black mass this month in OKC

[vespasia]

I suspect from the news reports that the Mental Health route was the right route to have gone down in the case of the person who destroyed the monument. I suspect the press coverage of the area will attract more like him.

Unlikely to have been from Mesners little hanger-ons, they may be a twisted bunch but they do not have a embodied notion of satan from a Christian pov. Might be a tad closer to the Jewish notion of a legal adversary given their MO.

 

[murjahel]

All satanic worshippers would need be 'mentally unhealthy'. It does not make sense to worship a being that hates, wants to kill humans, mocks and blasphemes a loving God. That is a definition of a sick mind. Yet, despite their mental imbalance, they do know right from wrong, and are held accountable for their choice by this loving and just God.

So, being mentally ill does not justify nor make righteous their choice made by a mind capable of having chosen the right way instead of the evil way they have chosen.

All of us, when saved, are to be given a 'transformed' and 'renewed mind'... It is given fruit of the Spirit, and is transformed toward the mind of Jesus. It is a long, never-ending trip toward the 'mind of Christ', and we still slip up from time to time, but no longer are we deranged, and crazy enough to defend and prefer the devil.

 

[vespasia]

Whilst the majority of folk with serious forms of mental illness retain a moral awareness not all do.

When a persons mind has left reason some way behind, perhaps due to a psychotic episode or a grandiose delusion, that can be the point they become far less able to distinguish good from bad, wise from unwise and so on. If they could they would not need to be sectioned [retained] under various countries mental health legislation for their own safety. A few may need to be detained for others safety too.

Sometimes a seeming obsession with 'satan' or 'God' to the exclusion of all else for that matter really is a symptom of a possible severe mental illness rather than the cause of it.

 

[mourningdove~]

I noticed this:

"“He claimed he got out of his car, urinated on the monument, and then ran over it and destroyed it,” said secret service agent David Allison in Oklahoma City. “He said Satan told him to do it, and that he was a satanist.”

Seems like it was somewhat premeditated in that he stop the car, urinated, then got back into his car and ran over the 10 commandments monument.

Going to read the article again later and see what else I can find out. I'd particularly like to know if he was Scitzophrenic and/or a satan worshiper.

This satanist is diagnosed bipolar, according to this article:

Devil made him do it: Oklahoma's Ten Commandments monument destroyed - CBS News

 

[murjahel]

Those who have a mental illness making them totally unable to know right from wrong, would need a healing, and of course, God would not refuse to heal one unable to choose Him...

Far more likely, is that the mental illness started via rejection of Jesus, and progressed more and more, like a 'reprobate mind'. Mental imbalance caused by chosen sin, chosen rebellion against God is often talked about in the Bible, as in Romans 2...

Also see Ephesians 4:17-19:
“...walk not as other gentiles walk, in the vanity of mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart... who being past feeling, have given themselves over unto lasciviousness to work all uncleanness with greediness.”

That passage well describes the insanity, as found in Satanists, witches, and in all who reject Jesus for some other god.

The ‘vanity of mind’ means that thoughts are totally worthless. They do not have thoughts that are productive to their spirit, they do not accomplish any spiritual good with their minds.

The ‘understanding is darkened’ making it like being in a dark room, and what is apparent, if the lights had been on, is totally missed due to the darkness of their minds.

They also are said to be ‘alienated from the life of God.’ This means that they the blindness means separation, alienation, estrangement from God. God is light, and in Him is no darkness, so if some walk in darkness, cannot see, then, God is not walking with them, and the life and strength, the wisdom and discernment, that would come with a walking with God is absent from those who are spiritually blind.

The passage above also speaks of the ‘ignorance’ that is ‘in them’. There is a worldly knowledge, that some brag upon, with degrees, and doctorates, and proof of much study. Yet, if one is spiritually blind, they are void of real knowledge of the eternal, and they are ‘ignorant’ despite the degrees and titles.

The passage speaks also of being ‘past feeling’. This refers to an emotional breakdown in the person. They do not feel compassion for the sinner, for the weak, for the hurting. They can do immense harm and hurt to people, be insulting and abusive with ease, for there is not the emotion of guilt, shame, and remorse, as there is in people who walk in the light of God’s grace and mercy.

The passage mentions, that spiritually blind people, also have ‘given themselves over unto ‘lasciviousness’. Lasciviousness is not always a thing that is sin of itself, but it is the deed that makes one weaker, and leads to sin. So to purposely do things that make one too weak to avoid sins, is lasciviousness. The spiritually blind do not realize that this deed or action, may not be sin, but if they do it, their weakness being increased by such, is going to lead them into things that are definitely sinful. Therefore, willful lasciviousness is sinful. The spiritually blind, not seeing the danger in the path, travel it and then wonder how they were so weak they sinned.

