Belief not a choice?

[LostMarbels]

This topic has grabbed my interest because I do not fully understand this point of view. I fully intend to keep this conversation secular, and do not want to get into what we may or may not believe. Just would like to discuss this point of view about belief.

To me a belief is a propositional attitude or mental state , stance, take, or opinion about a proposition or about the potential state of affairs in which that proposition is found true for that individual. For me, to formulate an opinion, to take a stance, or construct a belief is a conscious act. It take a considerable amount of rationalization, and thought process to come to accept a belief. But then I am also of the nurture over nature camp concerning Pavlov's views.

I do see ones environment may contribute to ones views, and core beliefs, but that being said I still do not see how someone can be forced to believe what they themselves refute. So can you discuss with me what you mean belief is not a choice and why? Thank you for your time and consideration in this endeavor. And thank you in advance for keeping this conversation strictly to the point and secular.

 

[Ken-1122]

This topic has grabbed my interest because I do not fully understand this point of view. I fully intend to keep this conversation secular, and do not want to get into what we may or may not believe. Just would like to discuss this point of view about belief.

To me a belief is a propositional attitude or mental state , stance, take, or opinion about a proposition or about the potential state of affairs in which that proposition is found true for that individual. For me, to formulate an opinion, to take a stance, or construct a belief is a conscious act. It take a considerable amount of rationalization, and thought process to come to accept a belief. But then I am also of the nurture over nature camp concerning Pavlov's views.

I do see ones environment may contribute to ones views, and core beliefs, but that being said I still do not see how someone can be forced to believe what they themselves refute. So can you discuss with me what you mean belief is not a choice and why? Thank you for your time and consideration in this endeavor. And thank you in advance for keeping this conversation strictly to the point and secular.

For me, belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before. Once I become convinced something is true, I cannot choose to quit believing it; I must be convinced to quit believing it,.

Ken

 

[LostMarbels]

For me, belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before. Once I become convinced something is true, I cannot choose to quit believing it; I must be convinced to quit believing it,.

Ken

So what cognition do you feel is used in the formation of a belief?

I have a hard time understanding the reasoning of a belief not being choice. I understand you might not hold that view. I am hoping to come to some consensuses of what belief is. How do you come to your understanding of what is logical to form your belief?

 

[Ken-1122]

So what cognition do you feel is used in the formation of a belief?

I have a hard time understanding the reasoning of a belief not being choice. I understand you might not hold that view. I am hoping to come to some consensuses of what belief is. How do you come to your understanding of what is logical to form your belief?

Logical and reasonable evidence is what causes me to believe. I am unable to choose to believe something I know is not true.

Ken

 

[LostMarbels]

I would have to say I look at what is presented to me threw a filter of what I already hold to be true, and then try to find the logic behind what has been presented, and see if my beliefs need to be changed or amended.

I do not think you can be forced into a belief even tho I do accept social norms will influence ones beliefs. I also think someone could be lured into a belief, but I don't think that is what is meant.

 

[LostMarbels]

Logical and reasonable evidence is what causes me to believe. I am unable to choose to believe something I know is not true.

Ken

Are you telling me this entire "belief is not a choice" is the inability to chose what one understands to be false?

 

[LostMarbels]

Man... I was hoping this was some deep conversation about predestination or something.

 

[Ken-1122]

I would have to say I look at what is presented to me threw a filter of what I already hold to be true, and then try to find the logic behind what has been presented, and see if my beliefs need to be changed or amended.

If what you are told is illogic according to what you already hold to be true, and you can find no logic behind what is presented to you, can you choose to believe it anyway? Example; if Bill Gates offered to pay you a billion dollars to believe you could fly like a bird, even though this goes against everything you already hold to be true, and is a completely illogical belief; could you choose to believe it anyway?

I do not think you can be forced into a belief even tho I do accept social norms will influence ones beliefs. I also think someone could be lured into a belief, but I don't think that is what is meant.

I'm not talking about that; I'm talking about the ability to choose what we believe.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Are you telling me this entire "belief is not a choice" is the inability to chose what one understands to be false?

For me? Yes.

K

 

[Ken-1122]

Man... I was hoping this was some deep conversation about predestination or something.

Sorry to disappoint.

Ken

 

[LostMarbels]

All good.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Beliefs are logical conclusions drawn from knowledge and understanding of subjects. They're drawn subconsciously and are always subjective to what you know.

Say you believe the Sun rises in the west because you don't know much about directions or earth rotation. One you acquire knowledge about the axial tilt of the earth you'll know the Sun rises in the east and in turn no longer believe it rises in the west.

The more knowledge you obtain on a subject the more beliefs you can form or refine about it. They're just the brain subconsciously connecting dots for you.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

This topic has grabbed my interest because I do not fully understand this point of view. I fully intend to keep this conversation secular, and do not want to get into what we may or may not believe. Just would like to discuss this point of view about belief.

To me a belief is a propositional attitude or mental state , stance, take, or opinion about a proposition or about the potential state of affairs in which that proposition is found true for that individual. For me, to formulate an opinion, to take a stance, or construct a belief is a conscious act. It take a considerable amount of rationalization, and thought process to come to accept a belief. But then I am also of the nurture over nature camp concerning Pavlov's views.

