Back after long hiatus - Few questions for Christians

hedrick

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How can a class feasibly teach all creation stories?

I think it makes sense to teach reasonable amounts about the major religions. I'm not sure whether creation stories are always the highest priority.

Back in the 60's I learned about at least a couple of religions in school, not trying to get anyone to practice it, but under the assumption that we should understand and appreciate other people. I still think that makes sense.

We certainly never learned ID or anything like that. Biology taught biology, including evolution.
 
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mulimulix

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How long do you think it takes to teach a creation account?

I've taught all of the major accounts in a 30 min class some years ago. Have that many more been added since then?

Then, I'm confused. If you were to teach Creationism in school, it would have to be multiple periods/week, not one period/year. It can't be part of the curriculum if it's just one lesson. (Not that I want it to take up much of students' time).

I think it makes sense to teach reasonable amounts about the major religions. I'm not sure whether creation stories are always the highest priority.

Back in the 60's I learned about at least a couple of religions in school, not trying to get anyone to practice it, but under the assumption that we should understand and appreciate other people. I still think that makes sense.

We certainly never learned ID or anything like that. Biology taught biology, including evolution.

I agree with all that. Religion, whether true or not, is still a massive part of life and should be taught in schools.

Your last comment is interesting because many American groups lobby for ID to be taught in the biology class, but the most basic argument against that is that it's not biology. Just like the Big Bang shouldn't be taught in religion class, ID shouldn't be taught in biology class.
 
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drich0150

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Then, I'm confused. If you were to teach Creationism in school, it would have to be multiple periods/week, not one period/year.
Why?

It can't be part of the curriculum if it's just one lesson. (Not that I want it to take up much of students' time).
Aren't lessons apart of an over all curriculum?

I simply said I have taught what all of the world major religions version of origins record in one 30min class. I did not say everyone had to follow my example. I was simply pointing out that it did not have to be this exhaustive exercise you were making it out to be.
 
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razeontherock

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1. Do you want your country to become a Christian state; where all have to follow Jesus? You don't have to have a yes or no answer, but I'm interested to hear an answer; whatever it may be.

:wave: Hi! No I do not. I think that would pervert the Gospel. I also think it would pervert the intended foundation of this Country (which is being violated in enough ways without adding a challenge like this)

2. Do you ever have any doubt that you may be wrong about Jesus and Christianity? Furthermore, do you think there's any chance that there is no god?

I used to. When that stopped, I didn't realize that the change has happened frequently enough that it has it's own name. (Pretty sure I didn't know this term when you were last here) Beatific vision. It's the point where you can know G-d exists, and no longer need to exercise Faith for that much. This is a substantial difference, so people that insist such a thing can't be known can be sincere in their idea; they're just not in a good position to speak on this issue. (Questioning would be better)

3. (Creationists only) What is your stance on teaching creationism in schools? Should it be only in religion class or also in science class?

I'm not a creationist, but my gripe with the way things are currently done is what's known is still being over-stated. I'm not even a supporter of "teach the controversy," but young minds are stifled by the false impression given, of what is supposedly known, and in any unified sense. The fact is a great deal is controversial, and remains to be discovered. If that weren't hidden, more talented students would be drawn towards careers in the sciences.
 
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razeontherock

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I agree, but there is a large proportion of Christians who would disagree with you.

This is referring to those Christians who would like to (somehow) MAKE others become Christian. What do you suppose the proportion of such people are, out of the whole of Christianity? (I take it this is pure opinion)
 
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razeontherock

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I agree that the society of 50/60 years ago was a lot safer, but I completely disagree that it is for the reason of moving away from Christian values. The reason I believe this is because the vast majority of the prison population is full of Christians. I'm not using this to say Christians are bad people; I'm saying that if you were right, I would have thought there would be an unusual amount of non-Christians in prison.

This doesn't really speak to "Christian values." Or if it does, can you explain how?

People in prison generally aren't there for following the rules.
 
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razeontherock

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I agree. I'm also disappointed that there aren't forums for debate. I get the feeling that plenty of people in this forum would like one; including Christians and non-Christians.

Oh, debate happens plenty! ^_^ You're just not allowed to mock Christianity, or God. Attempting to prove it "wrong" is sometimes enforced as the same thing, and is seen as GA, (general apologetics) which I guess you know was shut down long ago. Next door in CWR is one place to debate various religions, and that happens a good bit in the society section too.
 
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mulimulix

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Why?


Aren't lessons apart of an over all curriculum?

I simply said I have taught what all of the world major religions version of origins record in one 30min class. I did not say everyone had to follow my example. I was simply pointing out that it did not have to be this exhaustive exercise you were making it out to be.

I mean that if all the lobbyists wanted was a single lesson to be devoted to teaching creationism, I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. What I believe they want is for many lessons, throughout the year, to be on Creationism.

I'm not a creationist, but my gripe with the way things are currently done is what's known is still being over-stated. I'm not even a supporter of "teach the controversy," but young minds are stifled by the false impression given, of what is supposedly known, and in any unified sense. The fact is a great deal is controversial, and remains to be discovered. If that weren't hidden, more talented students would be drawn towards careers in the sciences.