The spiritually blind, finally get to the place where they ‘work all uncleanness’. This refers to the things that all of us know are sinful., The spiritually blind, in this final stage of the blindness, have become so depraved due to the long time of darkness, that they sin horrible, shameful sins, not realizing that they are the ones in darkness, and others see the shame of such sins, in better detail, for they are in the light.


These shameful, unclean sins, are done ‘with greediness’, we are told. The desire to gain, the desire for carnal mammon, the desire to prosper in earthly things, becomes their motivation, instead of the desire for heavenly approval and reward.

Yes, mental illness is a common cause, probably the main cause of satanic worship, & witchcraft rejection of the true God. One has to have 'vanity of mind' and 'ignorance' etc... to make that kind of choice. After that choice, they mind progressively becomes more and more ignorant and perverted. Many Satanists end in jail or dead, for stupid crimes... Charles Manson, etc...

The one who drove into the ten commandments statue was doing the bidding of that evil voice of a devil, and never fully considered the consequences, or how stupid and crazy the obedience to that devil's voice was...

 

[vespasia]

Bi-polar and has not been taking his meds. Oh crumbs.

Get to deal with that in pastoral settings and it always ends up with the person needing to be in hospital when they are totally unaware they are manic or on home treatment if they have managed to hold on to a thread of rational thinking.

The time to look at restitution for the damage he has done is once the bi-polar is more stable and he is made aware of what he has done.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Bi-polar and has not been taking his meds. Oh crumbs.

Get to deal with that in pastoral settings and it always ends up with the person needing to be in hospital when they are totally unaware they are manic or on home treatment if they have managed to hold on to a thread of rational thinking.

The time to look at restitution for the damage he has done is once the bi-polar is more stable and he is made aware of what he has done.

This is a pretty accurate evaluation.

I think the guy was probably in a bad way because of their medication. If they stopped 'cold turkey' that's very bad. If they just aren't taking them at all, then that's very bad.

I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall during the interviews.

 

[mourningdove~]

This is a pretty accurate evaluation.

I think the guy was probably in a bad way because of their medication. If they stopped 'cold turkey' that's very bad. If they just aren't taking them at all, then that's very bad.

I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall during the interviews.

Oh yes. Quite some interesting conversations they must surely be having with him ...

And being bipolar does not negate the fact that the man is a satanist.
He still may very well be, since he's professed to be and we know there are satanists in OKC.

Just like when a Christian is diagnosed bipolar.
The Christian may sometimes go off his meds, and his behavior can make his testimony to look abit 'wobbly' at times to the rest of us, but it doesn't negate the fact that he is a Christian.

The man sounds dangerously ill. Hope someone(s) there are able to reach and help him.

 

[vespasia]

Claims to be but I doubt he can explain why. I doubt even more, unless he is an Ivy League graduate, that he has any connections with said group.

I have known more than a few in pastoral situations who have claimed to be satanists et al simply because that is easier for them to accept and live with than admit the visual and audiotry halucinations are part and parcel of being very [mentally] ill.

Trouble is that this little group of Harvard grads, who are behind all this press furor, tend to be far more intrested in causing debates by arguing black is white. At the heart of it seems to be an intent to unmask the religious pluralism they see when the state says no religion is schools then christians campign for Christianity in schools but are agianst other faith models being included. Thats less likely to happen here as religion is part and parcel of the UK education system. As I live in the UK I formally studied the UK political structures rather than the US's.

They intend to hold their antics up as mirrors reflecting the unthinking fears of the majority. I think they could and should learn from Medway and others actively involved in real dialogue instead of using the press to score cheap points by alarming ordinary people with their shock antics.

 

[mourningdove~]

The Satanic Temple is committed to erecting a Baphomet statue near the Ten Commandments monument, and stated that their plans will proceed if the monument is rebuilt.

"To be clear, The Satanic Temple will not seek to erect its monument unless the 10 Commandments is restored," Temple spokesperson Lucien Greaves said in a statement.

"Oklahoma City has the option to wait until the ACLU's case regarding the legal status of the 10 Commandments is resolved before it permits its replacement. However, if the 10 Commandments is immediately reconstructed, our monument will be ready for unveiling quite soon."

~ Lucien Graves, spokesperson for The Satanic Temple

Complete article:
Ten Commandments monument destroyed by alleged Satanist | Christian News on Christian Today

 

[FireWithin]

I wonder if Lucien Graves is his birth name. Sounds like he's read too many fantasy novels.

That wasn't charitable of me. I just get angry at where we are headed...

 

[murjahel]

Whether he is a 'satanist' or not... is up to one's interpretation.

