catholic will have the humility to accept the Church’s teachings even if it does not seem right to him. He must see that the Church is greater than he is and that he can err in his thinking. He must not be the judge of Councils, Encyclicals, and Popes, but that the Councils, Encyclicals, and Popes judge him. He must fit into the Church’s standards, not that the Church must fit to his.
​

 

[wiselife]

Trento, the problem with that, it's the anthem of the SED (East German Communist Party) "Die Partei hat immer recht" The party is always right (and I'm not kidding that's the actual anthem). Those who disagree are not being good Communist enough.

The same goes for the Bible too or the Koran or the Kitab i Aqdas for that matter. If you cannot challenge your sources, then...

I mean if you trust the Catholic Church, that's is; if you trust the Bible (and the Bible alone) that is too. Unless you have the humility to accept the possibility that everything you trust, including the Bible and your internal feeling of communion with God then you cannot dialog with anybody outside your circle.

 

[wiselife]

Important discussion. Some of my thoughts, as one who "left" Catholicism...


First, on who is and is not "CATHOLIC." The following is a post of mine about what my Deacon taught us:







Why do the Cafeteria Catholics and Protestants Hiding in the RCC stay?


I don't think there's any one reason; they vary from person to person.

For some, it's cultural. Catholicism is just so much a part of their roots, their heritage, their culture. While they'd probably feel remarkably "at home" at a conservative/traditional Lutheran or Anglican church, the word "Catholic" doesn't appear on the front sign and so it's just not THEIR heritage. Heritage plays a part in all denominations, not just Catholic. And it can be a big factor in holding people.

For some, they just aren't aware of any other denomination with which they agree (more, anyway). This may well be because they've never investigated the matter. In reality, their views may be MUCH more in line with Anglicanism or Lutheranism or some other group - they just aren't aware of that reality.

It's easy (at least in most parishes). There is a sort of "don't ask, don't tell" praxis at work in Catholicism. When I spoke with my pastor before "leaving", I reviewed my studies and things - and he was very impressed and thanked me for all my extensive and honest efforts to understand Catholicism, and noted that it's not common. And I told him that I probably agree with what I learned maybe 95% of the time. He laughed and said that's "a whole lot better than most Catholics - maybe even Catholic priests!" I know he's right about the first part, I have no idea about the clergy. See, to all my Catholic teachers, and I think maybe even my priest, agreeing with SOME things (in my case, nearly all things) was good enough - even though I disagreed with the foundational point of the denomination: that Jesus founded it and thus it CANNOT be wrong in matters of faith/morals and thus we all must accept WHATEVER it (and it itself alone) says - "with docility." OBVIOUSLY, I didn't do that or I'd agree with 100% of Catholicism, not because I'd studied it but because the RCC proclaimed it. I disagreed with the foundational, key aspect of the RCC and thus was NOT "Catholic" - and yet, virtually all (except that deacon!!!!!) seemed to suggest I should stay. I witnessed the "don't ask, don't tell" often. For example, many of my Catholic friends disagreed with the RCC's position on the Eucharist at LOT more than I do - they just kept their mouths shut (at least at church). I jsut had problems with that praxis. I made an appointment with my priest, told him EXACTLY what my views are - and why. And asked for his counsel. He told me to not participate but to come forward, arms crossed for a blessing. So I did. For me, it's an integrity thing. I'm just not okay with the "don't ask, don't tell" thing.


What about the ones that leave?

Stats say that 30,000,000 Americans are former Catholics. MOST of them just stay home on Sundays. MOST have not moved to other Christian churches, they just left "organized Christianity" entirely - preferring to not learn or grow or worship but to go to the swap meet or whatever instead. America is FULL of these. So is nearly every Catholic nation on earth. I find that sad. Profoundly sad.

Such as NOT an option for me. I eventually ended up in Lutheranism. I found just about all of the 95% of Catholicism I loved and agreed with, but not the 5% I did not. And I found a spirit of humility, community and accountability that all was in sharp contrast to what so often bothered me in Catholicism. It proved to be a much better "fit" and a much greater blessing. But changing requires humility, work and guts. It's not easy to study or to visit strange churches.




That's MY perspective and story.....


Pax


- Josiah




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What if your deacon was wrong and people like Hans Küng or Sobrino are right?

Just food for thought.

In any case I don't agree with Lutheranism either.You're lucky.

