1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a friendly forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting after you have posted 20 posts and have received 5 likes.
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

  2. Please check out our two newest forums, the "Buy, Sell or Trade" (link ) forum in the Society Category, and the "Conspiracy Theories" (link) forum in our Discussion and Debate Category.

Authentic Netzarim (Nazarenes)

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Goose, May 13, 2004.

Did this post cause you curiosity in the (Authentic) Netzarim?

  1. Yes

  2. Some What

  3. No

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Goose

    Goose New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Judaism
    True authentic Netzarim (Nazarenes) follow the teachings of the pharasaic Ribi Yehoshua ben Yosef of the 1st Century, as cited by the late Oxford Historian James Parkes and in extant manuscripts of the ancient historian Eusebius. Authentic Netzarim talmidim(Nazarene students), recognized by the official Netzarim Beit Din (Nazarene Court) based in Israel, follow (Orthodox) Jewish halacha and are authorized by the Head Rabbi of Israel.

    All other "Netzarim/Nazarene" groups are imposters and indentity thieves and have no legitimate claim to the title of being a Netzarim, Netzarim Talmid, Netzarim "Jew", etc. These groups distance themselves from the very authority that Ribi Yehoshua taught one to be under; ergo (Orthodox) Judaism, as was continuous from Moshe (Moses) to this very day in his written and oral (mishpatim) Torah.

    If you are sincerely interested, please respond. Thank you.
     
  2. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

    Messages:
    7,660
    Likes Received:
    73
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Libertarian
    Faith:
    Judaism
    Which Netzarim group do you belong to? There are a few who claim that banner today.

    curious,
    Yafet
     
  3. Goose

    Goose New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Judaism
    The authentic, Israel based Netzarim, as blessed by the Head Rabbi of Israel
    our website: www(dot)netzarim(dot)co(dot)il
    (a complete url link couldn't be made, do to my "new user" status here at CF)

    Could you please cite what other "Netzarim" groups and also cite the evidence where they state they are blessed by the (Orthodox) Head Rabbi of Israel? Thank you.
     
  4. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

    Messages:
    7,660
    Likes Received:
    73
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Libertarian
    Faith:
    Judaism

    #1) There is no "Head Rabbi of Israel".

    #2) There is no direct connection/link to the first century Netzarim. The last the Netzarim were heard of in history was the 13th Century. Groups like yours and Trimm's are simply self-proclaimed revitalizations of the Netzarim. Anyone can call themself Netzarim as there is no Beit Din, nor was there a successional Beit Din from Ya'acov to any Netzarim self-proclaimed group today.

    #3) The group you are referring to is led by a gentile, while a rather intelligent man, who is a self-proclaimed convert (Yirmeyahu Ben-David aka: Clint Van Nest) who decieves people stating he is Jewish.

    #4) A few years ago, I myself was seeking after the truth behind the Netzarim expression. While I still feel the original Netzarim were of perfect faith, those who adhere to this movement today are questionable at best... ranging from Van Nest to Trimm. When I was on my quest to find the one true expression of the Netzarim, I came across http://www.netzarim.co.il/
    I was so excited, I (innocently) went directly to the head Rabbi at Jews for Judaism and asked if the claim on the website was true. Were they really the only messianic organization recognized halachically by the Orthodox Beit Din?
    This Rabbi was rather shocked and ended up making several phone calls to Israel to discuss this issue with varioius Beit Din members (including the Nassi at the time). It turns out that there is absolutely no validity to the websites claim. The Orthodox Beit Din in Israel was so upset by this claim that last I heard they were pursuing this matter in court to have the claim removed from the website.
    I have followed through with this a few times through the years and have only ended in headache. This group is dangerous at best, deceptive at heart, and absolutely nothing like the original Netzarim of Derech HaShem.


    a) There isn't a single Messianic Beit Din in operation today (including the Netzarim you refer to).
    b) No Messianic congregation or sect is recognized by any Orthodox Beit Din (including the Netzarim you refer to).

    Please take my words to heart. If you are serious about following a true Judaic expression, I highly reccomend seeking out a Jewish synagogue, study Torah, and not chase after every wind of doctrine.

    Shalom,
    Yafet
     
    Plan 9 likes this.
  5. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

    Messages:
    7,660
    Likes Received:
    73
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Libertarian
    Faith:
    Judaism
    If I am not mistaken, there are a few others on this very forum who have had run ins with the Netzarim. If there are any of you out there, let us hear your stories.