For instance, in Christianity, we find cessationists who do not think charismatics are Christians, and charismatics who do not feel cessationists are Christians (by the way, I hope there are some of each that are Christian)...

Calvinists have a hard time with arminians, arminians have a hard time with Calvinists (by the way, I am in the middle...)...

The same thing we find in 'witchcraft' and 'satanism'.

If one coven of witches worship the devil, and others worship 'mother earth' or gaia, they both claim the other group are not really witches.

In Satanism, there are child sacrificing and non child sacrificing ones... and both claim the other are not really Satanists.

Some argue the point over and over, in all these groups... Personally, in Christianity, I have ministered to non charismatic, charismatic, protestant, catholic, non denominational, etc etc... and found good Christians in all the groups, and some I wonder about in all of them too... I do not attend meetings of covens or satanic masses... but I have done much ministry of salvation to Jesus to various ones' outside their groups...

We find the same denial of anyone caught in shameful behavior in Satanist and wicca, with some denying that some are really what they say...

It is usually the ones who get caught in something illegal, immoral, shameful, politically incorrect, and all the rest want to deny that the guilty and caught one is of their group...

So, if the guy claims to be a Satanist, claims to be hearing from some spirit not of the Trinity, I will believe he is one of some group... then I watch to try to identify which group of Satanists the person is a member of... or if he/she is a 'non denominational' Satanist...

Usually, the caught ones are portrayed as a 'lone wolf' or a 'mental issue' that none of the other groups want to claim...
Personally, I think all Satanists have a mental issue... I would not call their beliefs in any of the groups to be sane...

 

[mourningdove~]

I wonder if Lucien Graves is his birth name. Sounds like he's read too many fantasy novels.

That wasn't charitable of me. I just get angry at where we are headed...

The man that goes by the name Lucien Greaves is Doug Mesner.
(There's info on the internet about this.)

And I understand your anger. I don't like where we are headed either ...

 

[vespasia]

Okay this group have now gainedmy attention; not sure if they warrent my full attention but I will continue asking amongst old friends.

'Lucien Graves' origionally began as a pseudonym for a small collective who wished to ridicule the double standards they see in the USA. It had started as a jest. Trouble is most involvedare young adultsso the methods they choose to do use were not necessarily mature ones.

The origional plan was to place an actor to play the public spokesperson part of 'Lucien' till one Doug Mesner turned up and offered to take it on. Mesner has his roots in the athiestic Church of Satan but decided it was not active enough for his own tastes. He spent time during his post grad studies studying the moral panic of the late 1980's & 90's. In theory he should have studied Medway and a few of the whistle-blowing Christian groups who bothered to investigate and shift the grain from the chaff of hearsay and gossip.He does not appear to have learned how to dialogue with those who hold opposing views to his own.

He has launched his own website and blog [not providing the URL here as it metatags and provides links into parts of the darknet] It is here his University studies and research into psychology and cognitive scuience are made available. He is certainly more eloquent than Bray. I can understand why CoS describe him as 'too clever for his own good'. To the best of my knowledge he has not been asked to leave CoS- yet. In those circles that translates as 'one to watch'. I have a horrible feeling his intellect is well into the top 99% of the population and that has made him more than a tad arrogant and ignorant of the needs, fears and concerns of the majority of ordinary folk.

His current two prime co-horts are NOT satanists and are NOT known as students of the occult. They appear to be intrested in that fun old thing -profit and gain aka the money god. Sadly I have seen Christian groups with similar charismatic [personhood not spirituality] leaders. This has the potential to become a nasty money absorbing cult for the leader fed by those who feel alienated from the society they live within. Ethically the use of psychology to manipulate the public for self gain is pretty bad

Looks like I will be spending the end of this week quietly talking to older folk who have known me for many decades about this small but very vocal group.

 

[murjahel]

Okay this group have now gainedmy attention; not sure if they warrent my full attention but I will continue asking amongst old friends.

'Lucien Graves' origionally began as a pseudonym for a small collective who wished to ridicule the double standards they see in the USA. It had started as a jest. Trouble is most involvedare young adultsso the methods they choose to do use were not necessarily mature ones.

The origional plan was to place an actor to play the public spokesperson part of 'Lucien' till one Doug Mesner turned up and offered to take it on. Mesner has his roots in the athiestic Church of Satan but decided it was not active enough for his own tastes. He spent time during his post grad studies studying the moral panic of the late 1980's & 90's. In theory he should have studied Medway and a few of the whistle-blowing Christian groups who bothered to investigate and shift the grain from the chaff of hearsay and gossip.He does not appear to have learned how to dialogue with those who hold opposing views to his own.