 

[Giver]

One must be like a child to receive the kingdom of God. But what is it like to be a child?

St. Augustine said,

“If you should ask me what are the ways of God, I would tell you that the first is humility, the second is humility, and the third is humility. Not that there are no other precepts to give, but if humility does not precede all that we do, our efforts our meaningless.”
To see Christ under the appearance of bread, we must know and see that God Himself is humble enough to be under that appearance and if God is humble, and we are less than God, then we must do the same.

A factor of humility is to see ourselves as fallible beings. To see ourselves as fallible beings means that we must leave room for error. Catholics must always recognize this as one of the major principles of humility. We can tend to fall away from the faith thinking that what we believe is right even though the Pope and the whole Church disagrees with us. This is what got the heretics to fall away. This is also what many proud say. The proud say, “You Catholics need a man to interpret the Word of God for you.” Only a humble person can ever be a truly Catholic since he must humble himself to accept Church teaching. One cannot accept Church teaching if he thinks high of himself. He will say to himself, “Why do I need the priests, the Pope, and the Church if I have everything and all I need is God?” The fact is that he does not have everything.


To love is to submit ourselves for the good of another. One cannot do this if he thinks highly of himself; that he is too good to do this. A faithful Catholic will have the humility to accept the Church’s teachings even if it does not seem right to him. He must see that the Church is greater than he is and that he can err in his thinking. He must not be the judge of Councils, Encyclicals, and Popes, but that the Councils, Encyclicals, and Popes judge him. He must fit into the Church’s standards, not that the Church must fit to his.
​

You don’t see how nasty Agustine was being? What a put down to anyone who disagreed with what the Church taught. Wow! One is not humble if they see things differently. Now when a prophet gets a word from God to give to the Church, he is already judge as not humble and of course not worthy to be listened to. It is No wonder there are not any prophets in the Catholic Church.

That was one of the most manipulative twisting writings I have ever read.

People want to keep control of others so they write garbage like that to put guilt on people to keep them quite and that way keep control. Then The Church makes a saint out of the person to try to validate what he or she writes.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Excuse me, please note when Augustine is quoted as saying 'You Catholics" that the reader must understand in those days Catholics=Christians, the person saying "You Catholics" in this dialogue is not a Baptist or Methodist or Lutheran, they are non-Christians saying "You Christians".

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

One must be like a child to receive the kingdom of God. But what is it like to be a child?

St. Augustine said,​

“If you should ask me what are the ways of God, I would tell you that the first is humility, the second is humility, and the third is humility. Not that there are no other precepts to give, but if humility does not precede all that we do, our efforts our meaningless.”

To see Christ under the appearance of bread, we must know and see that God Himself is humble enough to be under that appearance and if God is humble, and we are less than God, then we must do the same.​

A factor of humility is to see ourselves as fallible beings. To see ourselves as fallible beings means that we must leave room for error. Catholics must always recognize this as one of the major principles of humility. We can tend to fall away from the faith thinking that what we believe is right even though the Pope and the whole Church disagrees with us. This is what got the heretics to fall away. This is also what many proud say. The proud say, “You Catholics need a man to interpret the Word of God for you.” Only a humble person can ever be a truly Catholic since he must humble himself to accept Church teaching. One cannot accept Church teaching if he thinks high of himself. He will say to himself, “Why do I need the priests, the Pope, and the Church if I have everything and all I need is God?” The fact is that he does not have everything.​

To love is to submit ourselves for the good of another. One cannot do this if he thinks highly of himself; that he is too good to do this. A faithful Catholic will have the humility to accept the Church’s teachings even if it does not seem right to him. He must see that the Church is greater than he is and that he can err in his thinking. He must not be the judge of Councils, Encyclicals, and Popes, but that the Councils, Encyclicals, and Popes judge him. He must fit into the Church’s standards, not that the Church must fit to his.​

​

1. Augustine said, "Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if they err in anything and their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God." (De unitate ecclesiae, chp. 10)


2. Trento, then evidently you agree with my deacon. And with the decision of many Catholics to leave. Either one accepts WHATEVER that one denomination says because the self-same so demands, or....


3. I understand the point of humility, what I don't understand is how self claiming that self is infallible/unaccountable and that all must accept whatever self alone says as if Jesus is saying is, I don't understand how that is "humble." Can you explain to me how the RCC's claim (CCC 87, etc., etc., etc.) are examples of humility?



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