This is (one of the reasons) why libertarian free will does not exist. Compatibilism all the way.
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Darklite,
How can you be sure libertarian free will does not exist? Are you saying that God determines our future free will actions? Would He not then be the author of all sinful and evil acts? How can it be that it is compatable that we are determined to do his overriding will and still be morally responsible? Is God's Soverign will overriding all our actions? If so I cannot be held accountable for something I had no control over!
Are we expected to love God without freedom to do so? Jesus said, If you love me keep my commandments. He did not say if you have faith in me you will keep my commandments. Love requires an ability to choose to do or not to do something. This is the risky part of love. Love chooses by its own volition. Automatons cannot love by choosing.
That is not a good analogy. The state of imprisonment is a temporal condition which depends on the number of years mandated in the prisoner's convicting veridict.
Are you trying to say that free will can also be periodical? If so, you are seriously creating your own interpretation, absolutely not deduced from what anyone can read in the Bible.
You are still failing to explain to me what do babies have to do with evil and guilty men and women who had to be destroyed. As I said before, I can understand god killing the men and women, but absolutely not the babies and toddlers.
How can god demand the same from the babies and, since they can't understand a thing they fail to obey, then god kills them like their parents? If you believe this makes sense, then you are seriously and willingly wrong.
Nice theory. Very original. Obviously, very yours.
Can any of this be deduced or inferred from the Bible?
Hi all,
I think this is my first post ever. I have to introduce myself as ex-christian/agnostic. My 'deconvertion' has happened very recently. I have posted a similar thread on a different forum, but since there seems to be more traffic on this forum, here I am .
Since free will seems to be a favorite concept for christians/theists to use as counterargument for anything, it would be great if we can make a list of all those instances in the Bible where God himself overrides free will, which clearly contradicts theists when they say "oh, God cannot get rid of hunger and evil because this would violate free will".
If free will is sooo important that God himself cannot violate it, how come he DOES violate it on various occasions in the Bible!?
I can quickly think of a couple, although I'm pretty sure there are more:
1. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he refused to let God's people go. There's no way around it, the Bible clearly says so. The moment god decided to do this, Pharaoh's free will was nullified and Pharaoh was doomed.
2. Anytime that God ordered the killing of entire cities, including their infants and toddlers, he was squashing those poor kids' free will in a vile way, since they were clearly not mature enough to be able to decide between good and evil. Yet God didn't stop to think about this for a second, "Kill them all" was his usual response for everything. Even poor animals who don't even have the capacity to think!!
Can you guys think of more examples?
Hi all,
I think this is my first post ever. I have to introduce myself as ex-christian/agnostic. My 'deconvertion' has happened very recently. I have posted a similar thread on a different forum, but since there seems to be more traffic on this forum, here I am .
Since free will seems to be a favorite concept for christians/theists to use as counterargument for anything, it would be great if we can make a list of all those instances in the Bible where God himself overrides free will, which clearly contradicts theists when they say "oh, God cannot get rid of hunger and evil because this would violate free will".
If free will is sooo important that God himself cannot violate it, how come he DOES violate it on various occasions in the Bible!?
I can quickly think of a couple, although I'm pretty sure there are more:
1. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he refused to let God's people go. There's no way around it, the Bible clearly says so. The moment god decided to do this, Pharaoh's free will was nullified and Pharaoh was doomed.
2. Anytime that God ordered the killing of entire cities, including their infants and toddlers, he was squashing those poor kids' free will in a vile way, since they were clearly not mature enough to be able to decide between good and evil. Yet God didn't stop to think about this for a second, "Kill them all" was his usual response for everything. Even poor animals who don't even have the capacity to think!!
Can you guys think of more examples?
The Bible is not a dictionary, but if you wish to go through a complete study of "freewill" as found in scripture the PM me.Misunderstand the definition of free will? Is there a definition of free will in the Bible that you can point me to?
The definition can be found in recorded word and in thought. In other words The definition is applied in scripture as I have described it. As I said earlier the bible is not laid out like a modern dictionary so you will not find "definitions" for every word or principle.Ahhh... YOU believe that definition, but that's clearly not a definition you can find in the Bible, is it?
The point is that GOD hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he was forced to sin by not letting god's people go!
In other words, Pharaoh sinned because God hardened his heart. Maybe Pharaoh would've let god's people go if God hadn't hardened his heart!
This is a response of a frighten man who believes that death is the end and that this life is as good as it gets. I say: Death is not the end it is only the beginning, and death only served to usher all of those children (And the rest of us) to the God that loves all of us more then any could possibly here on earth.Woe, remember we are talking about infants and toddlers here. They could NOT choose to sin, as they were not mature enough to discern between good and evil. I don't care about the adults being slaughtered. I mean, it makes sense if god wanted to kill them as sinners, but the innocent children and babies?? Come on!
You are joking, right?
If I have eaten meat, what does that have to do with anything?
1. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he refused to let God's people go. There's no way around it, the Bible clearly says so. The moment god decided to do this, Pharaoh's free will was nullified and Pharaoh was doomed.
nonsense.2. Not everything in the OT is from God. There are some Jews, who, being opposed to God, planted certain false accounts into the Scripture. For example, the supposed Scripture where God calls a bat a bird. If God is the Creator and knows His creation, why would He say this?
But he couldn't choose not to. That is where hte free will was taken away.I believe that you simply misunderstand what free will actually is.
I believe "free will" to be the ability to choose an action outside of the expressed will of God. In essence Free will is the ability to sin.
Free will is not the ability to do whatever one wants. If that were the case then gravity would be impeding upon my free will.
Even with Pharaoh's harden heart he could still choose to sin. As could all of those who were slaughtered... As far as the animals are concerned if you've ever eaten meat then, you shouldn't have much to say about that.
What's next?
2. Not everything in the OT is from God. There are some Jews, who, being opposed to God, planted certain false accounts into the Scripture.
And if God desires a relationship, then why is there so much written code in the OT? Clearly, these certain Jews who belong to Satan have added to or changed the Scripture.
Anyways, you can either say that the Christians wanted to make the God of the OT look like a loving God or say that the certain Jews who belong to Satan added to the Scripture. For all the law written in the OT is written code. Even so, Christianity is written code, a religion.