Biblical support for gay sex? A simple question

You Reign

Servant to the Almighty
Oct 24, 2008
8
0
36
✟15,123.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
I think that the fact that it says " God gave them over to their shameful lust" puts it all into perspective. How many times in the Bible does it talk about giving into temptations of the flesh, committing fornication and acting/looking with lust and how wrong it is
 
Upvote 0

KCKID

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2008
1,867
228
Australia
✟4,479.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I think that the fact that it says " God gave them over to their shameful lust" puts it all into perspective. How many times in the Bible does it talk about giving into temptations of the flesh, committing fornication and acting/looking with lust and how wrong it is

You seem to refer that text to the same-sex couple down the street who chose a monogamous relationship by marrying one another. Ludicrous!

By the way, since you come across as knowing, what is the difference between being attracted to someone sexually and 'lusting'? I'm still waiting for some meaningful answer to that question. Also, since you want to put it into perspective, what is 'shameful' lust as opposed to 'regular' lust ...? :)
 
Upvote 0

OllieFranz

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2007
5,328
351
✟23,548.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You seem to refer that text to the same-sex couple down the street who chose a monogamous relationship by marrying one another. Ludicrous!

By the way, since you come across as knowing, what is the difference between being attracted to someone sexually and 'lusting'? I'm still waiting for some meaningful answer to that question. Also, since you want to put it into perspective, what is 'shameful' lust as opposed to 'regular' lust ...? :)

The Greek word ἀτιμίας, here translated "shameful" consists of the word τιμὴ, "honored" and the prefix ἀ-, "not," and means dishonored. It does not, however mean dishonorable. It is dishonored in the sense of being undervalued, not in the sense of being despised, although undervalued things often become despised.

Later in the same letter, Paul speaks of God as a potter who makes two pots from the same lump of clay. One is τιμὴ made for an honored purpose, the other is ἀτιμίας, made for a dishonored purpose. Still, it was made for a purpose, and its fulfillment is found in achieving that purpose. And there is no shame in fulfilling a dishonored purpose, since the fault, if one thinks in those terms, is not in the clay, which is the same clay used for the honored pot, nor in the pot which had no say in how the potter formed it. no shame at all as long it is fulfilling its purpose.

The picture Paul presents is that of the good china and the everyday dishes. But it is just as valid, and probably a better lesson if the second pot is not the second-best, but the poorest. Even if it is a chamberpot, the second dish is still fulfilling its purpose as ordained by the Potter.

The Greek word πάθὸς, here translated "lust" means emotions. The Greek philosophers, from whom Paul borrowed this example, saw Reason as the paramount virtue. And the way to achieve Reason was to subordinate all emotion to the intellect. This what they considered to be "natural," or in accordance with man's higher (Reasonable) nature.

All actions either had a rational basis, or they were "unnatural," a concept similar in effect to the Jewish concept of sin. In effect, but not necessarily in essence.

So the "shameful lusts" or "dishonored emotions" that are referred to, are those that Greek philosophers disapproved of. And they disapproved of them because they do not help a person develop Reason.

But if their purpose was never to help a person develop Reason, but something else altogether, something that they do achieve, then those that experience them are not vile, they simply have a different purpose to fulfill.
 
Upvote 0
B

brightmorningstar

Guest
To Olliefranz,
Your theology remarkably only has trouble with the translation of words which are negative towards homosexuality. The fact is Romans 1 as a whole clearly eliminates your individual word translations. It is intersting that you have no problem with the translation of pots or clay. For me the Bible translations are correct, your translations wholly inaccurate.

The natural and unnatural are in relation to man and woman who by all observable biology are compatible in sexual reproduction. Paul knows God's purpose in creation was man and woman to be united so, its obvious that man with man and woman with woman is not only un-natural in what people can see in God's creation, but also unnatural in God's creation purposes. Such views as you describe are the thinking that Romans 1 identifies as supressing God's truth.
 