Under my memory, I thought you were a creationist, but I must be wrong. Does that mean you accept evolution?

This is referring to those Christians who would like to (somehow) MAKE others become Christian. What do you suppose the proportion of such people are, out of the whole of Christianity? (I take it this is pure opinion)

I know it's not high. I would say about 1-5%. Even if they are 1%, they're a noisy 1%.

This doesn't really speak to "Christian values." Or if it does, can you explain how?

People in prison generally aren't there for following the rules.

I'm not saying the reason they are in jail is because they were Christian. I'm saying that if the country is dangerous because of a lack of Christian values, it makes no sense that Christians would be the ones getting in trouble. Surely, they'd be the good ones?

Oh, debate happens plenty! ^_^ You're just not allowed to mock Christianity, or God. Attempting to prove it "wrong" is sometimes enforced as the same thing, and is seen as GA, (general apologetics) which I guess you know was shut down long ago. Next door in CWR is one place to debate various religions, and that happens a good bit in the society section too.

Whenever I've started discussing evolution etc. the thread has been closed. I'd say about 70% of all my threads created have been closed by a mod, because they turn into a debate. I still think there should be a dedicated debate forum. It's not like people have to go in there and debate; it's just for those who want to.
 
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drich0150

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I mean that if all the lobbyists wanted was a single lesson to be devoted to teaching creationism, I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. What I believe they want is for many lessons, throughout the year, to be on Creationism.
Then why not make that concession before abolishing all religious theology in public schools all together? Like prayer got whittled down to a moment of silence at the beginning of each day. If they wanted to have anything to do with it they would have found a compromise somewhere.
 
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razeontherock

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Under my memory, I thought you were a creationist, but I must be wrong. Does that mean you accept evolution?

Species certainly adapt. We can do that pretty quickly under certain conditions, and science finally accepts that. In school, ToE is the only thing I accepted w/o critical thought. Sometime in my 30's I went through the 'noisy Christian' rhetoric about how you have to accept literalism, or chuck the Bible entirely. After a bit of that my Faith got messed up for a while, which often happens when you challenge preconceptions.

I'm not certain ToE has everything correct, and I rather favor the idea that every answer to life the Universe and everything that our species has, has some problems with it. Those answers I've examined in detail certainly do! Here I should note that Gen 1 is declaring G-d to be above the gods of the neighboring tribes. This is how the original audience heard it. Trying to turn that into something it's not, is problematic.

As far as what actually happened, I still think it's a fascinating pursuit. There are all sorts of possibilities, including our species developing naturally, with G-d adding His Spirit to one person; sort of "pushing things along," if you will. Currently the scientific community seems to be overlooking the great lessons of the ancient world, namely; how did they have such advanced knowledge and ability, so long ago? I mean local indigeneous people all over the world say of ancient structures "gee, we don't know how it got here. It was here when we first showed up." I'm pretty sure velociraptors didn't do it ^_^

Another interesting thing is that when language first showed up, it was by all accounts modern. And you are aware that the whole Mayan thing didn't predict any end of the world at all, but just the completion of a 26,000 year cycle, re: the plane of our solar system aligning with the plane of our galaxy?
I mean tell me - how did they know that? Our species has done some things that seem to violate the logical order of ToE.

I know it's not high. I would say about 1-5%. Even if they are 1%, they're a noisy 1%.

:thumbsup:^_^ Ok. I think part of that may be related to our media; something about good news doesn't sell?

I'm not saying the reason they are in jail is because they were Christian. I'm saying that if the country is dangerous because of a lack of Christian values, it makes no sense that Christians would be the ones getting in trouble. Surely, they'd be the good ones?

Hhmmm ... you seem to be suggesting that the prison population is disproportionately high in C's, vs the general population? I admit I don't know either way, but I don't think that's the case. Let me ask this: why would someone facing trial deny being a Christian? And what bearing does this have on the last say, 10 years of how they lived their life vs those ideals?

And if you wish to cry "no true Scotsman," I will point out that really doesn't apply to Christianity. Jesus said we can know them by their fruits, and it is our duty to discern good from evil. (This does not equate to condemnation, nor even determining if someone is a "true" C or not, just behavior)

Whenever I've started discussing evolution etc. the thread has been closed.

We have a sub-forum for exactly that. Society, physical and life sciences, Ev

It probably has specific rules / policies stated somewhere, but CF is good at making those hard to find. ;) If you have difficulty, it's possible to start a thread in user support or MSC asking for that detail. I really don't know their policy on debate, but it seems designed for it to me?
 
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GrayAngel

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Haven't been on in a long time, so thought it would be time to ask some more (unrelated) questions:

1. Do you want your country to become a Christian state; where all have to follow Jesus? You don't have to have a yes or no answer, but I'm interested to hear an answer; whatever it may be.

Any Christian who wouldn't want that should have their priorities straightened out. Yes, I would like to live in an officially Christian country, as opposed to one that has "In God we trust" printed on its money, but which hypocritically uses it in ways that God would never approve of.

However, I am aware that I will never live in an entirely Christian society until I've died and gone to Heaven.