He has launched his own website and blog [not providing the URL here as it metatags and provides links into parts of the darknet] It is here his University studies and research into psychology and cognitive scuience are made available. He is certainly more eloquent than Bray. I can understand why CoS describe him as 'too clever for his own good'. To the best of my knowledge he has not been asked to leave CoS- yet. In those circles that translates as 'one to watch'. I have a horrible feeling his intellect is well into the top 99% of the population and that has made him more than a tad arrogant and ignorant of the needs, fears and concerns of the majority of ordinary folk.

His current two prime co-horts are NOT satanists and are NOT known as students of the occult. They appear to be intrested in that fun old thing -profit and gain aka the money god. Sadly I have seen Christian groups with similar charismatic [personhood not spirituality] leaders. This has the potential to become a nasty money absorbing cult for the leader fed by those who feel alienated from the society they live within. Ethically the use of psychology to manipulate the public for self gain is pretty bad

Looks like I will be spending the end of this week quietly talking to older folk who have known me for many decades about this small but very vocal group.

So, he is intellectually smart, according to you, but he is certainly spiritually dumb, to have all that intellect and still not realized there is a good God, so different from the evil satan.

He has obviously objected to the Bible's truth, that to me is prove-ably inerrant.

He has not experimented with a personal relationship with God, for even if he has met 'un-Christian Christians', a time with the real Jesus would make him realize that just as there are 'bad' Satanists there are some very fallible Christians.

But to come and test a relationship with Jesus would have convinced him.


Psalm 34:8 (KJV)
8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Okay this group have now gainedmy attention; not sure if they warrent my full attention but I will continue asking amongst old friends.

'Lucien Graves' origionally began as a pseudonym for a small collective who wished to ridicule the double standards they see in the USA. It had started as a jest. Trouble is most involvedare young adultsso the methods they choose to do use were not necessarily mature ones.

The origional plan was to place an actor to play the public spokesperson part of 'Lucien' till one Doug Mesner turned up and offered to take it on. Mesner has his roots in the athiestic Church of Satan but decided it was not active enough for his own tastes. He spent time during his post grad studies studying the moral panic of the late 1980's & 90's. In theory he should have studied Medway and a few of the whistle-blowing Christian groups who bothered to investigate and shift the grain from the chaff of hearsay and gossip.He does not appear to have learned how to dialogue with those who hold opposing views to his own.

He has launched his own website and blog [not providing the URL here as it metatags and provides links into parts of the darknet] It is here his University studies and research into psychology and cognitive scuience are made available. He is certainly more eloquent than Bray. I can understand why CoS describe him as 'too clever for his own good'. To the best of my knowledge he has not been asked to leave CoS- yet. In those circles that translates as 'one to watch'. I have a horrible feeling his intellect is well into the top 99% of the population and that has made him more than a tad arrogant and ignorant of the needs, fears and concerns of the majority of ordinary folk.

His current two prime co-horts are NOT satanists and are NOT known as students of the occult. They appear to be intrested in that fun old thing -profit and gain aka the money god. Sadly I have seen Christian groups with similar charismatic [personhood not spirituality] leaders. This has the potential to become a nasty money absorbing cult for the leader fed by those who feel alienated from the society they live within. Ethically the use of psychology to manipulate the public for self gain is pretty bad

Looks like I will be spending the end of this week quietly talking to older folk who have known me for many decades about this small but very vocal group.

I read he attended Yale. Not that that makes him smart, but might bear a little bit about his 'intellect' so to say.

 

[vespasia]

As I am an Alumna of the Russal Group in the UK so I will see if I can access any information on where he might have taken his post-graduate studies. There is nothing as scary as a bored high intellect let loose in a prarie filled with average ordinary people trying to live life as best they can. They just play mind games with sheeple and win.

Even I stopped doing that in my early teens - if only because shooting fish in a barrel was too easy. If only he had had the wit to contact the Templeton Foundation then he might meet someone intellectually capable to rubbing steel on steel.

For now I can only concur with you Tobeblessed; being intelligent does not always equate with common sense.

 

[vespasia]

Just one point- Mesner really does not have a theistic let alone christian pov on satan; possibly akin to humanistic atheidicy with more than a spin of discord.

 

[murjahel]

This man needs prayer... The Bible's explanation of satan is the correct one, and the Bible's revelation of Jesus, is confirmed by our relationship as Christians with Him. The Omniscient Holy Spirit is our Teacher, and His truths make Yale, and the world's education look lower than kindergarten.

Thank the Lord Who has given us the infallible Word of God, and then teaches us as Christians the real truth.

 

[mourningdove~]

News this Christmas season from Michigan ...

satanic Temple display at State Capitol:

'Snaketivity' display set up at Michigan Capitol draws supporters, opponents | MLive.com