    However, if I am mistaken, and no one here has heard of them.... I shall ask my friend BrookLaw to either come and share her encounters (she visited them in Israel) or to allow me to post for her. Many of you know BrookLaw from various theology forums on the WWW.

    shalom,
    yafet
     
  6. Hix

    Hix Zionist Jew

    Messages:
    1,490
    Likes Received:
    84
    Politics:
    UK-Conservative
    Faith:
    Judaism
    I knew the minute I saw this thread it was someone from netzarim.co.il, there is however, no netzarim beit din, and netzarim.co.il is not recognised under the banner of Judaism by the official Orthodox Judaism one there either. Infact Conservative and Reform are not official sects of Judaism according to the Orthodox Beit Din, they are still Jews but are outside Judaism. In a way I would agree and in a way I would not.

    Actually Goose I was very excited when I first read that site only to find it was a hoax, it had seemed at first almost too good to be true. And it was. A Netzarim group who arent affiliated with James Trimm, who claim to be recognised by the official Beit Din, who and who follow Torah in its fullness. Infact had they not made the erroneous claim that they were accepted by Orthodox judaism, and had my good friend Yafet not known someone who went to their congregation and said it was identical to a church, I would have considered it.

    BTW Yafet, there is a Chief Rabbi for the Ashkenazi and there is a Chief Rabbi for the Sephardim. Im not sure if "head" and "chief" are used to mean the same thing here.

    Shalom and G-d bless
    ~Hix~
     
  7. Goose

    Goose New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Judaism

    The Chief Rav at the the time was Rav Mordecai Eliyahu who is well accepted by Askenazim and Sephardim. I'm holding in my hands a photocopy of the very letter of the blessing.
    That's untrue. Ancient historian Eusebius states quite clearly the succession and extermination of the Netzarim Beit Din and its 15 Paqidim, and dates it around 3rd Century.

    The letter from the Chief Rav of the time shows the blessing of Yermiyahu. And thereby we are shown to have, and continue to have, a good standing. Albeit highly contraversial, but only do to baseless assertions. Stating that the Rav didn't know what he was blessing, is accusing the Rav of ignorance and ineptitude and totally false. Going against the blessing of the Rav and attacking the authentic Netzarim is baseless and goes against Torah.


    That's a baseless lie. Yermiyahu ben-David underwent an orthodox conversion via an orthodox Rabbi and is a Jew in good standing. He made Aliyah to Israel in the 80's. He sits on the board of the Yemeni K'nesset, Moreshet Avot in Ra'anana, Israel. If you feel so inclined, you can go to the Netzarim website, where all his identification information is made available for a small fee, as well as the letter from the Chief Rabbi of the time.



    Kol haKavod for your checking, but to my knowledge your actions, or I should say of the beit din you speak of, were baseless and fruitless. Blessings from the Rav of the time are still referred to, regarded and diseminated from the Netzarim.



    We don't refer to ourselves as "Messianics", so I'm not sure on how to answer that. If by Messianic, you mean RAMBAM 13, then it's the (Orthodox) Netzarim Beit Din, based in Ra'anana, Israel.

    Again, another baseless assertion.


    Kol haKavod for your search, and you have an open ear from me. But your claims are baseless. If I were to take baseless assertions to heart, then I would be little different then haNotzrim.
     
  8. Goose

    Goose New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Judaism
    Simchat and Hix,

    Thank you all for your open ears, but I need proof, not baseless assertions. Todah.
     
  9. Talmidah

    Talmidah היום כולם יודעים - הרב כהנא צדק

    Messages:
    5,897
    Likes Received:
    137
    Marital Status:
    Private
    Faith:
    Judaism
    :confused:
     
  10. Toney

    Toney Watcher

    Messages:
    1,724
    Likes Received:
    63
    Faith:
    Humanist
    Your Honour Paqid Adon Goose,

    Several months ago I visited your online Village. I did not buy any souviniers because I did not appreciate its overall tone, which I found to be insistent and angry: indicators of backwater truth.

    You are new to MJ. We have our own Paqid and informal Beit Din, presided over by Yafet, the Joy of Torah and Hix, the Irish Flame. Listen to them.

    I hope you come here often. We are desperately in need of more Jews. I assume you are Jewish by your faith icon.