2. Do you ever have any doubt that you may be wrong about Jesus and Christianity? Furthermore, do you think there's any chance that there is no god?

I am 99.9% sure that God is real, and that Jesus is God.

3. (Creationists only) What is your stance on teaching creationism in schools? Should it be only in religion class or also in science class?

I'm on the fence on the Creationist vs. Guided Evolution debate.

If you're going to teach evolution, you should teach the alternative. And it is not religion-specific to Christianity, either. Teaching evolution in the classrooms, however, tends to discourage religion, which is just as much unconstitutional as establishing a state religion.

I advocate common sense and consistency. If you're going to offer one view, you have to offer the other as a fair balance.
 
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AvgJoe

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Haven't been on in a long time, so thought it would be time to ask some more (unrelated) questions:

1. Do you want your country to become a Christian state; where all have to follow Jesus? You don't have to have a yes or no answer, but I'm interested to hear an answer; whatever it may be.

If you're saying everyone is forced to follow Jesus, then no, that would be anti-Christian.

mulimulix said:
2. Do you ever have any doubt that you may be wrong about Jesus and Christianity? Furthermore, do you think there's any chance that there is no god?

No and no.

mulimulix said:
3. (Creationists only) What is your stance on teaching creationism in schools? Should it be only in religion class or also in science class?

In science class.
 
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salida

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Haven't been on in a long time, so thought it would be time to ask some more (unrelated) questions:

1. Do you want your country to become a Christian state; where all have to follow Jesus? You don't have to have a yes or no answer, but I'm interested to hear an answer; whatever it may be.

2. Do you ever have any doubt that you may be wrong about Jesus and Christianity? Furthermore, do you think there's any chance that there is no god?

3. (Creationists only) What is your stance on teaching creationism in schools? Should it be only in religion class or also in science class?

Also, if you want to have a discussion with me about any topic to do with religion/atheism/Christianity/creationism etc. I'd love to discuss it with you as respectfully as possible, as I know from previous experiences that the mods can be pretty strict about debating outside of private messages.

1-no
2-no
3-should be taught-its a science.
 
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ChristianT

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Dictionary said:
science |ˈsīəns|
noun
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment
So semantically, science can't possible account for the origins of the universe. Since we cannot observe the universe being created or beginning originally, we cannot scientifically conclude on the origin. We can theorize and dream, but we cannot ever humanly know the answer. I [rightly] don't claim to know the answer, however I trust in the answer God has given me, as it is sufficient for me.

So if scientists are going to say Big bang is a part of science (which they do), and add it into science books as fact or theory, they should also add creation, since both are equally possible, as we were not and are not physiologically able to observe the beginning.

These are, of course, my opinions.
 
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mulimulix

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So semantically, science can't possible account for the origins of the universe. Since we cannot observe the universe being created or beginning originally, we cannot scientifically conclude on the origin. We can theorize and dream, but we cannot ever humanly know the answer. I [rightly] don't claim to know the answer, however I trust in the answer God has given me, as it is sufficient for me.

So if scientists are going to say Big bang is a part of science (which they do), and add it into science books as fact or theory, they should also add creation, since both are equally possible, as we were not and are not physiologically able to observe the beginning.

These are, of course, my opinions.

No, this is fundamentally wrong. "Observation" doesn't necessarily been "See". We can observe the microwave radiation from the edge of the universe, as well as other things. We also physically see the universe expanding, thanks to Hubble's observations about galaxies moving apart from each other. With the Big Bang, it is an assortment of many observations which draw a conclusion. The conclusion is that the universe started at a single point, where the Big Bang began. What happened to cause the Big Bang is unknown, but we know it did happen.
 
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hedrick

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Just like the Big Bang shouldn't be taught in religion class, ID shouldn't be taught in biology class.

Actually I teach about the big bang in Sunday School. (I've taught evolution in the past, but recently haven't decided to cover that whole issue.)
 
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mulimulix

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Actually I teach about the big bang in Sunday School. (I've taught evolution in the past, but recently haven't decided to cover that whole issue.)

That's your decision and one which I wouldn't oppose, but I do think is unusual. The main point I was making is that the subject of biology doesn't encompass ID just like you don't teach algebra in Chemistry.
 
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ChristianT

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No, this is fundamentally wrong. "Observation" doesn't necessarily been "See". We can observe the microwave radiation from the edge of the universe, as well as other things. We also physically see the universe expanding, thanks to Hubble's observations about galaxies moving apart from each other. With the Big Bang, it is an assortment of many observations which draw a conclusion. The conclusion is that the universe started at a single point, where the Big Bang began. What happened to cause the Big Bang is unknown, but we know it did happen.

Well, it sounds like we think it did happen. It looks like a strawberry... It spreads like strawberry jam... Therefore a hammer smashed the strawberry. (Analogy, but of course nothing can simulate the BB).
Formal fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not saying the BB is false, but according to what you have said, it sounds like the examples they give of the scientists and truth. ;)
 
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ChristianT

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The main point I was making is that the subject of biology doesn't encompass ID just like you don't teach algebra in Chemistry.

Just for your info, I'm taking chemistry and we use a good amount of algebra.
 
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