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cloudyday2

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At least if the drugs are helping to mitigate the impact of the mental problems, that is a good thing. But, it doesn't work for everyone and it is not a cure by itself. The real cure is knowledge. That is why counselling can be effective, and why people such as yourself are able to learn a more accurate view of reality. Remember being scared of shadows as a kid? Remember what stopped it? Knowledge that reality was not what you imagined it to be. This is all said art delusions, not hallucinations or anything else. I don't know about hallucinations, but I think a lot about why people are all so delusional.

Delusions are interesting. Atheists often say that Christians are delusional, but that's not quite the same as when a psychiatrist says a person is delusional. Maybe one trait of a delusional belief is that if it was true then it would be very, very important. When I had delusions, I knew they were bizarre and unlikely, but I couldn't dismiss them because they were also very consequential. If Satan was God and God was Satan, then that mattered a lot to me. I wasn't certain either way, but it was a theory that I couldn't ignore. If a sock went missing in my laundry, then I wondered if somebody had magically removed the sock to tease me. That's what it's like to be delusional. That's different than being a Christian.

The problem with Christianity is that it encourages delusional people by providing a cosmology of supernatural possibilities. Atheism helps keep people grounded in skepticism, science, critical thinking, etc.
 
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cloudyday2

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Another characteristic of delusions is that they make the delusional person the center of the universe. Like if the CIA is trying to assassinate me, then I must be very important in some way that I didn't realize. I have read that people who have low self esteem are more likely to become delusional, because it makes one feel more important.
 
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oi_antz

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The problem with Christianity is that it encourages delusional people by providing a cosmology of supernatural possibilities. Atheism helps keep people grounded in skepticism, science, critical thinking, etc.
I think that is not what Christianity does, but what people do with religion. I will PM you an example, to respect those I am describing. These people are not Christian, but they are doing the same thing. Christianity should encourage scepticism but not closed-mindedness, leading to a fuller knowledge of the truth: test everything and keep what is good.

What you are observing is caused by poor quality education in Christianity, because there is no official governing body that forces preachers to a standard curriculum. Can you imagine an education system that operates this way? Would you really expect to not end up with people who believed something that is not standard and doesn't add up, and that is even harmful? You know, there is so much truth in the parable of the wicked farmers, I find that I am referring to it almost every day! Check out this verse to see why we have this situation (the absolute authority is not physically present to enforce the standard curriculum): https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+21:38&version=NIV
 
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MishSill

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Addressing OP about this:

I think he has more of a mission than just that. I was discussing Satan's motives this morning, and it appears that the overall story of the bible is about his desire to control the world. Those humans who use their physical representation (life) against him are chastised while those who comply with and support his will receive his blessing. This is that normal method of control that we are all familiar with: reward and punishment.

I think the phrase "all over for the devil" is an exaggeration, but certainly he knows that once you begin representing the truth against him, you will be a nuisance. So it is easier instead to bring down your faith. I also don't think your battle against him stops when you decide to give loyalty to Jesus, but only at the grave. He does this in all manner of different ways too. I am certain that the psychosis you have described could be explained this way. I seriously expect that Satan who has been observing and operating on humans for thousands of years will understand what's going on in your head better than you do.

Hi oi_antz,

Before I became a Christian I was a psychic and very much dabbled into the occult. It really was all over for the devil when I gave my heart to Christ. In that whole experience I learnt about the authority of Jesus Christ.

That's not to say that I've not been tried and tested by other human beings and my own growth in my walk with Christ. But I can honestly say that I've lived two very different lives and in crossing over to be with Christ, I have His peace, His protection and His providence.

Blessings
Mish

I was referring to that crucial stage when a person is being attacked
 
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MishSill

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As an atheist, it's hard for me to be very interested in the devil's alleged strategies. One of the problems with Christianity (and other religions) is that people with mental illness often do not get the treatment they need, because their illness is often misdiagnosed and treated through prayer, deliverance ministries, etc. Even common mental illnesses like depression are sometimes not treated, because Christians tend to believe the devil is responsible for every misfortune.

On the other hand, some people with psychosis are comforted by their Christian beliefs. Trusting that "it is all over for the devil" reduces their fear, and this calm reduces psychosis. The ancient Egyptians had sleep temples where mental illnesses were treated using religious practices ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_temple ). Sometimes religion helps people too.

