Bad Theology In Hymns

[No Swansong]

Ok-here is another that, at least for me, has serious problems. Here is the first verse and the chorus:

IS MY NAME WRITTEN THERE?

Lord, I care not for riches, neither silver nor gold;
I would make sure of Heaven, I would enter the fold.
In the book of Thy kingdom, with its pages so fair,
Tell me, Jesus, my Savior, is my name written there?

(chorus)
Is my name written there,
On the page white and fair?
In the book of Thy kingdom,
Is my name written there?

When He saves us, WE ARE SAVED. There is absolutely NO doubt that our names are there! If He is your Savior, then there is no need to ask this question!

Rich

Of course here you are touching on OSAS. Some would argue that it is possible to be saved and then lose salvation. (I am not making this argument mind you) But most in the Arminian tradition would not find this questionable at all.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

One I have questioned from time to time is actually a more modern song; Create in Me a clean Heart... we sing it with gusto at church but the line "take not thy holy spirit from me" has puzzled me... can the holy spirit be taken away from one who is a believer? No, if they are living a repentant life, I believe not. Outside of that... perhaps. takers?

I guess you would have to take that question up with David, maybe...'Create In Me a Clean Heart' is essentially Psalm 51 set to music.

 

[Sprint3]

oh brother Rich you know better and your Fanny Crosby example is pathetic.

Ever been heartbroken? How do you think Peter felt after he heard crowing? You dropped the ball big time

 

[Rich48]

oh brother Rich you know better and your Fanny Crosby example is pathetic.

Ever been heartbroken? How do you think Peter felt after he heard crowing? You dropped the ball big time

Ha! Deja vue, Jim? Really all, Jim and I have been through this in a Yahoo group, and basically, we have agreed to disagree.

I have not said that the hymns I have posted should not be sung; rather, that sometime, we should really look at what we are singing. The genre (hymn, praise and worship, or ccm) does not matter as to the lyrical content. If I feel the lyrics are questionable, I will say so.

As to the Fanny Crosby song (Jim is referring to Pass Me Not), that it is weak at best. I do not feel that it is not one of her better hymns, IMHO. Let me add here that I love her hymns! Also, let me say that cyberhymnal has recently added a lot of her lesser known hymns, and several of them are wonderful! They now have some 300+ of her hymns. Here is the link to listen to them:

http://cyberhymnal.org/bio/c/r/o/crosby_fj.htm

Rich

 

[Konnie]

I think someone pointed out that if you go to verse 3, you will see plainly that it clearly says:

Yes, my name is written there.

 

[Sprint3]

I think someone pointed out that if you go to verse 3, you will see plainly that it clearly says:

Yes, my name is written there.

Here are the second and third verses

Lord, my sins they are many, like the sands of the sea,
But Thy blood, O my Savior, is sufficient for me;
For Thy promise is written, in bright letters that glow,
“Though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them like snow.”

Refrain

Oh! that beautiful city, with its mansions of light,
With its glorified beings, in pure garments of white;
Where no evil thing cometh to despoil what is fair;
Where the angels are watching, yes, my name’s written there.


Once again, your problem with this hymn is what Rich?

Is it something that maybe context could cure?


Jim

 

[Rich48]

I did not mean to trample the hymn, but if, as both of you point out that there is a line

"Yes, my name is written there."


what is the reason for the question "Is my name written there" in the first place? Again, I did not say that the hymn should not be sung, but feel that it is not one of the better hymns. That was the point I was trying to make.

Rich

 

[Sprint3]

I did not mean to trample the hymn, but if, as both of you point out that there is a line

"Yes, my name is written there."


what is the reason for the question "Is my name written there" in the first place? Again, I did not say that the hymn should not be sung, but feel that it is not one of the better hymns. That was the point I was trying to make.

Rich

I can only take a guess, but most people I know have had a time in their life where they doubted their salvation. Perhaps this is that time put to song along with the truth affirmed that yes my name is written there?

 

[Watergirl]

I don't know it's bad theologically or not, but for just an awesomely bad song, nothing beats "God of Earth and Outer Space".

 

[david01]

Okay, let's revive this thread a bit. There are two areas of blatant theological error expressed in hymns in my view. The first is universalism and the second is praying to the Holy Spirit (or rarely to angels or Mary and the saints (as in Catholic hymnody)). For the first problem I suggest at least two hymns - John Greenleaf Whittier's (rarely sung) hymn, "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind" or the much more popular "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee" which is set to the Ode to Joy in the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. The music is marvelous and popular, but God is addressed as the unversal Father of all mankind with no thought as to His saving grace toward all who believe.

The second problem is most commonly found in newer hymns and choruses, although the RC church has a very long tradition of praying through hymns to individuals other than God the Father and God the Son.

Another issue that, in the past caused quite a lot of debate, was whether or not hymns should be written in the plural or in the singular. The thought was that the congregation is not an individual and is singing as a united body, whereas it is possible for a soloist to sing individually, but not corporately. Thus, the earlier hymn that was cited probably could have been worded, Pass Us Not O Gentle Savior, but it woud render the lyrics rather strange and meaningless.

 

[Rich48]

David

I may, or may not agree with you. Can you clarify a bit more what your objections to Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee are?

