Authority and the Church

[rusmeister]

Thanks, Damaris. That helps.




Ok. That's different. Thanks for explaining.



Is this directed toward me or TF?

It's for everybody to answer, all TAW members. I do NOT want this turning into a thread where two or three people have long conversations. I want to know what the general body of TAW thinks, in brief.

No one would argue that our Tradition is not a living Tradition. But we obviously don't agree on what that means. I do not think it means a thing that changes in substance, that can be right for centuries, then suddenly wrong, or just plain wrong all along, as advocates of homosexuality claim, or that it is whatever a peron feels inside of themselves and imagines to be the Holy Spirit, the logical result of TF's claims. Tradition means "that which is handed down", "turned over", the Greek "paradosis". It is not something we invent or even define on our own.

The argument is about whether it is purely subjective and internal, something the individual decides for himself, as TF says, or whether it is identifiable as an external and objective thing that the individual has to submit his own thoughts and feelings to.

 

[truefiction1]

... or that it is whatever a peron feels inside of themselves and imagines to be the Holy Spirit, the logical result of TF's claims. Tradition means "that which is handed down", "turned over", the Greek "paradosis". It is not something we invent or even define on our own.

The argument is about whether it is purely subjective and internal, something the individual decides for himself, as TF says, or whether it is identifiable as an external and objective thing that the individual has to submit his own thoughts and feelings to.

This is really a gross misrepresentation of my position, which points to affective state as being what lives at the center of Tradition, while not being divorced from it. What some can not admit to is the reality of historically determined limitations in mankind's cognitive knowledge of the universe, which plays into how he has traditionally symbolized his affective/religious experience. This is the reality regarding man that I understand and accept, and is the reason behind my ability to both accept the theory of evolution and participate in the Living Tradition of the Orthodox Christian Church, while you must continue to insist that if one believes upon the theory of evolution, then one must ultimately repent of that belief and humbly submit to the authority of past consensus. It is not necessary to do so. One does not excommunicate themselves from the Church by failing to do so. It is not the opinion of the Church that we who have faith in Jesus Christ as the messiah, Son of God, and Savior of the world should excommunicate ourselves due to nature of our scientific reasonings and minds. Such a position would ultimately lead to the eventual eradication of the Church, and they know it (because they are wise). This is why our Church leaders do not marginalize us, as is pretty much always done in here by those who dominate this forum. I suggest that the marginalization of evolution accepting Christians be halted because it is not representative of the behavior of the Church. Please allow this be my parting recommendation.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well you either accept it, don't accept it, or you're agnostic. There's little else to be. You seem intentionally non-committal to it, GC. It's always easy to debate something when you have no position or have a wobbly one. Spell it out then....

"You seem to be agnostic, but very sympathetic to evolutionists, so being agnostic, you get your feathers ruffled by "pro-evolution."

Nope! Wrong again!

 

[Dorothea]

I accept the dogmas of the church on all it teaches. Where there isn't dogma and the Church such as life after departing this life and exactly what happened when God created the world - apart from the dogmatic teachings on that, I think that leaves a person to be agnostic on those because they haven't been revealed to us. Like all the details we don't know about what was exactly going on around or outside the Garden or where the dinosaurs were and all the details of that are left up in the air. It's the same for the ideas of what happens after physical death. The Toll Houses or not. One can lean toward one or another or can be agnostic about it all. What was revealed to us and what was written in the Bible were for our relationship with God and for our salvation. The rest doesn't seem to be needed to know or that important if it wasn't detailed and/or revealed completely by God. That's my belief, anyway.

 

[prodromos]

I do have the honesty and certainty of position in that I openly share my thoughts and feelings when I discern that such sharing is helpful to others and not harmful. The relationship that I have with my friends and co-workers, their names and addresses, however, should not be publicized in a public forum.

He didn't ask for friends and co-worker's details, just your jurisdiction and bishop. Maybe I am just thick, but I don't understand why you consider such information to be too sensitive for a public forum.

 

[truefiction1]

He didn't ask for friends and co-worker's details, just your jurisdiction and bishop. Maybe I am just thick, but I don't understand why you consider such information to be too sensitive for a public forum.

