Atheists: Why don't you steal, rape, pillage, etc?

Atheists Only: If you 100% could get away with stealing a million dollars, would you steal it?


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derGroßmütige

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My point is Evolution. Animals kill other animals for territory, rape their females. The strong crush the weak, which helps the species improve.

The weird thing about Atheists is they always use religious arguments ("don't hurt the weak", "I'm a good person", etc.) instead of logical arguments like evolution, euthanizing the weak/burdens on society, etc.

Another thing is they say they are "good" people often, and isn't good a construct of religion? If you are Atheist then there is no "good" or "evil". i.e. Atheists saying Hitler is an "evil monster" make no sense. Or do you atheists not believe in Evolution? Are you against euthanizing the elderly or handicapped?

What logical arguments can you have for not stealing a car if you know you can get away with it? Or robbing a bank? Or kidnapping the women you want who rejects you?
 

Archaeopteryx

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My point is Evolution. Animals kill other animals for territory, rape their females. The strong crush the weak, which helps the species improve.

The weird thing about Atheists is they always use religious arguments ("don't hurt the weak", "I'm a good person", etc.) instead of logical arguments like evolution, euthanizing the weak/burdens on society, etc.

Another thing is they say they are "good" people often, and isn't good a construct of religion? If you are Atheist then there is no "good" or "evil". i.e. Atheists saying Hitler is an "evil monster" make no sense. Or do you atheists not believe in Evolution? Are you against euthanizing the elderly or handicapped?

What logical arguments can you have for not stealing a car if you know you can get away with it? Or robbing a bank? Or kidnapping the women you want who rejects you?
Are you suggesting that, if you didn't believe in God, you would do those things?
 
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Conscious Z

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There are several problems with your argument. First, you are making the classic mistake of trying to derive an "ought" from an "is." Simply because nature exhibits certain behaviors, and evolution values certain behaviors, does not mean we "ought" to do those behaviors. That is an unwarranted leap. Second, you are factually incorrect about evolution. Evolution values cooperation, particularly within the group. The mechanism is obvious: organisms who killed each other didn't survive to pass on their genes. Organisms who cooperated with each other were more likely to survive. Evolution produced in us moral faculties that are not found in other species. These came about due to increased survival rates of people who were capable or this sort of (moral) behavior.

To answer your question, quite simply, I don't want to do those things. I don't enjoy stealing, raping and pillaging. My brain isn't wired to like those activities, therefore I have no reason to participate in them. That is true for the vast majority of humans, and we have evolution to thank for it.
 
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derGroßmütige

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Are you suggesting that, if you didn't believe in God, you would do those things?

If I was 100% sure He didn't exist. Yes. Of course. Why not?


Same reasons you do, I suppose.

No, I only don't do it because I have faith. Why resist taking what you want, if not for religion?
 
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HitchSlap

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If I was 100% sure He didn't exist. Yes. Of course. Why not?




No, I only don't do it because I have faith. Why resist taking what you want, if not for religion?
Being a good person has it's own rewards.
 
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derGroßmütige

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To answer your question, quite simply, I don't want to do those things. I don't enjoy stealing, raping and pillaging. My brain isn't wired to like those activities, therefore I have no reason to participate in them. That is true for the vast majority of humans, and we have evolution to thank for it.

So you're saying IF your brain IS wired to like those activities, that you should do so?

And really, what a bunch of crock. You don't enjoy sex? Or millions of dollars? You've never wanted a person you can't have? Never had an opportunity to push that guy you hate in front of a train when no one is looking and no camera is there to record it? (he'd be dead right now if I wasn't religious).

Even if evolution created that moral "conscience" (which I absolutely 100% disagree with because in many cultures things like cannibalism are "normal"), why obey it? It goes against your self-interest. Why not spam people to make money, rob a bank, or steal a car, if you can get away with it?
 
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derGroßmütige

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Being a good person has it's own rewards.

Like going to Heaven? Why are you making a cultish religious statement with no proof behind it. Thought you were Atheist. Most humans enjoy pleasure and letting go of inhibitions, it's why they drink so much (I don't drink BTW). You say rewards in the abstract as if I should chase your invisible "rewards".
 
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Conscious Z

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So you're saying IF your brain IS wired to like those activities, that you should do so?


I didn't say anything of the sort. I may have implied that, if my brain were wired that way, I would want to. But I never implied that the way my brain is wired gives me a "should." You are again trying to derive an "ought" from an "is."