I do see ones environment may contribute to ones views, and core beliefs, but that being said I still do not see how someone can be forced to believe what they themselves refute. So can you discuss with me what you mean belief is not a choice and why? Thank you for your time and consideration in this endeavor. And thank you in advance for keeping this conversation strictly to the point and secular.

I form beliefs on a presentation of information and how that information fits with my own experience. A suggestion that fire breathing dragons once existed (my daughter wanted to know whether they did and if I believed it) could well be valid, certainly a flying creature of prehistoric origin (we have been presented with fossil information on dinosaurs so that bit fits with my experience potentially) may have looked something like a dragon, but then I said to my daughter... I don't know what fuel it would burn, possibly a gas in its stomach, but then I said it would need to have an ignition system, or the necessary heat or friction required to get the heat to combust the gas, and of course the combustion causes an explosion, which would cause cellular damage. So I said based on that information I didn't believe fire breathing dragons existed.
I can't choose to belief they did exist because the information presented doesn't fit with my experience of reality. Of course someone could have a vision of a dragon, or imagine one and convince themselves, or think they saw one and share that experience, forming the belief in another if that person takes things on the word of another without their own inquiry.

 

[LostMarbels]

Beliefs are logical conclusions drawn from knowledge and understanding of subjects. They're drawn subconsciously and are always subjective to what you know.

Say you believe the Sun rises in the west because you don't know much about directions or earth rotation. One you acquire knowledge about the axial tilt if the earth you'll know the Sun rises in the east and in turn no longer believe it rises in the west.

The more knowledge you obtain on a subject the more beliefs you can form or refine about it. They're just the brain subconsciously connecting dots for you.

I don't know if I accept day to day general knowledge as a belief. I know the sun rises in the east. Kind of like I don't "believe" there is a computer in front of me right now. That is apparent. I'm thinking belief is almost a rationale, or some form of accepted construct.

 

[Hank]

I fail to understand the topic.
Belief is to accept something to be true without having proof, or are we are talking a different kind of belief? If not, I don't understand why there is no choice then to believe or not to believe. In short: belief has choice by default.

 

[LostMarbels]

If what you are told is illogic according to what you already hold to be true, and you can find no logic behind what is presented to you, can you choose to believe it anyway? Example; if Bill Gates offered to pay you a billion dollars to believe you could fly like a bird, even though this goes against everything you already hold to be true, and is a completely illogical belief; could you choose to believe it anyway?


I'm not talking about that; I'm talking about the ability to choose what we believe.

Ken

Sorry for taking so long to respond but as silly as at may sound I have been pondering the question. Can a person convince themselves to accept what is illogical and chose to believe it? I'm thinking with proper grooming, and attention to the "illogical" proposition one could make themselves accept the illogical. I'm wondering if this would be insanity, or self indoctrination of some sort.

 

[LostMarbels]

I fail to understand the topic.
Belief is to accept something to be true without having proof, or are we are talking a different kind of belief? If not, I don't understand why there is no choice then to believe or not to believe. In short: belief has choice by default.

I had quite a few people tell me belief was not a choice so I thought there was something to it. In an attempt to understand I asked the question because I didn't get it either.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

I fail to understand the topic.
Belief is to accept something to be true without having proof, or are we are talking a different kind of belief? If not, I don't understand why there is no choice then to believe or not to believe. In short: belief has choice by default.

That would be a belief formed on faith, as opposed to a belief formed on a presentation of information that fits with your reality, something you know. That is not a conscious choice, its a knowing. To form a belief on faith is to make a choice, the other is a belief formed on knowledge, you believe it because you know it.

A basic example would be. I believe I will wake tomorrow because waking up in the morning exists in my reality, the information presented fits with my reality. Its not a conscious choice I make, I know it happens because I’ve done it before. I also have faith that I will wake tomorrow, (because I don’t actually know because tomorrow hasn’t arrived yet) because that is belief without the proof of tomorrow, but I choose to hold that belief based on what’s occurred before. The faith belief is only a possibility because I may be wrong, hence the faith. I may be wrong and die today.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

I don't know if I accept day to day general knowledge as a belief. I know the sun rises in the east. Kind of like I don't "believe" there is a computer in front of me right now. That is apparent. I'm thinking belief is almost a rationale, or some form of accepted construct.

NO YOU'RE WRONG SEE I-... Oh wait what? Oh man... I'm wrong? That can't be right I'm me.

Self Parody aside you're right I've missed the mark here a bit. Common knowledge Can't be a belief, how does that work Grim?

Let's say belief is a blind educated guess based on knowledge and personal experience. A placeholder until confirmation of the positive or negative. A thought hypothesis if you will.

 

[Ken-1122]

Sorry for taking so long to respond but as silly as at may sound I have been pondering the question. Can a person convince themselves to accept what is illogical and chose to believe it?

I can’t. I can pretend to believe something, but at the end of the day I would know I were lying.

I'm thinking with proper grooming, and attention to the "illogical" proposition one could make themselves accept the illogical. I'm wondering if this would be insanity, or self indoctrination of some sort.

So going back to my original analogy, with such a person; a rich man like Bill Gates can offer him a billion dollars to believe he can fly like a bird, then have him commit suicide by attempting to fly off a cliff? I can’t imagine anybody being that delusional; but perhaps it could happen.

Ken