I have worked with a number of people over the years.

I have seen a correlation between the occult and mental illness and emotional issues.

I do not dissuade anyone from treament with psychologists or psychiatrists and indeed urge that person to continue medications until the doctor themselves tell them they can come off. Some medications require the gradual weaning and therefore it would be quite dangerous to say to anyone that they could throw away their medications.

When it comes to the emotional, firstly you help the person to grieve and bring out the hurtful things that happened to them (and I had seen some pretty serious abuse shared with me), second you help the person to start taking responsibility for their own current actions and thirdly, you help lead the person into a state of forgiveness for those who had wronged them.

When it comes to the spiritual and occult ties. I let the person open up to me about their past, their family and often it comes out that occult practice was engaged in. From this point, if the person is a believer in Christ, then I move on to take them through deliverence. Of course then we have to get to the definition of the word occult. There are many spiritual practices in the world that people simply would not consider to be dabbling into the occult.

oi_antz pointed out things that ministers in the Christian church were even doing. I've seen pentecostal churches going into a chant in the middle of a worship service and I knew immediately they had taken themselves to the wrong side and I took authority over it. We truly worship God from our hearts not through open chanting.

I think you will find that an individual can make up their own minds as to what treatment etc to get. I always ask the person if they have seen their doctor or a psychologist or qualified counsellor and encourage them to continue.

I also think you will that find that what I've described here is fairly standard way of helping those in need who God leads to us.
 
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cloudyday2

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I have worked with a number of people over the years.

I have seen a correlation between the occult and mental illness and emotional issues.

I do not dissuade anyone from treament with psychologists or psychiatrists and indeed urge that person to continue medications until the doctor themselves tell them they can come off. Some medications require the gradual weaning and therefore it would be quite dangerous to say to anyone that they could throw away their medications.

When it comes to the emotional, firstly you help the person to grieve and bring out the hurtful things that happened to them (and I had seen some pretty serious abuse shared with me), second you help the person to start taking responsibility for their own current actions and thirdly, you help lead the person into a state of forgiveness for those who had wronged them.

When it comes to the spiritual and occult ties. I let the person open up to me about their past, their family and often it comes out that occult practice was engaged in. From this point, if the person is a believer in Christ, then I move on to take them through deliverence. Of course then we have to get to the definition of the word occult. There are many spiritual practices in the world that people simply would not consider to be dabbling into the occult.

oi_antz pointed out things that ministers in the Christian church were even doing. I've seen pentecostal churches going into a chant in the middle of a worship service and I knew immediately they had taken themselves to the wrong side and I took authority over it. We truly worship God from our hearts not through open chanting.

I think you will find that an individual can make up their own minds as to what treatment etc to get. I always ask the person if they have seen their doctor or a psychologist or qualified counsellor and encourage them to continue.

I also think you will that find that what I've described here is fairly standard way of helping those in need who God leads to us.

It is good that you encourage psychiatric treatment for people who seek your help.

You said, "I have seen a correlation between the occult and mental illness and emotional issues." I was talking to a psychic on another forum and he said that psychics often joke that there is not much different between being psychic and having psychosis. I was never interested in occult, but sometimes I thought I experienced psychic phenomena (not that I ever pursued psychic phenomena, but they would happen unexpectedly and make me wonder). Now I suspect it was just my imaginative personality.
 
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MishSill

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It is good that you encourage psychiatric treatment for people who seek your help.

You said, "I have seen a correlation between the occult and mental illness and emotional issues." I was talking to a psychic on another forum and he said that psychics often joke that there is not much different between being psychic and having psychosis. I was never interested in occult, but sometimes I thought I experienced psychic phenomena (not that I ever pursued psychic phenomena, but they would happen unexpectedly and make me wonder). Now I suspect it was just my imaginative personality.

If spiritual things are happening, there is nothing imaginative about it.
 
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oi_antz

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Hi oi_antz,

Before I became a Christian I was a psychic and very much dabbled into the occult. It really was all over for the devil when I gave my heart to Christ. In that whole experience I learnt about the authority of Jesus Christ.

That's not to say that I've not been tried and tested by other human beings and my own growth in my walk with Christ. But I can honestly say that I've lived two very different lives and in crossing over to be with Christ, I have His peace, His protection and His providence.

