Bible Contradiction?

Cribstyl

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Why can't this remnant include those Jews who will join the church in the future and be saved? Why must it be only those who accepted the gospel in Paul's day?
Yes. But does this mean that all Jews who have ever lived will be saved as the following verse seem to imply: "And so all Israel will be saved.”...Rom 11:26?
Remember...Remnant is a word used to mean; "residue", "left over" or " the rest of them". In certain contexts it defines the COI (especially like Paul was in his zeal as a Pharisee) who betrayed and killed Jesus and the apostles Mat 22:6 — And the remnant took his servants, and entreated [them] spitefully, and slew [them].

The word also identifies the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ who were persecuted and martyred.
The word remnant is also used by John in Revelations figuratively. Rev 11:13; 12:17; 19:21.


In Rom 9 and 11 Paul was specifically talking literally about the people of his nation, whom he defined as "the ansestors of Abraham.
Rom 11:1¶I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
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Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

So what is meant by "all Israel will be saved.”...Rom 11:26?
Paul was being prophetic about a litteral fact, that the nation of Israel were blinded until all the Gentile comes into the Church. Then the nation of Israel would accepted Jesus Christ.
 
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Are not all Jews elected, many of whom are now dead?

No, not all Jews are elect. That's why only a remnant of all Jews will be saved (Romans 9:27)

The unelect Jews are those Jews who are not considered by God to be Israel: "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)..." (Romans 9:6-11).

Just as unelect Jews are not considered by God to be Israel, so they are not considered by God to be his children, or the children of Abraham, but the children of the devil: "They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God" (John 8:39-47).

(This is true not only about unelect Jews, but unelect Gentiles as well, for all of the unelect are considered by God to the children of the devil: "the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil" -- Matthew 13:38-39.)

Unelect Jews are not even considered by God to be Jews: "I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan" (Revelation 2:9); "the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie" (Revelation 3:9).

All of the elect, however, regardless of whether they are Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be Jews: "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God" (Romans 2:28-29). "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh" (Philippians 3:3).

Similarly, all of the elect, regardless of whether they are Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be Israel (Romans 9:6-24).

All Jewish Christians remain Jews and remain Israel: "I am verily a man which am a Jew" (Acts 22:3); "I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" (Romans 11:1).

All Gentile Christians have been grafted into Israel: "thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them" (Romans 11:17); "ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers ... Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens" (Ephesians 2:12,19); "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed" (Galatians 3:29).

It is necessary that all Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians be Israel, because all Christians are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31).

Zechariah 12:10 speaks of "the inhabitants of Jerusalem" at that time. There is no mention of every elect Jew that has ever lived being saved.

Elect Jews who lived in the past (like Paul) got saved in the past. Romans 11:25-28 refers to those elect Jews who have been spiritually blinded in unbelief until the second coming, and who will all come into belief and be saved at the second coming, just as Zechariah 12:10-14 shows Jews in Jerusalem getting saved at Jesus' second coming, when they see the returned Jesus in person.
 
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wayseer

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No, not all Jews are elect. That's why only a remnant of all Jews will be saved (Romans 9:27)

Paul is not talking to the Jews - he is talking to the Gentiles.

The reference Paul is making to scripture is to demonstrate to the Gentiles that they too could miss out on their salvation as illustrated by the Isaiah reference.

The unelect Jews are those Jews who are not considered by God to be Israel

A Jew is a Jew. Has God done an about face here for some reason?

If you are following Romans as some sort of condemnation on Israel then you have missed what Paul is saying. Paul is not condemning Israel.

Unelect Jews are not even considered by God to be Jews

You cannot use the NT to understand Paul - the NT had not yet been written - Paul did not have access to the NT.
 
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cyberlizard

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So what is meant by "all Israel will be saved.”...Rom 11:26?


ever read the Talmud... 'all Israel has a share in the world to come'... but the sages had defined Israel as those who live their faith from the heart, not a mechanical repetition of tasks allocated by Torah.