Secondly, I don't see a problem with songs that are in the plural rather than the singular. To express affection, worship or the like as a congergation, or multiple persons, is not wrong, IMHO. And the reason would be that "I" am a member of that group.

 

[david01]

Rich,

The original ode to joy by Beethoven, if you read the German lyrics, are pretty much what it says - a hymn of praise to joy. In it, Beethoven, or his lyricist, expressed some strong Universalist semtiments of the day. In the current hymn there remains some of the same sentiments, such as "brother love binds man to man." The idea that God is the universal father and therefore all men are brothers is true in a limited sense. However, because not all are believers in Christ, not all are brothers in the Christian sense of that meaning.

As for plural and singular, that debate raged throughout most of the nineteenth century and I have seen many hymns rendered in both forms. Only if one is terribly particular does it really matter, and I am not terribly particular so I joyously sing hymns either singularly or plurally.

 

[Rich48]

Ok--I am going to agree with you here. You make an excellent point here. This is very much like some scripture translations. Such as:

The KJV says:

Luk 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

But a better rendition of the orginal is like this:

Luk 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men in whom he is well pleased.

Now, I don't want to attempt to derail into a translation discussion! My point is that I agree with you. Not ALL are meant to be included, and hymns that suggest such are, as you point out, suspect.

 

[Keemah]

One I have questioned from time to time is actually a more modern song; Create in Me a clean Heart... we sing it with gusto at church but the line "take not thy holy spirit from me" has puzzled me... can the holy spirit be taken away from one who is a believer? No, if they are living a repentant life, I believe not. Outside of that... perhaps. takers?

***

Rich this is a good thread but as MFP said, we can get a little overzealous for no good reason. Not suggesting you have necessarily... I am a real theological policeman of sorts when it comes to worship music, and I have serious questions with a few songs... old and new alike. However I do have to check myself from time to time

When David penned the Psalm this was taken from, I've always believed he was thinking of King Saul, who the Lord did remove His spirit from, and he was praying the same thing would not happen to him because of his very grievous sin.

The song that bugs me the most is "Mansion Over The Hilltop." I love a lot of Mosie Lister songs, but to me, this one focuses on the "material" things we will receive, instead of the worship and adoration He deserves to get from us because of His sacrifice. The word "mansions" in John 14:2, is better rendered "abode" or "dwelling place." I want to focus on becoming a dwelling place or a mansion for Him, rather than on the one I will receive.

 

[Rich48]

When David penned the Psalm this was taken from, I've always believed he was thinking of King Saul, who the Lord did remove His spirit from, and he was praying the same thing would not happen to him because of his very grievous sin.

The song that bugs me the most is "Mansion Over The Hilltop." I love a lot of Mosie Lister songs, but to me, this one focuses on the "material" things we will receive, instead of the worship and adoration He deserves to get from us because of His sacrifice. The word "mansions" in John 14:2, is better rendered "abode" or "dwelling place." I want to focus on becoming a dwelling place or a mansion for Him, rather than on the one I will receive.

I will agree with you, but only in part. I love the song Mansion Over The Hilltop, but not because of the idea of a mansion, but rather, of the rewards we will receive in heaven. It is not the idea of getting a huge mansion, rather, the simple idea of a reward in heaven. That is a promise we can hold to! But yes, give me a simple leanto shed--I don't care--just let me live in His very presence forever!

 

[david01]

Yes!!! "Mansion Over the Hilltop" has always bugged me for the very same reasons. For several years some of my friends would sing it to me just because they knew I didn't like it.

 

[Rich48]

Yes!!! "Mansion Over the Hilltop" has always bugged me for the very same reasons. For several years some of my friends would sing it to me just because they knew I didn't like it.

Well, again, I don't have a problem with it, because it is speaking of the rewards we will recieve in heaven, and not really focusing on "the manson."

 

[david01]

My basic problem with it is that it encourages a misunderstanding in many English translations of John 14:2 and leads many to a materialistic expectation of heaven. Sure, there will be crowns and rewards, but as I read Revelation we cast them at the feet of the Lamb who made it all possible. My eternity in heaven will be spent in worship and adoration of the One who died for me, not in lolling around a big house just over the hilltop.

 

[Rich48]

My basic problem with it is that it encourages a misunderstanding in many English translations of John 14:2 and leads many to a materialistic expectation of heaven. Sure, there will be crowns and rewards, but as I read Revelation we cast them at the feet of the Lamb who made it all possible. My eternity in heaven will be spent in worship and adoration of the One who died for me, not in lolling around a big house just over the hilltop.

Agree. Obviously, the song refers to this verse in the KJV:

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

But, as you point out, we do not strive for a reward, but to praise Him. However, it is not wrong to expect Christ to be true to His word, and thus, I don't see anything wrong with this one. Look at the first verse:

I'm satisfied with, just a cottage- - -

It's not about the manson--it is about the reward for winning the race that Paul spoke about!

Mansion Over The Hilltop

Now, there are many other song/hymns that do give me much more concern! And we can continue from here

 

[Keemah]

Rich, I will have to think about what you are saying the next time I hear that song. Maybe it will help me like it better.