Blessings
Mish

I was referring to that crucial stage when a person is being attacked
It is OK. I know that you mean that nobody can snatch you from His hand. But I meant that Satan has bigger goals than costing your salvation. I reckon actually that he doesn't care about that as much as you have made it seem. It was for OP's benefit anyway, I am sure he can see what we each are saying, and if he needs more clarity he can seek it. Thank you for your contributions, that is an interesting and useful background to have!
 
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MishSill

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It is OK. I know that you mean that nobody can snatch you from His hand. But I meant that Satan has bigger goals than costing your salvation. I reckon actually that he doesn't care about that as much as you have made it seem. It was for OP's benefit anyway, I am sure he can see what we each are saying, and if he needs more clarity he can seek it. Thank you for your contributions, that is an interesting and useful background to have!

Satan knows his destiny and his time is short. The only way he can get to God is to take souls to hell with him.

I recalled you posting earlier back that satan wants to control the world. That's true his pride is what threw him out of heaven. He will have his short time of power upon the earth and I feel that's not too far away.
 
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oi_antz

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Satan knows his destiny and his time is short. The only way he can get to God is to take souls to hell with him.

I recalled you posting earlier back that satan wants to control the world. That's true his pride is what threw him out of heaven. He will have his short time of power upon the earth and I feel that's not too far away.
I rather think he must be clutching some hope in being able to prove God to be wrong. This is unfortunately the wrong forum to debate, but I will hand it to you. Please go ahead and address Cloudy day about the problems in my statements, and we should leave it to him to cross-examine, as that is the intended procedure in this part of the website. Rules are designed to keep these discussions from becoming a distraction, since this is meant to be for non-Christians to learn about Christianity. Not to watch Christians figure things out! There is a place under Christian Theology for Christians to discuss and debate their beliefs. Nice to see you here by the way, thanks for that!
 
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cloudyday2

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If spiritual things are happening, there is nothing imaginative about it.

True, and thanks for sharing your thoughts. :) The occult and deliverance ministry background brings a different perspective.
 
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MishSill

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True, and thanks for sharing your thoughts. :) The occult and deliverance ministry background brings a different perspective.

Yes it does.

You will find that the study of psychology and Christian ministry often clash in terms of psychology not actually recognising existence of the supernatural.

Majority of the people I was helping did get some relief from psychology but it only got them so far. Because the supernatural was at work it too needed to be addressed.

I'm not in any way implying that all cases of mental illness involve the supernatural.

The general background of things I noticed was past sexual abuse and/or a family history of occult practices.

A lot of times when a person hallucinates, not many people pay much attention to what the person experienced. It generally just gets written off. The content of the hallucination is important because it may be a strong indicator of some kind of demonic attack. For example something may be revealed that actually has a biblical basis to it without the person experiencing the hallucination being aware of it. It is often times the Christian who picks up on it. A secular psychologist certainly wouldn't.

I'm happy to expand on this for you but thought this is a good starting point to help you understand that hallucinations may not necessarily be just hallucinations in terms of secular views.
 
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cloudyday2

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Yes it does.

You will find that the study of psychology and Christian ministry often clash in terms of psychology not actually recognising existence of the supernatural.

Majority of the people I was helping did get some relief from psychology but it only got them so far. Because the supernatural was at work it too needed to be addressed.

I'm not in any way implying that all cases of mental illness involve the supernatural.

The general background of things I noticed was past sexual abuse and/or a family history of occult practices.

A lot of times when a person hallucinates, not many people pay much attention to what the person experienced. It generally just gets written off. The content of the hallucination is important because it may be a strong indicator of some kind of demonic attack. For example something may be revealed that actually has a biblical basis to it without the person experiencing the hallucination being aware of it. It is often times the Christian who picks up on it. A secular psychologist certainly wouldn't.

I'm happy to expand on this for you but thought this is a good starting point to help you understand that hallucinations may not necessarily be just hallucinations in terms of secular views.

Thanks, that is interesting. Fear is a big factor in psychosis. Converting the delusions to demons that are obedient to the name of Jesus gives some assurance to the person. That in turn helps the person get well. On the other hand, religion might also add to the paranoia. The best thing is probably to get the person on anti-psychotics IMO. I never have taken anti-psychotics, but apparently they are very effective.
 