    Shalom
     
  11. sojeru

    sojeru just a Jew

    Messages:
    890
    Likes Received:
    15
    Faith:
    Judaism
    Greetings Adon "Goose",

    Are you are student or a Paqid or a Hacham?

    My Rabbi spoke with His Eminence Hacham Yermiyahu- though we give him his proper respect (whether he is self-proclaimed or not) we find what he teaches is not agreed with amoungst us.

    We are Nazareans aswell.
    Though recognized by Orthodox Judaism of all branches we are being observed with a very ugly eye.
    The same eye that is given to the Chabad Lubavitch Beit Noach movement.
    We are quite known to those in Judaism
    our Paqid is known by Hillel ben David
    our Hacham is Dr.Yosef ben Haggai
    a student of His Eminece Hacham Ovadiyah Yosef- the leader of the Shas in Eretz Yisrael.

    shalom u'brachot
     
  12. muffler dragon

    muffler dragon Ineffable

    Messages:
    9,908
    Likes Received:
    247
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Judaism
    :blush: I'm the only one that this post caused curiosity in. But then again, it was more a matter of ignorant curiousity, due to the fact that I have no idea what the term even means.
     
  13. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

    Messages:
    7,660
    Likes Received:
    73
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Libertarian
    Faith:
    Judaism


    Allow me to clarify... maybe you missed the point?

    There is nothing to prove that your particular Netzarim group is the "authentic" expression of the 1st century. There is no direct connection. While you may have the blessing of some Rabbinical councils today, there is no link to establish you as one and only true Netzarim group.

    Who's to say that if I started a congregation today, labelled it "netzarim", created a Beit Din, etc... that I wouldn't be the one true authentic expression of Netzarim? This is haughty at best, and downright deceptive at worst.

    You see, the last known record of the Netzarim we have in history is in the 13th century. Since then, the Netzarim were extinguished (unfortunately). There are several groups today who have begun a self-proclaimed revitalization of this Nazarene movement, but none of them have a direct connection to the group which existed previously. Who is to say group A or group B is the 'one true authentic'? Anyone can ressurect a Beit Din today and label it Netzarim. Having good standing with any particular group today does not instantly create your group as the only true Netzarim expression.

    Had there been a direct connection between your group and the Netzarim of the past, this would be a different story.


    No Messianic congregation, let alone a Beit Din, is accepted as 'legitimate' by the Orthodox. There are discussions currently being held concerning how to deal with the legitimacy of Messianic Believers, but no movement, congregation, or sect is officially recognized by the Orthodox... period.

    This is sad and unfortunate, and I'm rather sickened that a group such as the Netzarim would make up such false statements to deceive.

    Oh, and by the way, a 'blessing' is different then being 'officially recognized' by the Beit Din. As Hix pointed out, even the Reform are not officially recognized by the Orthodox.

    haha... one other thing, before I forget... A convert can not be on a Biet Din, let alone HaNissi! Halachically it is forbidden. In order to serve on the Beit Din, one must be of full Jewish ancestory, dating back 7 generations following the mother's bloodline.


    If you doubt me, head over to Jews for Judaism and see if they will look into it for you ;)

    I'm sure they'd be more than happy to find out the truth behind the Netzarim's claims. Are they honest to goodness recognized by the Orthodox Beit Din as a legitimate expression of Judaism???

    good luck. :)

    It is impossible for him to be in 'good standing' and remain a messianic. Under current halacha all Messianics are not allowed to convert, make Aliyah, or be recognized as Jewish (especially a goy convert). And as I pointed out above, Yirmeyahu Ben-David can not possibly serve on the Biet Din as he is a proslyte.

    You know quite well what I meant by Messianic (you are, after all, posting in a Messinaic Judaism forum).

    I too despise what the term 'messianic' has come to represent. I prefer the title Jewish Believer, but that is neither here nor there. The essence of Messianic is one who adheres to Judaism and belief that Y'shua is HaMoshiach. This is the basis of the Netzarim, thus you are Messianic (and the Netzarim are messianic).

    As I previously stated, according to current halacha, no group that is Messianic is officially recognized by the Orthodox Beit Din. Sad as it may be, this is quite true. The good news is that this will soon see revision in the Orthodox Beit Din and is being discussed today. The bad news is that your Netzarim group is lying.

    plain and simple, it is a lie.


    IF you can prove otherwise, you are welcome to do so.