Because my friends and coworkers include members of my jurisdiction, and my bishop, and none of them should be approached by strange people on an internet forum wishing to cause trouble for any poster simply because they feel threatened or offended by that poster's positions, which are grossly misrepresented anyway out of the desire to prove the poster wrong. Maybe I'm just thick as well, but I feel that bishops are people too, and deserving of our consideration. If they wished to be dragged into these debates, they would join the forum.

 

[Macarius]

This thread would be hilarious if it weren't so sad. If it were a real discussion, I think it'd be worthwhile, but as it stands it looks like a thinly disguised attempt for Rus to self-rationalize his witch hunts.

No thanks.

 

[rusmeister]

Because my friends and coworkers include members of my jurisdiction, and my bishop, and none of them should be approached by strange people on an internet forum wishing to cause trouble for any poster simply because they feel threatened or offended by that poster's positions, which are grossly misrepresented anyway out of the desire to prove the poster wrong. Maybe I'm just thick as well, but I feel that bishops are people too, and deserving of our consideration. If they wished to be dragged into these debates, they would join the forum.

Your co-worker includes your bishop??

Are you in a canonical jurisdiction, or are you part of an Ortho-schismatic group? In how many jurisdictions do we have bishops who moonlight? Or are you saying you work right in an episcopal office? (That would, by your own admission, narrow you down to a small and identifiable group of people.)

No misrepresentation. I just repeat in plain English what you put into fuzzy English. I "dragged" my bishop into this discussion and even provided a link so that you know exactly who he is and who I, canonically speaking, ultimately have to answer to, should he require it. A refusal to identify your canonicity is tantamount to admitting that you are part of a schismatic group, the only believable reason for concealing it.

 

[rusmeister]

This thread would be hilarious if it weren't so sad. If it were a real discussion, I think it'd be worthwhile, but as it stands it looks like a thinly disguised attempt for Rus to self-rationalize his witch hunts.

No thanks.

I agree that it is sad, Mac.
But no disguises. Yes, we should identify what Tradition is and whether there is authority in the Church that can correct us if we err. And I think there is, and we have posters coming on and teaching and promoting doctrines that err, and so we need to identify that Tradition that we talk about all the time. I'm even OK with having it correct me. If Scripture, the Councils, and the fathers say with one voice that we should NOT define doctrine, then let everyone kick me in the butt and close the thread.

If there ARE such things as witches (within our Church, seeking to draw us away from true Faith), it is logical to hunt them. If there are spies, it is logical to try to catch them. If there are traitors in our midst in the middle of a war, it is logical to find and imprison them. Only, being Christians, and the miscreants being schismatics and/or heretics, we prefer to admonish them and pray for them - AND not let them teach among us or pretend to communion with them.

If there ARE no such things as schismatics or heretics; if it is NOT possible that they could ever come here and try to teach us, then my profuse apologies.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don't think rus is seeking to create a witch hunt. Nobody in TAW has such motivations I think I can safely say. There are people in here who don't like me and with whom I disagree sometimes, but I can't think of one who is in witch hunting mode.

I think this thread isn't trying to call anyone out so much as to get us to talk about how we perceive "what" exactly authority is to us in the Church and how much we are to be cautious to obey and be guided by it. Am I right?

And people aren't really answering the topic much, which is a little bit of concern to me. People are making it about Rus or something personal rather than answering the OP topic and expounding upon it?

Maybe we Orthodox Christians, myself most DEFINITELY included, need, from time to time, to revisit these kinds of topics to make sure we're not straying off into our own little islands.

I have observed scientism and the "new sexuality" that the LGBT mighty forces of propaganda have wrought upon us and how they are influencing Orthodox Christians in this very forum lately, and I must say that I find it alarming as well. Pansexuality seems to be rearing its head and I think the evolution thread had some moments where authority was brushed off or scoffed at to a point. Some are ok with that. Others aren't. Orthodoxy isn't Protestantism where we all go our merry way to our own beats. We must adhere to the deposit of faith as understood and maintained, guarded and nurtured, by the Church, not our own instincts, whims, the latest trends, etc.

So, why don't we just stick to the OP and not make this about Rus or about people or witch hunting, just the facts, as Sergeant Friday might say?

 

[Philothei]

Closed for review

 

[George95]

MOD HAT ON

This topic will remain closed.

MOD HAT OFF​