And really, what a bunch of crock. You don't enjoy sex? Or millions of dollars? You've never wanted a person you can't have? Never had an opportunity to push that guy you hate in front of a train when no one is looking and no camera is there to record it? (he'd be dead right now if I wasn't religious).

I do enjoy sex, I do enjoy money and I might enjoy revenge depending on the consequences. I do not, however, enjoy rape, theft and murder. Humans have consciences, and they are powerful things. Evolution has created a strong desire in me to not do those things.

Even if evolution created that moral "conscience" (which I absolutely 100% disagree with because in many cultures things like cannibalism are "normal"), why obey it? It goes against your self-interest. Why not spam people to make money, rob a bank, or steal a car, if you can get away with it?

I obey my conscience because it makes me happy. My number one self interest is happiness. Having a million bucks but being miserable because I feel guilty is not in my self interest.

Also, there are probably zero cultures where cannibalism is normal.
 
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derGroßmütige

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I obey my conscience because it makes me happy. My number one self interest is happiness. Having a million bucks but being miserable because I feel guilty is not in my self interest.

ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY CONSCIENCE! WE WORSHIP THEE AND RESIST PLEASURE IN THY NAME!

AMEN!


Also, there are probably zero cultures where cannibalism is normal.

Ignorance, thy name is Conscious Z! I'll try to be polite.

The Korowai in New Guinea supposedly still practice cannablism today. Aztecs were notorious for it (disliked by other tribes which didn't practice it) and I also learned that the Karankawa tribe actively practiced it.
 
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MissVeronica

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There are several problems with your argument. First, you are making the classic mistake of trying to derive an "ought" from an "is." Simply because nature exhibits certain behaviors, and evolution values certain behaviors, does not mean we "ought" to do those behaviors. That is an unwarranted leap. Second, you are factually incorrect about evolution. Evolution values cooperation, particularly within the group. The mechanism is obvious: organisms who killed each other didn't survive to pass on their genes. Organisms who cooperated with each other were more likely to survive. Evolution produced in us moral faculties that are not found in other species. These came about due to increased survival rates of people who were capable or this sort of (moral) behavior.

To answer your question, quite simply, I don't want to do those things. I don't enjoy stealing, raping and pillaging. My brain isn't wired to like those activities, therefore I have no reason to participate in them. That is true for the vast majority of humans, and we have evolution to thank for it.


I come on this site just read what others views are it makes me so sad. Especially as I was once in the position of distrust. Until I started looking at the bible differently. Why are so many atheist out to prove that God doesn't exist instead of wanderi if he does what would happen when they die. It has to be ignorance why so many don't believe or understand. Remember always, while you are alive you have a chance to be open minded. When you are dead, the same freinds who were once atheist will still have a chance to change. It would be too late for you. Don't follow others but try to find out by removing all ignorance or what you think you believing. I'm not coming from an expert point of view but from a point of sadness. If we came here by evolution, then we could ask how is there are so many different races, why has the world populated. Come on it must take something almighty to cause the world to appear and everything in it. It's virtually impossible for is to just appear. Can scientist make a flower with your bare hand. Everyday God gives us 24 hours to change our lives? That is all we get. What if you are wrong, what about your family? If you are right about evolution then fine but what I you are not?
 
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Conscious Z

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You listed one culture that practices cannibalism (present tense, which is what your original claim was). That is supposed to be evidence that evolution didn't produce morality? You can't be serious. I also don't appreciate being called ignorant.

You have also mischaracterized my claim regarding the conscience. I am not saying we resist pleasure due to our conscience. I am saying that violating our conscience in a significant way isn't pleasurable.
 
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HitchSlap

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Like going to Heaven?
No. Nothing like that.

Why are you making a cultish religious statement with no proof behind it.[
Come again?


Thought you were Atheist.
I am!

Most humans enjoy pleasure and letting go of inhibitions,
If you say so.

Got any data on that?

it's why they drink so much (I don't drink BTW).

It's probably best you don't drink.

You say rewards in the abstract as if I should chase your invisible "rewards".

Tell you what, I won't sleep with your wife, if you won't sleep with mine. Sorry is this is too abstract for you.
 
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derGroßmütige

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You listed one culture that practices cannibalism (present tense, which is what your original claim was). That is supposed to be evidence that evolution didn't produce morality? You can't be serious. I also don't appreciate being called ignorant.