    In all honesty, the proof of burden lies upon your shoulders. You (and the Netzarim) have made some pretty bold claims that are completely unfounded. You have a long road ahead of you to prove to us that the Netzarim are accepted as a legitimate Jewish expression by the (any) Orthodox Beit Din.

    Is there a negative connotation to being one of the Notzrim (watchmen)? I, as well as Hix and others, have chosen to partake fully in Judaism without feeling the need to create something seperate (Netarim, MJAA, etc). If you feel you want to be a part of something legitimate, this is the only route. But if you want prefer to be a part of something without a basis, then by all means, join the Netzarim. Just don't try to deceive others in the process... claiming it is recognized and legitimate.

    Shalom,
    yafet
     
  14. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

    Messages:
    7,660
    Likes Received:
    73
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Libertarian
    Faith:
    Judaism
    Shalom Muffler,


    There are quite a few discussions in the MJ section concerning the term Netzarim. Essentially, the early believers were a recognized sect within Judaism that were called such, and today there are a number of groups that have tried to revitalize this term and claim they are they one true Netzarim expression.

    seek all things out.

    shalom,
    yafet
     
  15. sojeru

    sojeru just a Jew

    Messages:
    890
    Likes Received:
    15
    Faith:
    Judaism
    Greetings Yafet,

    Quote:
    No Messianic congregation, let alone a Beit Din, is accepted as 'legitimate' by the Orthodox. There are discussions currently being held concerning how to deal with the legitimacy of Messianic Believers, but no movement, congregation, or sect is officially recognized by the Orthodox... period.

    This is sad and unfortunate, and I'm rather sickened that a group such as the Netzarim would make up such false statements to deceive.


    I dont see it sad at all.
    Judaism is waiting to see something come out of it.
    And until a certain fruit is shown they wont believe in this "ben Yosef" movement.
    The "beit Noach" movement is being scrutinized aswell--- though recognized by Orthodoxy they do not see it as a legitimate practice.

    Though all of Hacham Shaul's teachign are correct- I believe he failed in his mission
    though he never wanted to create a new religion- by conquering too fast, there was an anarchy and this anarchy is the Christianity we fin today.
    There was an outnumbering of Gentiles to the Teachers and Jews that were of this pharisaic Nazarean movement.
    Personally I say 12 students to each teacher
    imagine how many gentiles it took for them to overwhelm the rabbis?

    even in the book pf phillipians or titus- there were gentiles who barred Hacham Shaul to even enter the congregation...
    pure shame
    but that is what happened...
    So Judaism recognizes the movement- may even give a blessing as you say- and you are completely correct
    but recieved as legitimate?
    though it has existed in pockets throughout history- no we were never legitimate because we have yet to make an impact on the gentile world to succesfully make Jews out of gentiles in large numbers.
    If that did happen from the get go- then we wouldnt be in the situation that we are in today.

    shalom u'brachot
     
  16. Goose

    Goose New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Judaism
    It takes time and money to ship. Do you think we'd do that for free, especially when most of the people who what that information, want it only for baseless hatred?
     
  17. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

    Messages:
    7,660
    Likes Received:
    73
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Libertarian
    Faith:
    Judaism

    Nobody here has expressed hatred.

    Some people seek persecution. Those who are truly persecuted do so with a smile.
     
  18. Goose

    Goose New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Judaism
    I'm not a Paqid and we don't offer souveniers. The reason you were offended by its tone, was because it spoke from authority against your rebelliousness.

    No I'm not. To me, you're all self-proclaimed "Netzarim" Notzrim. I asked for cititation where I could obtain your legitimacy, but I have yet to receive it.

    I'm an (Orthodox)Geir and Judaism is my faith and action. A geir does have the faith of the Jews.
     
  19. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

    Messages:
    7,660
    Likes Received:
    73
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Libertarian
    Faith:
    Judaism

    lol... yeah, that tone.


    hmmm... did someone here say they were Netzarim???

    Was I taking a bathroom break when that comment was made?


    WAIT A MINUTE HERE... you're the one making the claim of legitimacy! No one here has stated anything remotely close to this!

    We don't have anything to prove... you do.

    We're waiting.
     
  20. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

    Messages:
    7,660
    Likes Received:
    73
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Libertarian
    Faith:
    Judaism

    Did you convert through the Orthodox Beit Din, or the Netzarim?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...