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MishSill

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Thanks, that is interesting. Fear is a big factor in psychosis. Converting the delusions to demons that are obedient to the name of Jesus gives some assurance to the person. That in turn helps the person get well. On the other hand, religion might also add to the paranoia. The best thing is probably to get the person on anti-psychotics IMO. I never have taken anti-psychotics, but apparently they are very effective.

Yes anti-psychotic meds would certainly help the symptoms but won't get to the root cause which means long term use.

I need to make one important point clear here. Converting delusions to demons that are obedient to the name of Jesus Christ is only assurance for believers in Christ.

Deliverence ministries cannot be offered to non-believers without consequences. The biblical basis for this is:

Matthew 12:43-
“When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”

Note there in verse 44 when the evil spirit comes back he finds it "empty". Believers are filled with the Holy Spirit and therefore there is no room for that spirit to reside and the person is sitting under God's protection from the moment they receive Christ into their lives.

All the people who I ministered to, at the very least, had a belief in Jesus Christ. For those who believed, I helped them to first come into a relationship with Christ before continuing in ministry.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I noticed this thread and had some thoughts and questions on this subject


(1) Christian members are often treated rudely on atheist forums.
Regrettably, that appears to be true in numerous cases.

(2) Non-Christian members are almost always censored on Christian forums (including this one).
I'm pleased to say that I have rarely experienced censorship on CF, with the notable exception of posts that are construed as violating the "no promotion of homosexuality" rule. That said, in my opinion, there have been some instances of questionable moderation. These are rare, in my experience, but they do happen.

(3) Christian forum members seem to dislike atheists. Several times I've been encouraged to label myself an an "agnostic" or a "seeker", because I seemed too reasonable to be an "atheist". After changing my label on this forum from "seeker" to "atheist", I seem to have experienced more strict enforcement of rules, suspicion of my motives, etc.
This happens too often. One of the most common questions I am asked is why an atheist would join a Christian forum. When I explain that I originally joined as a Christian 8 years ago I am accused of never having been a "true Christian." This is tiresome. Other Christians are not asked to prove that they are "true Christians" (in fact, it's against the rules to accuse someone of not being a true Christian), but I am continually asked to prove that I was sincere in my faith.

(4) Is there really anything that Christians and atheists can discuss about religion? Most atheists know all about Christianity already. Most Christians know all about atheism already. Christians can preach the same things that the atheists have heard and rejected. Atheists can ask Christians for convincing evidence that Christians can't supply.

(5) Does anybody know of a forum where Christians and atheists lie down together like sheep and lions to have fruitful discussions?
There is plenty of scope for an enlightening exchange. I recommend perusing the Philosophy, Ethics and Morality, and Physical and Life Sciences fora.
 
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cloudyday2

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There is plenty of scope for an enlightening exchange. I recommend perusing the Philosophy, Ethics and Morality, and Physical and Life Sciences fora.

Thanks, Archaeoptery, I will check-out those :)
 
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As I was saying

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As an atheist, it's hard for me to be very interested in the devil's alleged strategies. One of the problems with Christianity (and other religions) is that people with mental illness often do not get the treatment they need, because their illness is often misdiagnosed and treated through prayer, deliverance ministries, etc. Even common mental illnesses like depression are sometimes not treated, because Christians tend to believe the devil is responsible for every misfortune.

On the other hand, some people with psychosis are comforted by their Christian beliefs. Trusting that "it is all over for the devil" reduces their fear, and this calm reduces psychosis. The ancient Egyptians had sleep temples where mental illnesses were treated using religious practices ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_temple ). Sometimes religion helps people too.

By saying this, you are showing that your understanding of the subject is found wanting. There are churches who refuse to get involved in the supernatural, preferring instead to express themselves without God's help or involvement. There are others like my church that make the supernatural central to their life and activity because we believe the bible where Jesus says that without him we can do nothing.

A few weeks ago we had a call about a young man who had been beaten by a gang, had suffered brain damage and had gone into a coma and the hospital was not confident that he would be anything other than a vegetable. We were called in and we went and laid hands on him and asked God to provide a miracle of healing. A few days ago the hospital reported that he had gained consciousness and was sitting up and talking.

We made no claim to supernatural power ourselves as we wanted and knew that the healing was the mercy of God as we obeyed his word and went and prayed for him. As the bible says without faith it is impossible to please God which means that with faith it is possible to please God.