Upvote 0

KCKID

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2008
1,867
228
Australia
✟4,479.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The natural and unnatural are in relation to man and woman who by all observable biology are compatible in sexual reproduction. Paul knows God's purpose in creation was man and woman to be united so, its obvious that man with man and woman with woman is not only un-natural in what people can see in God's creation, but also unnatural in God's creation purposes. Such views as you describe are the thinking that Romans 1 identifies as supressing God's truth.

Were Jesus and Paul 'unnatural' men, bms? Neither one of them fulfilled God's command to "go forth and be fruitful." Should they have, do you think, if only to drive home the point that marriage is between one man/one woman? What one might preach but not actively do doesn't really offer a good example of what is being preached, does it?

Could Paul have been 'gay', bms? Bishop John Shelby Spong believes that he was or could have been. While I don't know Spong's reasons for believing this (perhaps due to Paul's admission to being the chief of sinners as well as his carrying a particular burden, the nature of which he never disclosed) I'm sure the man is equal to you in regard to his Christianity.

Would Paul's being 'gay' (albeit celibate) affect how you feel about Paul, bms?
 
Upvote 0

Zaac

Well-Known Member
Nov 19, 2004
8,430
426
Atlanta, GA.
✟12,748.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Were Jesus and Paul 'unnatural' men, bms? Neither one of them fulfilled God's command to "go forth and be fruitful." Should they have, do you think, if only to drive home the point that marriage is between one man/one woman? What one might preach but not actively do doesn't really offer a good example of what is being preached, does it?

Could Paul have been 'gay', bms? Bishop John Shelby Spong believes that he was or could have been. While I don't know Spong's reasons for believing this (perhaps due to Paul's admission to being the chief of sinners as well as his carrying a particular burden, the nature of which he never disclosed) I'm sure the man is equal to you in regard to his Christianity.

Would Paul's being 'gay' (albeit celibate) affect how you feel about Paul, bms?


Paul was a sinner just like every other man. He could have called himself a blue-eyed hippo as long as he wasn't committing homosexual sin.

Fornication is fornication. And if someone wants to call themselves gay but not fornicate or lust, more power to them.
 
Upvote 0
B

brightmorningstar

Guest
To KCKID,
Were Jesus and Paul 'unnatural' men, bms?
I'll address your question but please show some courtesy and address my lats repsonse to what you wrote. Jesus Christ is the Word of God, you seem to treat Him as only fully man. Paul fulfilled Jesus Christ’s command to be celibate if not married. This has already been shown to you in 1 Cor 7 Matt 19. if you don’t believe God’s word you wont understand it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

KCKID

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2008
1,867
228
Australia
✟4,479.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

OllieFranz

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2007
5,328
351
✟23,548.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
KCKid said:
Where does Jesus command one to be celibate?

He does not command anything of the sort, but in Matthew 19, after refusing to argue with the conservative Pharisees about no-fault divorce, He spoke a little about marriage, and in the course of that conversation, He mentioned three types of people for whom a traditional marriage would not be mandated. One is eunuchs -- who have been maimed and can no longer father children, and may not be able to satisfy a wife (in a culture that was not big on foreplay, the fact that the things that usually constitute foreplay can be sexually fulfilling in their own right tends to be overlooked) The second is another group who were traditionally called by the same Hebrew (and Aramaic) name as eunuchs. In the AV, in the book of Matthew they are called "eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb." And Jesus adds a third category, which he calls "eunuchs for the sake of the Gospel. These are holy celibates, like Paul, and like the ideal that Catholic monks, nuns, and priests have striven for, and often achieved. Paul tells us that not everyone can acheive this kind of life, and so it is not a command.

In fact, one should not make a commitment to such a life lightly. The Bible does not forbid vows and other forms of commitment, but it makes it quite clear that they are a serious undertaken and to break such a commitment is a serious issue with God.