The true Israelite according to Jewish sources is the one who 'lives by putting his faith in to practice'. The righteous/just will live by faith (in Hebrew Emnuah/Faith is a verb). Hence practicing their faith/ doing their faith/or faithing.


Steve
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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“Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved.”...Rom 11:26.

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only a remnant will be saved.”...Rom 9:27.

Is there a contradiction here: Rom 11 tells us “all Israel will be saved”, meaning everyone, but Rom 9 tells us “only a remnant will be saved”, meaning only a few?

How do we make sense of these two verses that appear to be a contradiction?

There is no contradiction. Look at the context for Romans 9-11 as a whole.

In Rom 9:27 Paul quoted Isaiah, showing that not all Jews were saved (only a remnant). This quote supports his conclusion in chapter 9 that Israel "stumbled over the stumbling block." In other words the Jews of Paul's day did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. There are two parts to Israel - the remnant (believers) and the unbelievers.

In Rom 10, Paul develops the unbelieving part of Israel, because he follows this conclusion by stating it was his desire that the Israelites may be saved. Then in Rom 11, Paul began by asking the question, did God reject all of Israel? No, Paul replied, as Paul himself is a Jew and a member of the remnant, along with all Jews who have accepted Jesus as their Messiah.

In 11:11 Paul asked the question whether the unbelieving Jews have "stumbled beyond recovery?" No, he replied, they are only "partially hardened." Paul is not referring to the remnant of Jews who have already believed. The broken off branches in the olive tree example are unbelieving Jews, not the remnant of Israel. Paul said the broken off branches will one day be grafted back into the tree. In light of this Paul said that unbelieving Israel has experienced a partial hardening until the full number of Gentiles has come in, and so all Israel will be saved.

The "all Israel" refers to both parts of Israel that Paul has had under discussion from 9-11, both the remnant and the unbelieving majority. "All Israel" refers to future time - after the full number of Gentiles has come in - when the unbelieving Jews will turn to Jesus as their Messiah.


LDG
 
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Doveaman

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Exactly - as it applies to the matter under discussion. There was no NT at the time of Paul. Neither were their any 'Christians'. All that had yet to happen.
Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul (also called Paul), and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch...The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch...Acts 11:25-26.
 
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Doveaman

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I think it means that Israel is those who turn from their sins.

Isa 59:
20 “ The Redeemer will come to Zion,
And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,”
Says the LORD.

21 “As for Me,” says the LORD, “this is My covenant with them:
My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth,
shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants,
nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the LORD,
“from this time and forevermore.”
Okay. So it means all Jews who turn from sins will be saved, and not all Jews who ever lived?

And this would mean that all Jews who turn from their sins and be saved is only a remnant of all Jews who ever lived?
 
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Doveaman

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I see most of you, if not all of you, agree that all faithful Jews will be saved in the future when they are no longer hardened. I also agree with this.

But I am thinking that this "all" is only referring to the faithful Jews who will be living at that future time of Christ return, and not to all Jews who ever lived.

So then, if all Jews who ever lived will not be saved, but only the ones who are faithful when Christ returns, this means then that when Paul says "And so all Israel will be saved” he does not mean literally all Jews whoever lived, but only some (the remnant) who are faithful at Christ return.

So the "all" and the "remnant" are the one and the same faithful Jews. This is the only way I see it as not being a contradiction.

In other words, the "remnant" are "all" who will be saved and not all Jews who ever lived.
 
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wayseer

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Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul (also called Paul), and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch...The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch...Acts 11:25-26.

Paul wrote his letter to the Romans about 51 - 55 AD. Acts was written much later, possible late 60s.
 
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“Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved.”...Rom 11:26.

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only a remnant will be saved.”...Rom 9:27.

Is there a contradiction here: Rom 11 tells us “all Israel will be saved”, meaning everyone, but Rom 9 tells us “only a remnant will be saved”, meaning only a few?

How do we make sense of these two verses that appear to be a contradiction?


Time.

I am sick. I am well. Two different places in time.

Simple.


God can do the impossible.


Even raise the dead from a nation.
 
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