God does not give people metal illness but he can use it for good as it says that all things can work together for good for those who love God and are called according to his purposes. That does not mean that what is happening is good, but it can work together for good in the long term.

If God does not give people a mental disorder then it has to come from Satan or the person rebelling against God. It is clear that Satan wants people to believe that he does not exist as that gives him free reign to destroy people's lives. The Bible is so true when it says that Satan is only interested in stealing, killing and destroying. He does that in myriad ways and is allowed to do that because we don't believe he exists.

However, the true believer knows that he exists so they put on the armour of God and as a result are able to stand strong against his attacks.

You make a mistake if you want God to be your GP and dispense aspirins to solve the problem. The first and most important thing is to find out God's will and that is not always as simple as ABC because he has a long term approach to our well-being and there are often factors involved that we know nothing about but which he does. We are taught by the Bible to give thanks in everything good or bad because whatever happens is the will of God for us. As has been said many times we grow in our sufferings, not our successes. This is a maxim of the business world as many rich people have gone broke on the path to riches and it is those times where they have learnt the most.

I am autistic on the high end of the spectrum and the correct diagnosis for it is that it is not a disability but a different ability. Whilst it does have its problems, I focus on its positives as it enables me to hear God and trust him without doubt as my faith is very simple and straightforward.
 
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cloudyday2

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By saying this, you are showing that your understanding of the subject is found wanting. There are churches who refuse to get involved in the supernatural, preferring instead to express themselves without God's help or involvement. There are others like my church that make the supernatural central to their life and activity because we believe the bible where Jesus says that without him we can do nothing.

A few weeks ago we had a call about a young man who had been beaten by a gang, had suffered brain damage and had gone into a coma and the hospital was not confident that he would be anything other than a vegetable. We were called in and we went and laid hands on him and asked God to provide a miracle of healing. A few days ago the hospital reported that he had gained consciousness and was sitting up and talking.

We made no claim to supernatural power ourselves as we wanted and knew that the healing was the mercy of God as we obeyed his word and went and prayed for him. As the bible says without faith it is impossible to please God which means that with faith it is possible to please God.

God does not give people metal illness but he can use it for good as it says that all things can work together for good for those who love God and are called according to his purposes. That does not mean that what is happening is good, but it can work together for good in the long term.

If God does not give people a mental disorder then it has to come from Satan or the person rebelling against God. It is clear that Satan wants people to believe that he does not exist as that gives him free reign to destroy people's lives. The Bible is so true when it says that Satan is only interested in stealing, killing and destroying. He does that in myriad ways and is allowed to do that because we don't believe he exists.

However, the true believer knows that he exists so they put on the armour of God and as a result are able to stand strong against his attacks.

You make a mistake if you want God to be your GP and dispense aspirins to solve the problem. The first and most important thing is to find out God's will and that is not always as simple as ABC because he has a long term approach to our well-being and there are often factors involved that we know nothing about but which he does. We are taught by the Bible to give thanks in everything good or bad because whatever happens is the will of God for us. As has been said many times we grow in our sufferings, not our successes. This is a maxim of the business world as many rich people have gone broke on the path to riches and it is those times where they have learnt the most.

I am autistic on the high end of the spectrum and the correct diagnosis for it is that it is not a disability but a different ability. Whilst it does have its problems, I focus on its positives as it enables me to hear God and trust him without doubt as my faith is very simple and straightforward.
Thanks, that is a very articulate post. Obviously I don't agree with those ideas, but I'm wrong on many things. :)
 
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Uber Genius

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Graham Oppy, Quinten Smith, Jh Sobel, Antony Flew, JL Mackey, Kai Nielsen, are all great atheist thinkers. Unfortunealy since the mid-1980s we have seen the rise of the New Atheists. They have led with vitriolic poorly thought-out responses to theism filled with fallacy.

On the flip side, Christian pastors are unable to give even a definition of cosmological, or teleological arguments replacing them with mocking representations of atheists as blinded due to their unbelief. They offer no arguments whatsoever then quote from a book that holds zero authority for their atheist interlocutors.

Study of arguments and of informal fallacy appears almost a lost art.

But I have two atheists and an Indo-European pagan attend my men’s group for the last several years. And we discuss epistemology, arguments for and against theism, informal logic, how deductive, inductive and anductive reasoning works. Our conversations are dispassionate for the most part.
 
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