The Kol Nidre, the first prayer recited on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement is to ask God to set aside any vows and commitments that are sincerely made but which might not be fulfilled:
"All vows, obligations, oaths, and anathemas, whether called 'konam,' 'konas,' or by any other name, which we may vow, or swear, or pledge, or whereby we may be bound, from this Day of Atonement until the next (whose happy coming we await), we do repent. May they be deemed absolved, forgiven, annulled, and void, and made of no effect; they shall not bind us nor have power over us. The vows shall not be reckoned vows; the obligations shall not be obligatory; nor the oaths be oaths."
 
Upvote 0

You Reign

Servant to the Almighty
Oct 24, 2008
8
0
36
✟15,123.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
You seem to refer that text to the same-sex couple down the street who chose a monogamous relationship by marrying one another. Ludicrous!

By the way, since you come across as knowing, what is the difference between being attracted to someone sexually and 'lusting'? I'm still waiting for some meaningful answer to that question. Also, since you want to put it into perspective, what is 'shameful' lust as opposed to 'regular' lust ...? :)

Basically, the message I get from the Bible is, lust is wrong, it's pretty much the counter to love. You can lust after a woman by trying to hook up with her or whatever, but Jesus says that looking with lust is just as bad as committing it. Which makes sence, being a lustful person at heart goes against what Jesus was trying to teach us about Love.
So to answer your question, there is no such thing as shameful or regular lust
(the point is that it is shameful in itself). It isn't a Godly emotion so why would it be something someone purposefully conveyed in their perosna.

God Bless
 
Upvote 0

FaithLikeARock

Let the human mind loose.
Nov 19, 2007
2,802
287
California
✟4,662.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
Actually there is reign. You biologically have a lust, or a sex drive. Except in certain people, you will always have it. It will always be there. So you're going to have a natural lust. It's when you welcome it that it becomes a problem. Besides, a little bit of lust is almost necessary. The only way to completely avoid it is to never look at or talk to girls or girls who you find attractive. But most likely you're never going to find a person you're compatible with if you do that. That tiny bit of lust (it's called ATTRACTION) is necessary if you ever plan to find someone you can be with.
 
Upvote 0

You Reign

Servant to the Almighty
Oct 24, 2008
8
0
36
✟15,123.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
yeah i just read back over what i wrote...lol
it's human to lust, but as I said, it's not an emotion from God.
most places in the Bible where it talks about lust, I'm pretty sure it doesn't use the word in a positive sence.
as for what's "biological/genetic" well humans are all born into sin so how do we know that we haven't just contrived a fancy name for one of the sinful aspects of our personality?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FaithLikeARock

Let the human mind loose.
Nov 19, 2007
2,802
287
California
✟4,662.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
No, but reign suggested that looking with any lust is sinful. But really it's absolutely impossible. It's a behavior you can't control 100%. You can keep yourself from mentally undressing her which is what I'm sure Christ meant when he said that. But you're probably going to look at a girl sometimes and find her attractive. I highly doubt that's a sin since that's one of the way you find a woman you're compatible with.
 
Upvote 0

You Reign

Servant to the Almighty
Oct 24, 2008
8
0
36
✟15,123.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
Because God made our brains so unless you want to suggest that God created us to sin, some lust is inherent.
Adam and Eve were put out of the garden of Eden, thus committing mankind to sin, thus why Jesus dies so our sins could be forgiven
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

You Reign

Servant to the Almighty
Oct 24, 2008
8
0
36
✟15,123.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
No, but reign suggested that looking with any lust is sinful. But really it's absolutely impossible. It's a behavior you can't control 100%. You can keep yourself from mentally undressing her which is what I'm sure Christ meant when he said that. But you're probably going to look at a girl sometimes and find her attractive. I highly doubt that's a sin since that's one of the way you find a woman you're compatible with.
Yeah but that's what I'm saying about lust, it's not a "Godly" emotion.
I don't believe you find a partner by just looking around and being with anyone who is pleasing to your eyes.
"Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Matthew 5:28)
Which brings us back to the definition of lust, the Biblical definition mind you.
 
Upvote 0