You have also mischaracterized my claim regarding the conscience. I am not saying we resist pleasure due to our conscience. I am saying that violating our conscience in a significant way isn't pleasurable.

I love how Atheists hone in one tiny thing to criticize instead of dealing with the philosophical argument itself. Let's just replace cannibalism with theft, murder, rape, or whatever thing you want.

To claim culture is evolution is beyond stupid. So the Viking pagans who raped, looted, and took whatever they wanted from non-Vikings are somehow evolutionarily inferior to Christians then? In that case, why haven't you embraced Christianity?

You're hurting evolution by rejecting the evolutionarily superior culture -_-
 
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HitchSlap

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I come on this site just read what others views are it makes me so sad. Especially as I was once in the position of distrust. Until I started looking at the bible differently. Why are so many atheist out to prove that God doesn't exist instead of wanderi if he does what would happen when they die. It has to be ignorance why so many don't believe or understand. Remember always, while you are alive you have a chance to be open minded. When you are dead, the same freinds who were once atheist will still have a chance to change. It would be too late for you. Don't follow others but try to find out by removing all ignorance or what you think you believing. I'm not coming from an expert point of view but from a point of sadness. If we came here by evolution, then we could ask how is there are so many different races, why has the world populated. Come on it must take something almighty to cause the world to appear and everything in it. It's virtually impossible for is to just appear. Can scientist make a flower with your bare hand. Everyday God gives us 24 hours to change our lives? That is all we get. What if you are wrong, what about your family? If you are right about evolution then fine but what I you are not?
And it's not too late to quit your belief in god/s. I wish you the best.
 
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derGroßmütige

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Tell you what, I won't sleep with your wife, if you won't sleep with mine. Sorry is this is too abstract for you.

OH! I get it, you're the weak in Evolution. See I was talking from the "strong" perspective, as in... I kill you, take your wife, and now I have two wives. See?
 
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HitchSlap

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I love how Atheists hone in one tiny thing to criticize instead of dealing with the philosophical argument itself. Let's just replace cannibalism with theft, murder, rape, or whatever thing you want.

To claim culture is evolution is beyond stupid. So the Viking pagans who raped, looted, and took whatever they wanted from non-Vikings are somehow evolutionarily inferior to Christians then? In that case, why haven't you embraced Christianity?

You're hurting evolution by rejecting the evolutionarily superior culture -_-
Why do you think religion was invented? Why do you think society and social contracts came about. Are you familiar with the Code of Hammurabi?
 
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HitchSlap

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OH! I get it, you're the weak in Evolution. See I was talking from the "strong" perspective, as in... I kill you, take your wife, and now I have two wives. See?
Why would you do that?

You seem to be chasing windmills, Don Quixote.
 
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Conscious Z

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I love how Atheists hone in one tiny thing to criticize instead of dealing with the philosophical argument itself. Let's just replace cannibalism with theft, murder, rape, or whatever thing you want.

To claim culture is evolution is beyond stupid. So the Viking pagans who raped, looted, and took whatever they wanted from non-Vikings are somehow evolutionarily inferior to Christians then? In that case, why haven't you embraced Christianity?

You're hurting evolution by rejecting the evolutionarily superior culture -_-

You aren't making a philosophical argument, though -- that's the problem. You are making a biological argument that isn't actually based on science. It is a neurological fact that humans have portions of their brain that are active during moral deliberations that other mammals do not have. How did those get there? Evolution. I've already explained the mechanism to you, and it isn't difficult to imagine how nice people cooperating could survive better than angry people killing each other.

The truth is that theft, murder and rape are not the norm among humans. The vast majority of people do not practice these things, and those activities that are likely to threaten life are the most unlikely (such as killing). Why is it that humans are less likely to kill than they are to steal? Because killing is something the evolutionary process really weeded out, whereas stealing is less connected to survival.
 
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derGroßmütige

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Why do you think religion was invented? Why do you think society and social contracts came about. Are you familiar with the Code of Hammurabi?

So your argument is that religions are a construct of government to create stablity and the governments have fooled the strong into not taking what they want?

In that case, we should all reject such foolish anti-evolutionary concepts and embrace a government of the strong crushing the weak, now that we have LIMITED resources on Earth and cannot afford the burdens on society.
 
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